FTB

I've been a lurker for longer than I'd care to admit (just got account though), so I apologise if I'm not doing this right, its my first post.
A bit of backstory, I'm only a teenager... I'm now a qualified mechanic but due to the whole age thing/issue, I've only built a handful of wheels so far, nothing too flash but enough of them to have my own details of how I like my wheels to be. I'm a perfectionist so I need everything to be dialed all the time; this definitely helped with the first build. Keeping this in mind, I'm wanting this particular wheelset I'm building to be 100% perfect. I haven't received my spokes yet but I have the hubs and rims. This set is for the track bike.
It's gonna be a bombproof, somewhat ****** training wheelset for the velodrome we've got here in Auckland, NZ and perhaps even some racing in Cambridge.

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Rims: NOS Ambrosio Nemesis tubs 32h
Hubs: Dura Ace 7600 high flange hubs
DT aerolite spokes with brass polyax nipples and spoke washers

Here's where my issue is if you've made is this far,
I'm convinced on using spoke washers (like those on narrow flanged, steel hubshells, or with 1.8mm spoke) at the head of the spoke by the hub for the best fit possible, but since DT Aerolites are supposedly 2.3mm across the bladed portion (CX Rays 2.2mm) and the inner diameter of spoke washers (DT ones) is 2.2mm, I wasn't sure they would fit??? Assuming the brass of the washers is malleable enough, would I be able to just force it on or would this deform the washer rendering it useless? Has anyone tried this?

I guess the question is, had anyone used Aerolties or CX Rays with spoke head washers?

And another Q, I've been told that 90kgF is good for the Nemesis rims but other threads/forums (VSalon of the top of my head, but can't link yet; need 10 posts) have said about 100-110kgF IIRC which sounds more realistic but does 32h have something to do with this? Any experience with this?


And to the mods, sorry, I know there probably is a wheelbuilding forum but I couldn't find it. If you would be so kind as to move it to there or even SS/FG if you think that'd be best that'd be awesome.
Cheers,

Luke

dsbrantjr

"Force it on" and "Bicycle" usually don't go well together.

Dan Burkhart 

I have built a lot of track wheels with Dura Ace high flange hubs and CX Ray spokes. The spoke head washers are completely unnecessary for this application, but I can tell you that the brass spoke head washers that I have will fit easily on the elbow of 13 gauge spokes, so they would certainly fit on a spoke with a 2.3mm wide bladed section. Sorry, I don't remember the brand of the washers.
The only time I use washers is for thin hub flanges or spokes with long elbows such as some of the old stock DT Swiss spokes I have laying around. If you see a gap between the inside of the elbow and the flange when the spoke is inserted and turned into position, there may be a benefit to installing washers, but I have never had that issue with those builds.

3alarmer 

...I've built some wheels with DT bladed spokes ( I forget if they were the ones you name). I did not use washers. My impression is that this might be gilding the lily.

...again, this is only from personal experience and reading. In general, as you are doubtless aware, fewer spokes in a wheel require higher spoke tensions. the rim makers are all over the map on tensioning, and they tend to be conservative. I think you'll agree that iff you were a rim manufacturer, you would prefer that the spokes in any given wheel fail in preference to your rim. Because you are not guaranteeing the spokes.

Be careful when you read the tensions on your bladed spokes, because it's not hard to get it wrong because of orientation of tensiometer to blade. Again, you probably know this.

FTB

Thanks for the replies from everyone so far

Good Point dsbrantjr, if something is difficult, you're doing it wrong, right. The washers (if they were too tight) would probably deform and not give me the results i'm looking for.


Thanks a lot, man. Great to know that with CX Rays I shouldn't need washers, since the Aerolites I'm planning on using, if they ever arrive, have shorter elbows that CX rays meaning the fit would be even tighter.


Thanks for being nice. You're probably right. Sounds like washers won't be necessary either. They do look hella purdy though.

Yes can agree on both parts.
90kgF x 32spokes is 900N x 32 = 28,800 N of force in one wheel
115kgF x 24 spokes is 27600 N
Sounds like this would be about right I guess. With tensioning I was hoping to get away with about 100 kegs, hoping that the double eyelets could take it, but this wouldn't exactly make a stiffer wheel anyways, in fact less stiff IIRC and I can't get a hold of Ambrosio to ask them (have they gone under?)

Thanks tons, guys.

Bill Kapaun

2.2mm or 2.3mm, both numbers are rounded to the nearest 0.1mm.
0.1mm is only .004". They may be slightly more/less than that in reality.
IF brass washers, the steel spoke is noticeably harder.

FTB

Thanks, Bill good info re rounding. Are you saying that in practice, the CX Rays and Aerolties have the ~same dimensions? Cheers

Bill Kapaun

No.
What if one is 2.151 mm and the other 2.349?
In practice, I don't use bladed spokes, so I have none to measure.

Andrew R Stewart 

The part about " I'm now a qualified mechanic" and "I'm a perfectionist so I need everything to be dialed all the time" is what I picked up on. I'd like to hear back from the OP after a few decades in the trenches about these statements.

Perfection is a worthy goal, but as we are humans assembling products made by humans, a goal that is somewhat vapor. Pros learn the fine line between good enough and "perfection". They learn this faster when they run their own business. I wish the OP a long and productive career in this industry. Andy

Bill Kapaun

+1
Old dogs still see new tricks.

Dan Burkhart 

In my experience, the Aerolites and CX Ray are close enough to be interchangeable. I do lots of wheel repairs, and replacing a broken Aerolite with a CX Ray makes for a virtually undetectable repair.
I have calibrated my tension meters to both spokes in my calibration jig and they read identical across the board.
I can bust out the micrometer later and do comparison measurements.

Bike Gremlin

With hub flange hols getting rather wide (2.5, or 2.6 mm on Dura Ace track hubs), I'd go with spokes that are wider at their elbow, at least if durability is a concern.
I'd also go with 36 spokes for training - breakage of one spoke lets you continue the ride, without any rim brake rub, not to mention tyre rubbing the frame.

Will washers help (if they can be fitted)? Maybe - but not nearly as much as using spokes that are wider at their elbows will - at least in terms of spoke durability.

davidad

I've only built 35 or 40 wheels and never had a use for spoke washers. The wheels have always held up for tens of thousands of miles.

FTB

My apologies, my intention was not to pretend I knew everything by any means, that is certainly not true, I was only trying to get my point across that I'm not still learning how to change a tube (because of my age and that newbie tag). I know how knowledgeable people can be on this forum so I thought I'd ask how everyone felt about the subject of washers; and thanks for everyone who has replied to this thread, helping me, you have only affirmed this.
The perfectionist part was more that if spoke washers may improve the reliability of this wheelset, I would definitely be wanting to use them.

Thanks man

FTB

Thanks, Dan that'd be really helpful for me if you wouldn't mind, cheers.

Would you suggest something like an alpine in this case if I were to go down this route? Thinking that I'm pretty set on bladed spokes for this one, though. Cheers


Were there specific hubs you used for most of these builds? Flange thickness or far more likely, build quality may be partially to thank? I'm hoping I've got a little bit of both of those things but I think it was Dan who said he has built with my hubs before without washers so it looks like it may be on me for this one

I think the consensus is that spoke washers aren't really needed, right?
I may still use them since Gremlin mentioned the spoke hole diameter, and washers are needed on 1.8mm spoke in holes meant for 2mm spokes, so to me i would seem logical that I may as well use washers designed to be used with 2mm spokes that are being used in hole meant for/compatible with 13 gauge or larger spokes? Thoughts?
Thanks again

Luke

Dan Burkhart 

I just grabbed a random sample of each and came up with this.
Aerolite 2.25 x .91
CX Ray 2.19 x .92

Bike Gremlin

For training, as a wise friend said: "the more difficult it is, the more recreational it is" (to translate from Serbian). I wouldn't be too concerned with aero spokes on training wheels.
I don't know that alpine are bladed.

I've built wheels with Dura Ace 7710 and 7600. One with 36, the other using 32 spokes (couldn't source 36 spoked version at the time if memory serves me). Spokes used with both were DT Swiss swagged spokes in 2 mm version (2.0 - 1.8 - 2.0 - model "Competition"). They have held up well (so far so good).

FTB

Sweet, thanks. the Difference seems rather negligible. I doubt cheap brass washers have a tolerance of less than 0.05mm anyways

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FTB

Good advice, thanks. I wouldn't normally even consider bladed spokes, but I'm getting a steal on them. If they never get dispatched though, I'll move to round for this set for sure. FWIW I'm getting them for less than DT Champion SG spokes from my LBS

I use super heavy training wheels on my road bike too. Love switching to a faster set of alloys for race day.

mrrabbit 

You don't need the spoke head washers.

=8-|

FTB

Seems to be the consensus. Thanks for replying