Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Bicycle Mechanics
Reload this Page >

Do I need a 130 rear spacing? 10 speed conversion

Notices
Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

Do I need a 130 rear spacing? 10 speed conversion

Old 01-02-21, 10:20 PM
  #1  
jonny7
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 216

Bikes: 1994 Cadex CFR3, 1993 Cannondale R600, 2006 Scott CR1 SL, Rossin x 2, Bertrand GB3000, Gardin

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Liked 35 Times in 23 Posts
Do I need a 130 rear spacing? 10 speed conversion

Hi all, I've decided to go 10sp on my favorite CV bike. The bike had a Dura-Ace 7400 groupset, I'm changing only the cassette and the RD. I had wheels that were already somewhat modern, with Shimano WH-RS10 hubs.

I've successfully installed the wheel with a 6700 cassette without having to cold set anything. But now the last sprocket looks awfully close to the chainstay. This is my first attempt at modernizing so my judgement might be off a bit. Does this look too close? And would a 130 spacing change anything since the skewer kind of tighten everthing in the end?

Here's a not so clear picture, and the links to 2 youtube vids.



Front view :

Rear view:

What do you guys think?

Oh, and if anybody knows where I can find a cable anchor for the DA-7900 rear derailleur, hit me up!

jonny7 is offline  
Old 01-02-21, 11:01 PM
  #2  
79pmooney
A Roadie Forever
 
79pmooney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 9,417

Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder

Mentioned: 102 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2819 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,330 Times in 899 Posts
Drape a chain over the cog and chairing, run it through the derailleur and take a look. (You don't need to connect it. Hold the wheel and push the pedal. Does the chain miss the frame? Are you comfortable with the clearance you have? (Is the paint sacrosanct?)

There's probably a number in some book dictating the clearance you "need". I never read it. I find a chain that runs clean is all I need.

Now I am assuming your bike is spaced 126mm. You may find doing the spread to get the wheel in gets old, especially when you flat late in a hard ride. Also, when you stretch the frame, the dropouts go out of alignment. They are now doing their best to bend your rear axle a little. Probably not an issue, but the axle would rather be straight. Bearings will also be a little out of alignment.
79pmooney is online now  
Old 01-03-21, 12:47 AM
  #3  
02Giant 
Home School Valedictorian
 
02Giant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Iowa
Posts: 2,974

Bikes: 13 Orbea Orca 02 Giant Cypress 88 Mongoose ATB 79 frame-built to 80 spec. Schwinn Traveller

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1427 Post(s)
Liked 502 Times in 332 Posts
If too close, is there room to go down in size on the high gear cog?
__________________
Stop The Squeal

I ain't broke and I ain't hungry but I'm close enough to care
tp





02Giant is offline  
Old 01-03-21, 01:38 AM
  #4  
blamester
Blamester
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Ireland
Posts: 881

Bikes: Peugeot teamline

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 204 Post(s)
Liked 64 Times in 53 Posts
Put a chain on it and see. I have 10 speed on a 126mm frame and it works fine. But I will eventually cold set it because it is a pain if you remove the wheels regularly.
blamester is offline  
Old 01-03-21, 02:02 AM
  #5  
icemilkcoffee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 553
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 315 Post(s)
Liked 224 Times in 143 Posts
Originally Posted by jonny7 View Post
Hi all, I've decided to go 10sp on my favorite CV bike. The bike had a Dura-Ace 7400 groupset
If you had a 7400 with 8 speed cassette, then it's already 130mm rear spacing.
icemilkcoffee is offline  
Old 01-03-21, 02:19 AM
  #6  
Bill Kapaun
Really Old Senior Member
 
Bill Kapaun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Mid Willamette Valley, Orygun
Posts: 12,587

Bikes: 87 RockHopper,2008 Specialized Globe. Both upgraded to 9 speeds.

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1312 Post(s)
Liked 517 Times in 397 Posts
Originally Posted by icemilkcoffee View Post
If you had a 7400 with 8 speed cassette, then it's already 130mm rear spacing.
7400 was only 6 or 7 speed Uniglide type.
7402/3 was 8 speed.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf
FH-7400-6_7.pdf (285.4 KB, 6 views)

Last edited by Bill Kapaun; 01-03-21 at 02:23 AM.
Bill Kapaun is online now  
Old 01-03-21, 07:36 AM
  #7  
mitchmellow62
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 191
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 54 Post(s)
Liked 21 Times in 18 Posts
As others have said, I'd put a chain on and see if it clears. It looks tight. You may want to take a look at the following thread that addresses modifying a 130 mm 10 spd hub to fit 126 mm spacing: 10-speeds on a 126mm hub SUCCESS
mitchmellow62 is offline  
Old 01-03-21, 09:15 AM
  #8  
Crankycrank
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 2,106
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 383 Post(s)
Liked 246 Times in 191 Posts
Another vote for just putting a chain on it and making sure it clears in the big chainring-small cog combo in particular. Make sure you go through all the gears just to be sure everything shifts OK in both extremes of cross chaining. Even better is to then go for a ride just to make sure the real life experience of the chain bouncing around and shifting under pressure does not cause contact. If it all works IMO it's best to get the frame cold set and dropouts aligned to prevent stress on the frame and axle. Not cold setting can put some extra stress on the frame that may not cause any issues or could cause a crack in tubing joints that could take years to show up and misaligned dropouts can cause a slight bending in the axle which shortens bearing life so it just makes more sense to set it right to begin with and prevent possible issues. With the old 126mm freewheel hubs, not having aligned dropouts would cause a few axles to break but with a cassette setup broken axles are far less likely but it can still affect bearing wear.
Crankycrank is offline  
Old 01-03-21, 09:40 AM
  #9  
JohnDThompson 
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 22,419

Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.

Mentioned: 131 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2522 Post(s)
Liked 1,087 Times in 702 Posts
Cold-setting the frame won't change the clearance issue. If you decide the small sprocket is too close to the chainstay, you'll need to add a spacer to the drive side of the axle and re-dish the wheel.
JohnDThompson is offline  
Old 01-03-21, 09:53 AM
  #10  
Crankycrank
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 2,106
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 383 Post(s)
Liked 246 Times in 191 Posts
Originally Posted by JohnDThompson View Post
Cold-setting the frame won't change the clearance issue. I
Agreed but if jonny7 finds there is no issue with chain clearance then cold setting is a good idea.
Crankycrank is offline  
Old 01-03-21, 10:03 AM
  #11  
cxwrench
Senior Member
 
cxwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Nor-Cal
Posts: 1,502

Bikes: lots

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 641 Post(s)
Liked 754 Times in 432 Posts
Originally Posted by 02Giant View Post
If too close, is there room to go down in size on the high gear cog?
What? How would that make any difference? He probably has an 11 now. If it's a 12 then he'd have an 11-13 jump. It looks fine to me.
cxwrench is online now  
Old 01-03-21, 10:18 AM
  #12  
Iride01
Hits [ENTER] b4 thinking
 
Iride01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 6,653

Bikes: '20 Tarmac Disc Comp '91 Schwinn Paramount '78 Raleigh Competition GS

Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2575 Post(s)
Liked 1,259 Times in 922 Posts
So you have to ask us before you put a chain on it and see? Why are you trying to start an argument. Just put on the chain and what ever else you need, and go from there. Your position of observation is much better than ours.

I will say I'm thinking you have a 126mm rear spread much like my Raleigh Comp GS has. It has more than enough natural spring in the stays to easily spread itself to 130 when I wider hub is stuffed up in it. I never cold set mine. It just doesn't need it for the weight and conditions I subject it to.
Iride01 is offline  
Old 01-03-21, 01:58 PM
  #13  
jonny7
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 216

Bikes: 1994 Cadex CFR3, 1993 Cannondale R600, 2006 Scott CR1 SL, Rossin x 2, Bertrand GB3000, Gardin

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Liked 35 Times in 23 Posts
Originally Posted by mitchmellow62 View Post
As others have said, I'd put a chain on and see if it clears. It looks tight. You may want to take a look at the following thread that addresses modifying a 130 mm 10 spd hub to fit 126 mm spacing: 10-speeds on a 126mm hub SUCCESS
Thanks for this. Interesting thread!

Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
So you have to ask us before you put a chain on it and see? Why are you trying to start an argument.
Obviously no, but there were 1 or 2 things that encouraged me to ask the opinion of wiser mechanics. I like to play on my bikes and I'm learning everyday but this is my first attempt at conversion and I was wondering if I was missing something obvious. This, and also I didn't have a 10sp road chain at hand to test it right away, so before spending money I thought it wasn't a bad idea to ask. And my RD is currently missing the cable bolt so I can't set up the whole thing.

Eventually found a 10sp Deore chain (HG-54) to do the test. I'm assuming the chain is pretty much the same? Here's what it looks like. Seems close but it looks like it's perhaps okay.





And the chain does clear the chain stay. I guess the next step would be a road test.

Last edited by jonny7; 01-03-21 at 02:22 PM.
jonny7 is offline  
Old 01-03-21, 02:02 PM
  #14  
squirtdad
Senior Member
 
squirtdad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: San Jose (Willow Glen) Ca
Posts: 7,446

Bikes: 85 team Miyata (modern 5800 105) , '84 Team Miyata,(dura ace old school) '82 nishiski,

Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1319 Post(s)
Liked 584 Times in 418 Posts
just remember that the higer number of gears you go, the more aligned every thing has to be to keep the indexing working. I had minimal problems with a 9 speed and just hand spreading the chain to fit the wheel in. When I went 11 speed (different bike) i had it cold set, aligned and derailier hanger adjusted to ensure good indexing

ymmv
__________________
Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can
squirtdad is online now  
Old 01-03-21, 02:18 PM
  #15  
KCT1986
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 182
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Liked 23 Times in 19 Posts
Based on the pic, it looks like the clearance between the chain and dropout is about what you would expect for a road bike with 9 or 10 speed cassettes. How the chainstay & seatstay are connected to the dropout may be different for newer frames but nothing you can do to this frame to change that.

As for the thread about respacing a hub for 126mm, that thread entails moving the freehub body CLOSER to the dropout. Don't think that is what you're trying to achieve.
KCT1986 is offline  
Old 01-03-21, 03:03 PM
  #16  
Crankycrank
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 2,106
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 383 Post(s)
Liked 246 Times in 191 Posts
Originally Posted by jonny7 View Post
And the chain does clear the chain stay. I guess the next step would be a road test.
Looks like you have enough clearance to me but yes, a road test is needed to be sure.
Crankycrank is offline  
Likes For Crankycrank:
Old 01-05-21, 10:55 PM
  #17  
jonny7
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 216

Bikes: 1994 Cadex CFR3, 1993 Cannondale R600, 2006 Scott CR1 SL, Rossin x 2, Bertrand GB3000, Gardin

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Liked 35 Times in 23 Posts
Originally Posted by squirtdad View Post
just remember that the higer number of gears you go, the more aligned every thing has to be to keep the indexing working. I had minimal problems with a 9 speed and just hand spreading the chain to fit the wheel in. When I went 11 speed (different bike) i had it cold set, aligned and derailier hanger adjusted to ensure good indexing

ymmv
I think the derailleur hanger might indeed need to be realigned. It looks like the current position of the derailleur creates a tension outwards which results in ghost downshifting, even if my levers are tight on the frame.
jonny7 is offline  
Old 01-06-21, 12:58 AM
  #18  
conspiratemus1
Used to be Conspiratemus
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hamilton ON Canada
Posts: 1,494
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 285 Post(s)
Liked 236 Times in 157 Posts
In judging chain clearance, remember that the the chain rotates, or "leans", briefly for a instant just as it begins its shift from the smallest sprocket to the next larger. The outer edge of the top of the link protrudes maybe 0.5 mm closer to the seat stay than it did when running on the sprocket. This rotation usually involves just one link. Once the chain starts to climb onto the next cog, the rotation cancels and it of course is now moving inboard, out of the way. So the outward "lean" of the chain is just a flick at the very beginning of the shift while it is still fully on the smallest sprocket, before it starts to move in. If the timing of a particular shift produces maximum rotation in an outer link just as it passes the seat stay, it can catch. The next test shift might involve rotation of an inner link, which won't catch being narrower. So fouling will likely be intermittent when you are testing it. And in real life on the road, it may work nearly all the time then suddenly jam if it is shucking side to side during its passage from the jockey wheel onto the smallest sprocket. It's most likely to jam in the big chainring because on the big ring the chain comes off the small sprocket a tiny bit higher. So always test chain clearance during shifting with the chain on the big ring.

The clearance you need does depend on the size of the smallest sprocket -- the smaller the sprocket, the wider the space available for the chain to lean into before it hits the inward sloping seat stay.

The clearance you have looks OK. On our tandems, I go for the the smallest possible clearance, transferring spacers from the right side to the left where possible, in order to reduce the asymmetry in the wheel. This would be especially desirable for you: squeezing those wide 8-10-speed cassettes into 126 mm of OLD makes a highly asymmetric wheel and I'd be surprised if you don't start breaking left-side spokes or have trouble keeping them from unscrewing and making the wheel wobble. If you have to put a spacer in the right stack to keep the chain from fouling, the wheel will be even more asymmetric.

Last edited by conspiratemus1; 01-06-21 at 01:03 AM.
conspiratemus1 is offline  
Old 01-06-21, 08:21 AM
  #19  
70sSanO
Senior Member
 
70sSanO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Mission Viejo
Posts: 3,231

Bikes: 1986 Cannondale SR400 (Flat bar commuter), 1988 Cannondale Criterium XTR, 1992 Serotta T-Max, 1995 Trek 970

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 891 Post(s)
Liked 679 Times in 460 Posts
Worst case is getting a .5mm thick shim washer for the DS. If the wheel currently fits into the dropouts easily, .5mm won’t be a problem.

Had to do that on a bike when I went to a Sachs Aris 7 speed freewheel; even with a 9 speed chain.

And yes, the miamijim thread was all about getting the freehub body closer to the DS dropout. With 126mm Cannondales, that thread was very pertinent for me.

John
70sSanO is online now  
Old 01-06-21, 03:50 PM
  #20  
mitchmellow62
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 191
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 54 Post(s)
Liked 21 Times in 18 Posts
Originally Posted by 70sSanO View Post
Worst case is getting a .5mm thick shim washer for the DS. If the wheel currently fits into the dropouts easily, .5mm won’t be a problem.

Had to do that on a bike when I went to a Sachs Aris 7 speed freewheel; even with a 9 speed chain.

And yes, the miamijim thread was all about getting the freehub body closer to the DS dropout. With 126mm Cannondales, that thread was very pertinent for me.

John
To say that the miamijim thread only moves the body closer to the DS dropout is true but somewhat incomplete. What he did was rearrange spacers/washers and locknuts to take 2 mm from each side thereby keeping the hub in the same relative position so that the rim/tire remains centered in the stays and does not need any more dish. Miamijim noted that it could only be done with certain hubs. He noted the 8 speed dura ace and ultegra hubs. I did not mean to imply that this could be done with the WH-RS10 but I admit I was unclear on that point. I was meaning to provide information so that if the OP's current approach wouldn't work, miamijim's thread would give him an alternative approach. Of course, it would require purchasing an appropriate hub/wheel.
mitchmellow62 is offline  
Old 01-06-21, 04:04 PM
  #21  
70sSanO
Senior Member
 
70sSanO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Mission Viejo
Posts: 3,231

Bikes: 1986 Cannondale SR400 (Flat bar commuter), 1988 Cannondale Criterium XTR, 1992 Serotta T-Max, 1995 Trek 970

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 891 Post(s)
Liked 679 Times in 460 Posts
That is true. I have studied that thread since my Cannondale is stuck at 126mm. While there is some benefit with the spacers, the real width savings is in the locknuts. I have collected a few very thin locknuts for this purpose.

I had planned on using a FH-7700 and reduce the OLD close to 126mm. From comparing FH measurements, I believe the 7700 matched the measurements of the DA FH-7403; but it has been a number of years since I looked into this. Also the locknuts on the 7700 are very thick.

In the end, I swapped out the 9 speed 7700 titanium freehub body for one off an XT 732 and I’m running a 3x7 which is serving me well.

John
70sSanO is online now  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.