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Headset press vs. bearing cup issue.

Old 01-01-21, 02:09 PM
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Murray Missile 
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Headset press vs. bearing cup issue.

I have a "Bike Hand" headset press I bought off Ebay which works well except when used with FSA 1-1/8" threadless headsets. For the low volume of headsets I do I just couldn't justify the cost of a Park, this one was a hard enough pill to swallow. The ID of the neck of the cup that presses into the head tube is just .001" or so smaller than the OD of a short section of the mandrels for the tool. Maybe not that much however, when I use it to press the cups in the tool gets stuck in the cup. I don't do that many headsets a year so I didn't want to spend an arm and a leg for a proper tool but I primarily use FSA when installing 1-1/8" threadless headsets so this is a real PITA, has anyone else encountered this with Park or any other brands? I have had to resort to the old threaded rod, flat washers and hex nuts method for the 1-1/8" FSA sets which is a big PITA as well. I may try removing a little material in the ID of the cups on the next set I do so they'll clear the tool. I don't know how hard it is, probably not that hard if the dings I put in one of the mandrels getting it out of an installed headset cup is any indication, but I suppose I could have my buddy put the two mandrels in his lathe and shave a few thousandths off that area of the tool and then cold blue the bare metal. If anyone is considering buying one of these that's the only issue I've had but it's definitely kind of a big deal.

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Old 01-01-21, 02:57 PM
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I'd probably take a strip of a somewhat finer grit of emery cloth.
"First pass", I'd go lightly around it to show if there's any obvious "high" spot" to concentrate on.
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Old 01-01-21, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun View Post
I'd probably take a strip of a somewhat finer grit of emery cloth.
"First pass", I'd go lightly around it to show if there's any obvious "high" spot" to concentrate on.
Logical advice but unfortunately this isn't just a high spot, the OD on the tool is slightly too large, on both mandrels too. I was a layout inspector in the defense industry for many years and also worked in gage calibration, trust me on this one. The OD of both mandrels is consistent within .0001". I can't measure the ID of the headsets with any confidence of accuracy more than .001, all I have is a set of calipers but from 40+ years experience and "feel" the interference fit is only a few ten thousandths. You can start the cups part way on the mandrels by hand but only .060" to .100" or so before you'd have to force them and once pressed into the head tube you play hell getting the mandrels out. I had one bring the cup back out with it. It's a good thing the neighbor kids weren't walking by that day LOL. No, I'm afraid I'll have to have a little shaved off them in a lathe to do it properly then treat them with some gun bluing.

I guess this is more of a "heads up" for prospective headset press buyers than a "help" post. It's been a great tool with 1" and 1-1/8" threaded headsets but FSA 1-1/8" threadless not so much. I know what I have to do but it sucks that I paid good money for what I thought was the "proper" tool then I have to do this to be able to use it. I wish I could have justified the price of the Park but even with this frustration I still can't. I do have a lot of Park tools so I'm not completely "cheap" but they're ones I use a lot not just 2 or 3 times a year and they replaced the inexpensive ones I had when I first started the hobby that eventually wore out or broke when I started doing more bikes. I've also had to upgrade some of my Park "amateur" tools to their professional grade as time has passed. I hate to say it but some of the Park "home" stuff isn't really anything to write home about either but my new Park pedal wrench looks like something from a Medieval weapons collection LOL. Probably not legal in CA. If it won't get a frozen pedal out the next step is the gas axe!
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Old 01-01-21, 04:43 PM
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The other option is to buy just the Park HHP-2 bushings. $30 may be worth less hassle than getting them to a machine shop and then heat treating them.
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Old 01-01-21, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Murray Missile View Post
Logical advice but unfortunately this isn't just a high spot, the OD on the tool is slightly too large, on both mandrels too. I was a layout inspector in the defense industry for many years and also worked in gage calibration, trust me on this one. The OD of both mandrels is consistent within .0001". I can't measure the ID of the headsets with any confidence of accuracy more than .001, all I have is a set of calipers but from 40+ years experience and "feel" the interference fit is only a few ten thousandths. You can start the cups part way on the mandrels by hand but only .060" to .100" or so before you'd have to force them and once pressed into the head tube you play hell getting the mandrels out. I had one bring the cup back out with it. It's a good thing the neighbor kids weren't walking by that day LOL. No, I'm afraid I'll have to have a little shaved off them in a lathe to do it properly then treat them with some gun bluing.

I guess this is more of a "heads up" for prospective headset press buyers than a "help" post. It's been a great tool with 1" and 1-1/8" threaded headsets but FSA 1-1/8" threadless not so much. I know what I have to do but it sucks that I paid good money for what I thought was the "proper" tool then I have to do this to be able to use it. I wish I could have justified the price of the Park but even with this frustration I still can't. I do have a lot of Park tools so I'm not completely "cheap" but they're ones I use a lot not just 2 or 3 times a year and they replaced the inexpensive ones I had when I first started the hobby that eventually wore out or broke when I started doing more bikes. I've also had to upgrade some of my Park "amateur" tools to their professional grade as time has passed. I hate to say it but some of the Park "home" stuff isn't really anything to write home about either but my new Park pedal wrench looks like something from a Medieval weapons collection LOL. Probably not legal in CA. If it won't get a frozen pedal out the next step is the gas axe!
Sounds like the Peter principle.
If you aren't measuring in a temperature controlled environment, you're dreaming about measuring to 0.0001".
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Old 01-01-21, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun View Post
Sounds like the Peter principle.
If you aren't measuring in a temperature controlled environment, you're dreaming about measuring to 0.0001".
Another issue is that something can be quite out-of-round but still measure a constant diameter when measuring across two points: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curve_of_constant_width
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Old 01-01-21, 06:25 PM
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Try a little grease?
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Old 01-01-21, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun View Post
Sounds like the Peter principle.
If you aren't measuring in a temperature controlled environment, you're dreaming about measuring to 0.0001".
Peter Principle eh? So, may I take it you're saying since I've been in the same field for most of my working years and never became president of the company I must be incompetent? Nice.

If you go back and reread my earlier reply I said their OD was consistent within .0001", nowhere did I say they were within "specification" within .0001" because I have no clue what the spec is. The measurements I took all fell within the same graduation line on the ten thousands scale on the mic which would imply that they were within .0001" of each other. Additionally .0001" is within what most facilities allow as standard instrument error in a production environment. I stand by my assessment that these are round within .0001.
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Old 01-01-21, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by dsbrantjr View Post
Another issue is that something can be quite out-of-round but still measure a constant diameter when measuring across two points: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curve_of_constant_width
True, that's why you measure in multiple points. Machine Shop Inspection 101.
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Old 01-01-21, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by dedhed View Post
Try a little grease?
LOL, I know, it has to be asked and a fair question to which I can gladly say, yes. I've greased the snot out of it, I didn't have to use as big of a hammer to get it out that time.

The tool shouldn't fit the cup that tight, that section is just there to keep it kind of centered so the step that does the pushing doesn't get off to one side and crush the sidewalls of the cup. I've compared it to other presses and they don't have that larger step there, it's just one diameter for the 1-1/8" headsets. That's what this one is going to look like soon.
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Old 01-01-21, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by aggiegrads View Post
The other option is to buy just the Park HHP-2 bushings. $30 may be worth less hassle than getting them to a machine shop and then heat treating them.
Getting mine machined is no big deal and from as easily as they dented when I drove them out they appear to be fairly mild steel with no heat treat now so that's not an issue but if the Park bushings would fit it's certainly worth looking into. Thanks for the suggestion. You wouldn't happen to have access to the ID on those? $30 would be cheap unless they won't fit.
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Old 01-01-21, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Murray Missile View Post
Getting mine machined is no big deal and from as easily as they dented when I drove them out they appear to be fairly mild steel with no heat treat now so that's not an issue but if the Park bushings would fit it's certainly worth looking into. Thanks for the suggestion. You wouldn't happen to have access to the ID on those? $30 would be cheap unless they won't fit.
I measure about 0.870. This is based on a 3/4 hex shaft.

ODs are 1.010, 1.166, and 1.292
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Old 01-01-21, 09:27 PM
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I would do what Bill K suggested. 80 grit production cloth will do a fine job. Although the corner will get missed so perhaps a file if the mandrel isn't hardened (and I don't see why they would be). Remember that the headset's fit to the head tube is dependent on the face and ream job VASTLY more then how the tool fits the headset. Reduce the tool's OD slightly and stop worrying.

I've had a few headsets fit the installing tool (I've used too many tools to remember which was with what headset) snugly enough so that with the compression of the cup's insertion the tool became stuck. Light taps with a brass punch always unstuck the tool and I don't remember any cup loosening at the same time.

I'm at about 500' elevation. You must be close by at 700'... PM me if you want to use my lathe to skim off the tool Andy
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Old 01-02-21, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
I would do what Bill K suggested. 80 grit production cloth will do a fine job. Although the corner will get missed so perhaps a file if the mandrel isn't hardened (and I don't see why they would be). Remember that the headset's fit to the head tube is dependent on the face and ream job VASTLY more then how the tool fits the headset. Reduce the tool's OD slightly and stop worrying.

I've had a few headsets fit the installing tool (I've used too many tools to remember which was with what headset) snugly enough so that with the compression of the cup's insertion the tool became stuck. Light taps with a brass punch always unstuck the tool and I don't remember any cup loosening at the same time.

I'm at about 500' elevation. You must be close by at 700'... PM me if you want to use my lathe to skim off the tool Andy
Thanks for the offer, I have it covered.

Well, as I have been known to do from time to time I'll make a short story long........ I'm not "worried", I'm aggravated. This isn't a case of the tool being a little snug after the cup is pressed in, it's a case of the tool being as tight in the cup as the cup is in the headset after the cup is pressed in. So far it's only been on FSA threadless headsets, I have installed other brands of threadless and countless threaded headsets with no issue. One non-FSA threadless set had a very slight drag when I removed the tool but it came right out. With most of the FSA sets I've tried you can't even slide the cup over the tool more than a few thousandths at the transition from radius to straight ID by hand, it is an interference fit. On the one set I did actually install with it I could slide the cup onto the tool by hand with some effort, it was a snug fit and I only pushed it on far enough to make sure it was straight with the tool. I should have known better than to proceed as the tool become stuck in the cup after installation, that's the ne that puled the cup back out. I greased the tool before the 2nd installation, the result being removal of the tool only required the "LFH" instead of the "BFH". If it were a slight interference from a high spot then BIll K's initial response would be the logical course of action and I probably did a poor job of explaining that, my apologies for that. However, this is going to require the removal of several thousandths of material from the diameter of the tools to allow usage with FSA headsets. This is not a precision tool, it's a press, they could have left a lot more clearance to allow for variations between headset manufacturers and the tool would still perform as required. I can reduce the OD to that of the feature directly below it with no detrimental effect on the function of the tool and probably will.

I guess I took the scenic route to: "If you are considering purchase of this tool be aware you may have issues and here's why." In retrospect I should have made quite a different post but that ship has sailed.
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Old 01-03-21, 01:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Murray Missile View Post
I guess I took the scenic route to: "If you are considering purchase of this tool be aware you may have issues and here's why." In retrospect I should have made quite a different post but that ship has sailed.
Don't worry, everyone still would have jumped all over the post

So, I know you've got it covered, but let me give you an alternate approach to addressing the problem: instead of turning down the mandrel, how about making it larger? Okay, not really, but it might be easier to make a washer that's the same ID as the next smaller size feature's OD. And make the washer smaller than the bearing cup race dia. Yeah, it would be a pretty narrow washer, but you don't really have to worry about it bending since it's well supported by the mandrel.

Turning the mandrel vs. cutting sheet stock, depends on which tool is more easily available.
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Old 01-03-21, 07:25 AM
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I have the same problem with a Hozan press and Campy cups. Only mine wouldn't get stuck. It would cock a little and send the cup in crooked. I modified a thick washer to fit in the cup and catch a step on the tool. More or less what @Geekage recommends above.
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Old 01-03-21, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Geekage View Post
Don't worry, everyone still would have jumped all over the post

So, I know you've got it covered, but let me give you an alternate approach to addressing the problem: instead of turning down the mandrel, how about making it larger? Okay, not really, but it might be easier to make a washer that's the same ID as the next smaller size feature's OD. And make the washer smaller than the bearing cup race dia. Yeah, it would be a pretty narrow washer, but you don't really have to worry about it bending since it's well supported by the mandrel.

Turning the mandrel vs. cutting sheet stock, depends on which tool is more easily available.
Originally Posted by gearbasher View Post
I have the same problem with a Hozan press and Campy cups. Only mine wouldn't get stuck. It would cock a little and send the cup in crooked. I modified a thick washer to fit in the cup and catch a step on the tool. More or less what @Geekage recommends above.
Thanks guys I very much appreciate your input and had considered a similar solution but my machinist works cheap. I hand him the pieces, he hands them back a day or two later and I hand him a package of brown bottles containing his favorite liquid out of my refrigerator for his time.

If anyone cares this is the Bike Hand press I have. IIRC I paid around $55 for it vs. $180 for the lowest priced Park I could find. I do just enough headsets in a year I convinced myself $55 was worth it but not enough I could talk me self into forking out $180.
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