Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Bicycle Mechanics
Reload this Page >

Can I use Shimano SIS downtube shifters with a non-SIS rear derailleur?

Notices
Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

Can I use Shimano SIS downtube shifters with a non-SIS rear derailleur?

Old 11-09-20, 10:28 PM
  #1  
the sci guy 
bill nyecycles
Thread Starter
 
the sci guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Houston TX
Posts: 3,078
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 655 Post(s)
Liked 210 Times in 110 Posts
Can I use Shimano SIS downtube shifters with a non-SIS rear derailleur?

Subject says it all.

Would love to find some 600 SIS downtube shifters to swap out for the 600 friction ones but not have to replace the 600 friction rear derailleur.

yay or nay? Will it work or are they incompatible?
__________________
Twitter@theSurlyBiker
Instagram@theSurlyBiker
the sci guy is offline  
Old 11-09-20, 11:07 PM
  #2  
Jeff Wills
Insane Bicycle Mechanic
 
Jeff Wills's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: other Vancouver
Posts: 9,561
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 684 Post(s)
Liked 332 Times in 221 Posts
If the shifters have a "friction/SIS" switch, just leave them in friction mode.

I'm pretty sure the big change with Shimano SIS rear derailleurs was the "Centeron" floating upper pulley. There might have been changes in the cage motion or ratio but I'm not sure.
__________________
Jeff Wills

Comcast nuked my web page. It will return soon..
Jeff Wills is offline  
Old 11-10-20, 06:36 AM
  #3  
DorkDisk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Kips Bay, NY
Posts: 1,926

Bikes: Ritchey Swiss Cross | Teesdale Kona Hot | Haro Extreme | Specialized Stumpjumper Comp | Cannondale F1000 | Shogun 1000 | Cannondale M500 | Norco Charger | Marin Muirwoods 29er | Hiawatha 3sp | Shogun Kaze | Breezer Lightning

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 470 Post(s)
Liked 636 Times in 339 Posts
Cannot comment on your specific case, but I've run non-indexed derailleurs (Suntour VX, generics) with indexed shifters (XT thumbs) with luck (and clicks)

YMMV
DorkDisk is offline  
Old 11-10-20, 07:54 AM
  #4  
rccardr 
aka: Dr. Cannondale
 
rccardr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 6,539

Bikes: Lots. Just...lots.

Mentioned: 184 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1555 Post(s)
Liked 1,002 Times in 468 Posts
Which non-indexing RD are you using? Most do not have a B screw, some do not have a cable tension adjuster. Both of those are useful when setting up an indexing RD.
As you are aware, there may also be a difference in cable pull needed by the RD per shift vs cable pull provided by the indexing lever per shift.
Additionally, many older Shimano friction units used a 4.5mm fixing bolt to attach them to the frame braze-on, while many if not all indexing shifters use a standard 5mm fixing bolt.
Some of the friction shifters also use a Shimano-specific braze on design while all indexing shifters use a standard 'Italian style' braze on.
So you may have to alter your frame braze-on in order to attach the shifters.
__________________
Hard at work in the Secret Underground Laboratory...
rccardr is offline  
Old 11-10-20, 09:24 AM
  #5  
Crankycrank
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 2,429
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 470 Post(s)
Liked 349 Times in 276 Posts
I'm going to say it should work as the 600 derailleurs had the same pull ratio (1.7) as all Shimano Road and Mountain derailleurs for that period that I could find and up to about 2009 when some changed. But as mentioned by rccardr the frame shifter bosses may be different.

Last edited by Crankycrank; 11-10-20 at 09:28 AM.
Crankycrank is offline  
Old 11-10-20, 10:31 AM
  #6  
70sSanO
Senior Member
 
70sSanO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Mission Viejo
Posts: 3,846

Bikes: 1986 Cannondale SR400 (Flat bar commuter), 1988 Cannondale Criterium XTR, 1992 Serotta T-Max, 1995 Trek 970

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1145 Post(s)
Liked 990 Times in 644 Posts
So you have a pre-SIS, late 70’s/early 80’s, RD and you want to use it with SIS 600, 1985+, shifters in index mode? Example: RD-6207 with SL-6208.

If you could turn back the clock 30+ years you would get hundreds of responses, since a lot of people wanted to run non-index RD’s with index shifters back then.

My response would be no. Why would Shimano have waited until Suntour’s patent ran out if they could just use any RD with index shifting?

John

Edit added: If you just want friction why would you go to Shimano index shifters? Simplex Retrofriction were about the best. Even Shimano L-422 were better since they were spring loaded to offset the derailler springs. Very sweet and relatively unknown friction shifters.

Last edited by 70sSanO; 11-10-20 at 10:40 AM.
70sSanO is offline  
Old 11-10-20, 12:03 PM
  #7  
the sci guy 
bill nyecycles
Thread Starter
 
the sci guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Houston TX
Posts: 3,078
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 655 Post(s)
Liked 210 Times in 110 Posts
Originally Posted by 70sSanO View Post
So you have a pre-SIS, late 70ís/early 80ís, RD and you want to use it with SIS 600, 1985+, shifters in index mode? Example: RD-6207 with SL-6208.

If you could turn back the clock 30+ years you would get hundreds of responses, since a lot of people wanted to run non-index RDís with index shifters back then.

My response would be no. Why would Shimano have waited until Suntourís patent ran out if they could just use any RD with index shifting?

John

Edit added: If you just want friction why would you go to Shimano index shifters? Simplex Retrofriction were about the best. Even Shimano L-422 were better since they were spring loaded to offset the derailler springs. Very sweet and relatively unknown friction shifters.
The RD is RD-6207 with a date code of June1985. I believe the frame is an '87. I don't have a date read for the downtube shifters right at the moment.
I'm not sure where the message got mixed up but i don't want friction shifters, i want to use indexed shifters (read shifter, anyway), but need to know if i can use them with the non-indexed RD. That's all.
__________________
Twitter@theSurlyBiker
Instagram@theSurlyBiker
the sci guy is offline  
Old 11-10-20, 12:05 PM
  #8  
the sci guy 
bill nyecycles
Thread Starter
 
the sci guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Houston TX
Posts: 3,078
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 655 Post(s)
Liked 210 Times in 110 Posts
Originally Posted by rccardr View Post
Which non-indexing RD are you using? Most do not have a B screw, some do not have a cable tension adjuster. Both of those are useful when setting up an indexing RD.
As you are aware, there may also be a difference in cable pull needed by the RD per shift vs cable pull provided by the indexing lever per shift.
Additionally, many older Shimano friction units used a 4.5mm fixing bolt to attach them to the frame braze-on, while many if not all indexing shifters use a standard 5mm fixing bolt.
Some of the friction shifters also use a Shimano-specific braze on design while all indexing shifters use a standard 'Italian style' braze on.
So you may have to alter your frame braze-on in order to attach the shifters.
Shimano 600 RD-6207 from 1985.
what's the best way to measure the bolts? - what direction do i orient the calipers i mean.
__________________
Twitter@theSurlyBiker
Instagram@theSurlyBiker
the sci guy is offline  
Old 11-10-20, 12:44 PM
  #9  
KCT1986
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 258
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked 55 Times in 43 Posts
Originally Posted by the sci guy View Post
Shimano 600 RD-6207 from 1985.
what's the best way to measure the bolts? - what direction do i orient the calipers i mean.
Don't worry about the mounting bolt it should be the modern standard.

The non-SIS issue is of concern though. The RD-6207 doesn't have a b-screw adjuster, cable tension adjuster or G-pulley (floating) which are all things that were added to aid effective & quiet SIS operations.

Actuation ratio is also an issue. Not sure if there is any info about the ratio of this RD. You could try a search for this.

If you want index shifting, it may be easier to just get a early SIS RD, 640x or 1055 and later should work. Usually you can tell by looking for a cable adjuster.
KCT1986 is offline  
Old 11-10-20, 01:22 PM
  #10  
dedhed
SE Wis
 
dedhed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 7,931

Bikes: '68 Raleigh Sprite, '02 Raleigh C500, '84 Raleigh Gran Prix, '91 Trek 400, 2013 Novara Randonee, 1990 Trek 970

Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1708 Post(s)
Liked 1,359 Times in 880 Posts
See last comment here.

VeloBase.com - Component: Shimano RD-6207, 600EX
dedhed is offline  
Old 11-10-20, 02:47 PM
  #11  
70sSanO
Senior Member
 
70sSanO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Mission Viejo
Posts: 3,846

Bikes: 1986 Cannondale SR400 (Flat bar commuter), 1988 Cannondale Criterium XTR, 1992 Serotta T-Max, 1995 Trek 970

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1145 Post(s)
Liked 990 Times in 644 Posts
Depending on your setup and how much “science” you want to employ in your setup, it “might be theoretically” possible to make it work.

Without a b screw, you just need to stay within the cog specs.

You must have a cassette setup on a freehub or you can’t do it.

Your 6207 needs to be in great shape and you “should” replace the top pulley with a centeron pulley.

You will need to put a cable adjuster in the cable stop on the derailleur. Jagwire makes one that should work.

The science part is being able to measure the amount the derailleur moves for each click of the shifter. With those measurements, checked multiple times, you could re-space each cog to a specific center-to-center based on your measurements.

I’ve never tried this, or even wanted to, but a tight RD and Shifter should consistently replicate the amount of cable pull and derailleur movement.

John
70sSanO is offline  
Old 11-10-20, 03:01 PM
  #12  
rccardr 
aka: Dr. Cannondale
 
rccardr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 6,539

Bikes: Lots. Just...lots.

Mentioned: 184 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1555 Post(s)
Liked 1,002 Times in 468 Posts
And the answer is.....maybe. There is a reason Shimano came out with the 6208 RD when they went indexed. One assumes that is was because it worked better than a 6207.
Best way to check the bolts is to try them in your braze-ons. By 1987, most Shimano setups and frames had standardized to the Italian 5mm braze on.
I would try it anyway and see if it works.
__________________
Hard at work in the Secret Underground Laboratory...
rccardr is offline  
Old 11-10-20, 03:21 PM
  #13  
the sci guy 
bill nyecycles
Thread Starter
 
the sci guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Houston TX
Posts: 3,078
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 655 Post(s)
Liked 210 Times in 110 Posts
Originally Posted by dedhed View Post
website appears to be down?
__________________
Twitter@theSurlyBiker
Instagram@theSurlyBiker
the sci guy is offline  
Old 11-10-20, 03:39 PM
  #14  
dedhed
SE Wis
 
dedhed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 7,931

Bikes: '68 Raleigh Sprite, '02 Raleigh C500, '84 Raleigh Gran Prix, '91 Trek 400, 2013 Novara Randonee, 1990 Trek 970

Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1708 Post(s)
Liked 1,359 Times in 880 Posts
Originally Posted by the sci guy View Post
website appears to be down?
try from here top link.
https://www.google.com/search?client...-6207+velobase
dedhed is offline  
Likes For dedhed:
Old 11-10-20, 03:59 PM
  #15  
dabac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 8,553
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1040 Post(s)
Liked 233 Times in 173 Posts
Iíve used a Shimano 600 Arabesque with a Shiftmate and a 10-spd Campy Shifter and a 10 spd Shimano Cassette. Upshifts were a bit sluggish, but apart from that the setup ran fine. No hints of mismatched actuation ratios.
dabac is offline  
Old 11-10-20, 08:40 PM
  #16  
the sci guy 
bill nyecycles
Thread Starter
 
the sci guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Houston TX
Posts: 3,078
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 655 Post(s)
Liked 210 Times in 110 Posts
Originally Posted by dedhed View Post
great site for info. Funny that the 2nd comment says no but the 4th says yes.
Sigh!
__________________
Twitter@theSurlyBiker
Instagram@theSurlyBiker
the sci guy is offline  
Old 11-10-20, 08:53 PM
  #17  
veganbikes
Clark W. Griswold
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: ,location, location
Posts: 8,824

Bikes: Foundry Chilkoot Ti W/Ultegra Di2, Salsa Timberjack Ti, Cinelli Mash Work RandoCross Fun Time Machine, 1x9 XT Parts Hybrid, Co-Motion Cascadia, Specialized Langster, Phil Wood Apple VeloXS Frame (w/DA 7400), Cilo Road Frame, Proteus frame, Ti 26 MTB

Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2459 Post(s)
Liked 1,488 Times in 994 Posts
I am all for whacky set ups but I would in your case rather have good retro-friction shifters on that derailleur or update the whole shebang if I wanted proper indexing. If your issue is maybe reaching down and fiddling you might consider Gevenalle.

I really love a good friction shift actually, I mean indexing is great and most of my bikes index but a friction front derailleur especially is so great.
veganbikes is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.