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Dish and spoke tension

Old 01-11-21, 02:37 PM
  #1  
rovis
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Dish and spoke tension

I've noticed my rear wheel is slightly off center against the dropouts. It's about 2mm towards the drive side.
True is fine, and I've flipped the wheel to check if there's same offset on the left dropout. And same offset is present, which tells me the dishing is too aggressive towards drive side.

Questions:
how much offset is okay without impacting wheel performance and wear?
should I attempt re dishing, this being my first attempt to 'fix' a wheel? Plenty of how-to's there how to do it, and it doesn't look very complicated.
any references for spoke tension? If I do the dishing, I'd like to also check the spoke tensions and adjust where needed.

Thanks,
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Old 01-11-21, 03:01 PM
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Personally, I'd make sure the brakes were adjusted and go ride it.
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Old 01-11-21, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by rovis View Post
I've noticed my rear wheel is slightly off center against the dropouts. It's about 2mm towards the drive side.
True is fine, and I've flipped the wheel to check if there's same offset on the left dropout. And same offset is present, which tells me the dishing is too aggressive towards drive side.

Questions:
how much offset is okay without impacting wheel performance and wear?
should I attempt re dishing, this being my first attempt to 'fix' a wheel? Plenty of how-to's there how to do it, and it doesn't look very complicated.
any references for spoke tension? If I do the dishing, I'd like to also check the spoke tensions and adjust where needed.

Thanks,
These are what I consider to be acceptable wheel trueness tolerances. In other words: wheels built to within those tolerances tend to last long, and not cause any handling problems.

The linked article contains links to other articles, books, and videos, explaining the topic. Both mine, and from other authors. With the most detailed ones being Jobst Brandt's (if you wish to know why), and Roger Musson's (if you wish to know how exactly) - plainly put.
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Old 01-11-21, 04:47 PM
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[QUOTE=Bike Gremlin;21873390] ... /QUOTE]
Thanks for the references, and subscribed to your YT channel.
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Old 01-11-21, 05:31 PM
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That's about the simplest wheel "repair".
You simply turn all the NDS spokes another 1/8 turn. Just pay attention.
Check.
Repeat if necessary. You only "shift" the rim 1mm total which, as noted, is pretty negligible.

The caveat- Are your nipples corroded to the spokes and how bad.
You might tighten a few and strip a few.
Unless they ALL turn relatively easy, I'd skip it.

Shifting the rim to the DS is a much bigger pain, due to hub/rim trigonometry. If the DS spokes are at max tension, you have to relax NDS spoke, reducing overall spoke tension..
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Old 01-11-21, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun View Post
That's about the simplest wheel "repair".
You simply turn all the NDS spokes another 1/8 turn. Just pay attention.
Check.
Repeat if necessary. You only "shift" the rim 1mm total which, as noted, is pretty negligible.

The caveat- Are your nipples corroded to the spokes and how bad.
You might tighten a few and strip a few.
Unless they ALL turn relatively easy, I'd skip it.


Shifting the rim to the DS is a much bigger pain, due to hub/rim trigonometry. If the DS spokes are at max tension, you have to relax NDS spoke, reducing overall spoke tension..
That brings up another point: which side to adjust. Lower tension on DS, or increase on NDS?
Meanwhile I've got some tension numbers from the wheel manufacturer. At least that would give me some idea where the current tension stands, before making any changes.

Is your statement "If the DS spokes are at max tension, you have to relax NDS spoke, reducing overall spoke tension.." correct? I would imagine in order to.center the rim to the hub, you need to "pull" the rim to NDS (increasing tension on NDS, or lowering on DS). Yes, overall tension should be within acceptable limits on both sides.

Last edited by rovis; 01-11-21 at 07:52 PM.
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Old 01-11-21, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by rovis View Post
That brings up another point: which side to adjust. Lower tension on SD, or increase on NDS?
Meanwhile I've got some tension numbers from the wheel manufacturer. At least that would give me some idea where the current tension stands, before making any changes.

Is your statement "If the DS spokes are at max tension, you have to relax NDS spoke, reducing overall spoke tension.." correct? I would imagine in order to.center the rim to the hub, you need to "pull" the rim to NDS (increasing tension on NDS, or lowering on DS). Yes, overall tension should be within acceptable limits on both sides.
Just read the first 2 lines.

What's an SD.
Attention Disorder?
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Old 01-11-21, 07:46 PM
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2mm isn't really that big a deal but can be dealt with. Adding an 1/8 to 1/4 turn to the non-drive side will have no major effect on the overall spoke tension of the drive side. A 1/4 turn if that much is needed will increase the drive side by 1-2kgf which shouldn't be enough to really matter. Just do all the NDS 1/8 turn and then go the other 1/8 if needed. Wheels list a max tension but I know I only worry about building close to that limit, not hitting it. If the wheel says max 120kgf spoke tension I build till it all feels good and stop somewhere close to the right tension, usually if I've hit 115kgf, then its good enough and there's room for a touch more.
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Old 01-11-21, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by pdlamb View Post
Personally, I'd make sure the brakes were adjusted and go ride it.
Aw, where’s the fun in that?
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Old 01-11-21, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by rovis View Post
. . .

Is your statement "If the DS spokes are at max tension, you have to relax NDS spoke, reducing overall spoke tension.." correct? I would imagine in order to.center the rim to the hub, you need to "pull" the rim to NDS (increasing tension on NDS, or lowering on DS). Yes, overall tension should be within acceptable limits on both sides.
Actually you will only reach target tension on the drive side. The left-side spokes will be at one-half to two-thirds that tension. You don’t aim for a target tension on the left. You just accept whatever you get when you centre the rim.
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Old 01-11-21, 10:44 PM
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A little perspective here. First, a question. What is your goal? To have a good riding bike? To use this exercise as the first step in learning to build wheels?

If your goal is a good ride, adjust the brakes and go. 2mm is way under the radar. Only shows as an issue between your ears. If your goal is to learn to build wheels, go for it. But be patient, read the books and go slowly and systematically. If your goal is to make your bike perfect with an easy tweak - STOP! (Unless replacing this wheel or paying to have someone else re-build it from scratch is OK.)

Before you do anything, look long and hard at those three choices. I've ridden many bikes and wheels with that 1), the slightly offset brake. I love building wheels and have built almost every wheel I've ridden these past 45 years. It's a great skill and can be fun and relaxing. Also very useful skill in a pinch.

A small, simple and excellent book on wheel building is Robert Wright's "Building Bicycle Wheels". Author was a bike mechanic in Santa Cruz, operating out of his garage shop. Preferred wheel builder of the Santa Cruz elite 40+ years ago. Never got acclaim out of the county (and never sought it). Just wrote and had published this simple little book that is excellent for your first wheel. It's still easy to find on-line. I googled it recently.

Ben
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Old 01-12-21, 12:54 AM
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Ditto, Bill's suggestion. I did that a couple of years ago for a donor wheelset from a friend to replace one damaged when a car hit me. The front wheel was fine but the rear was off a bit. It rode okay, no handling problems, but after a couple of months I wanted to get it straight. The rims are Alex S500 (622x14, I think), kinda heavy sorta-aero rims, no-name hubs, black spokes, good wheelset for my hybrid.

I removed the tire, tube and rim tape, added a droplet of lube to each nipple, let it set overnight, then tackled carefully tweaking the NDS until it was centered. I don't have a wheelbuilding rig so I set the wheel in a Cycleops trainer with some doodads tape to the holders to indicate progress as I went along. Fortunately it went very smoothly, no problems having to address hop after dishing.

For awhile there was a bit of spoke creaking. At first I wondered whether I inadvertently twisted some spokes instead of just the nipples. Nope, everything was fine. These were black spokes (enameled? painted? I dunno) and presumably the finish was wearing in a bit. I squished some soft wax between the spoke crossings, which quieted the creaking. After some riding everything settled in.

Hardest part was adjusting the cantilever brakes to match the redished rim. And that wasn't hard either.

More than two years and a lot of miles later, no problems. Everything has stayed remarkably true, I'm not sure I've needed to touch the spokes again.
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Old 01-12-21, 03:34 AM
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You've got some good advice on here. 2mm is nothing to worry about, first and foremost.

Just squeeze all the spokes, on both the DS and NDS, and look for any which seem noticeably less tensioned than the rest. Try tightening one. If the rim bends, its been bent before in that particular area and you'll have to make due with less than optimal tension in that one specific spot. Not a big deal.

Then lightly tension each NDS spoke, as suggested and ride the bike.
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Old 01-12-21, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
...added a droplet of lube to each nipple, let it set overnight...
I see OP is in SoCal and if along the coast I offer canklecat's procedure could be important. I have rounded an aluminum nipple on my daughter's Portland bike and even one down in Southern AZ that may not have been touched in years. I now give all spokes a tiny drop of Kroil.
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Old 01-12-21, 11:23 AM
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Thanks a lot for all your feedback!
I'll try to summarize what I've gathered so far.

First and foremost, I'm understanding that a 2mm deviation from center is not a big deal in terms of potential problems down the road. I'm not an advocate for 'perfect', so I can live with this small offset. Yes, is more of an issue "between my ears" at this point!
The reply from Russ Roth definitely clarified a major point in terms of minor adjustments to dish: the change in spoke tension. A 1-2 Kgf change with minor dish adjustment, would be <1% in terms of overall tension change,which I think is negligible. That also clarifies some information I've got from a video tutorial where the mechanic was adjusting a similar dish issue and mentioning to adjust only one side of the wheel in terms of tension.
Very useful the recommendations to use some lube against any possible corrosion at nipples before any adjustments. Would WD-40 work?

I'm going to acquire a tension meter first just to have an idea of where the wheel stands at this point. I've noticed a couple of "softer" spokes on NDS, so I might start there with a small adjustment.
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Old 01-12-21, 01:45 PM
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I’d probably move it over. It is reallly not a big deal. I’ve got the truing stand, dishing tool, and spoke tension meter.

I’ve recently swapped out freehub bodies with different speed bodies; real width not 8-10 that are the same.

If spoke tension is fine, I just turn spokes 1/8 or 1/4 turn alternating each side to loosen DS and tighten NDS. Not rocket science. Make sure you stress relieve and re-check.

And there is a never a bad time to check and true wheels, except maybe half way through a ride.

John
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Old 01-12-21, 03:52 PM
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Remember the old saying "there's an app for that!" ?
Some people use a Hz meter app/s to measure the frequency when plucking a spoke. Might work, but you still need some baseline tension data to compare to.
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Old 01-14-21, 06:30 AM
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In response to your question.... our bicycle tech course stipulated that up to 6mm dishing deviation is OK. obviously that is if your wheel doesn't rub on the frame or brakes are not compromised. 2mm is well within limits.
Others have already commented that you should simply adjust the NDS spokes by 1/8th turn on each spoke. Personally unless there is an issue I would not bother.

Originally Posted by rovis View Post
I've noticed my rear wheel is slightly off center against the dropouts. It's about 2mm towards the drive side.
True is fine, and I've flipped the wheel to check if there's same offset on the left dropout. And same offset is present, which tells me the dishing is too aggressive towards drive side.

Questions:
how much offset is okay without impacting wheel performance and wear?
should I attempt re dishing, this being my first attempt to 'fix' a wheel? Plenty of how-to's there how to do it, and it doesn't look very complicated.
any references for spoke tension? If I do the dishing, I'd like to also check the spoke tensions and adjust where needed.

Thanks,
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Old 01-17-21, 03:06 PM
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I've measured my rear wheel and here's how it looks. Overall rather under tensioned, with soft spokes around.
Recommended tension for this wheel is:
NDS: 70-95kgf
DS: 105-135kgf

How could I improve this wheel?
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Old 01-18-21, 03:41 PM
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Thread bump.
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Old 01-19-21, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by rovis View Post


I've measured my rear wheel and here's how it looks. Overall rather under tensioned, with soft spokes around.
Recommended tension for this wheel is:
NDS: 70-95kgf
DS: 105-135kgf

How could I improve this wheel?

You didn't say what wheel you have, but only list 8 spokes left, 16 right. Is this a 24 spoke wheel or is it a 32 spoke wheel you that you only read half the left side tensions for?

I would first focus on the loosest spokes and see if the rim around them is true, or if tightening them up would help true the wheel. Then when things are true, then just do what others have suggested of tightening all spokes on one side to adjust the dish. You can go back and forth with this until you have the tension and dish both where you want them.
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Old 01-19-21, 02:45 AM
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It's not something to worry about if you don't want to do it.

If it was my wheel though, I'd tighten a bit (1/4 or 1/8 of turn will probably do) the NDS spokes (which will have less tension that the DS spokes as the wheel is not symmetrical). I did exactly this to my rear Mavic Kysrium which had the same issue.
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Old 01-19-21, 10:34 AM
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@luns and @Amt0571

Thanks for your replies.
Wheel is 24 spokes.
My first impulse would be to tighten the loose spokes on NDS. Bring them to around 16 equivalent. That's a fairly big change to me (no experience with fixing or building wheels) , and my concern is that it could throw the true out. As stated at the beginning of the thread, true is fine for now.
Investing in a true stand to keep things in check, not really my goal at this point.
I wonder how much would cost to redo the wheel from scratch? At a point a new wheel, or set, would maybe make more sense.

Last edited by rovis; 01-19-21 at 11:09 AM.
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Old 01-19-21, 10:51 AM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by rovis View Post
@luns and @Amt0571

Thanks for your replies.
Wheel is 24 spokes.
My first impulse would be to tighten the loose spokes on NDS. Bring them to around 16Kgf. That's a fairly big change to me (no experience with fixing or building wheels) , and my concern is that it could throw the true out. As stated at the beginning of the thread, true is fine for now.
Investing in a true stand to keep things in check, not really my goal at this point.
I wonder how much would cost to redo the wheel from scratch? At a point a new wheel, or set, would maybe make more sense.
No need for a truing stand. Tighten all spokes by the same amount 1/8 of turn at a time. If you go too far, just loosen them again. Nothing to worry unless you lose the count of which spokes you have tightened and which don't.

Use the valve as a reference, don't rush it and everything will be OK.
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Old 01-19-21, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Amt0571 View Post
No need for a truing stand. Tighten all spokes by the same amount 1/8 of turn at a time. If you go too far, just loosen them again. Nothing to worry unless you lose the count of which spokes you have tightened and which don't.

Use the valve as a reference, don't rush it and everything will be OK.
You're saying that "tighten all spokes by same amount...". Do you mean that if I should tighten all spokes, by same amount on NDS? The overall tension will increase significantly. And most likely throw the true out.
Maybe you're referring only to the weak spokes when you say "all"?
Sure, even a visual check would probably indicate any major true issue, and i could always revert the changes.

I also wonder if this tension issue might have something to do with a certain clicking noise that started lately!? That happens when I pedal or not, so it must come from the hub or the wheel itself. I've checked any other possible culprits, and it happens when I seat in the saddle, so more weight on the rear wheel.
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