Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Bicycle Mechanics
Reload this Page >

Wheel Dish vs Spoke Tension

Notices
Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

Wheel Dish vs Spoke Tension

Old 01-20-21, 07:43 PM
  #26  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: South Shore of Long Island
Posts: 2,762

Bikes: 2010 Carrera Volans, 2015 C-Dale Trail 2sl, 2017 Raleigh Rush Hour, 2017 Blue Proseccio, 1992 Giant Perigee, 80s Gitane Rallye Tandem

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1073 Post(s)
Liked 999 Times in 710 Posts
Originally Posted by dabac
You take the high tension side to whatever the rim spec allows it to be. Then you set the low tension side to whatever required to get the dish right.
This 100%, set the higher tension towards the top end of the rim specs and let the other side be whatever it is, that's what the hub allows.

Originally Posted by Unca_Sam
A wheel with 90kgf tensioned spokes will still be solid, and the rim isn't likely to collapse if you go up to 170kgf. You have a wide margin, so center the rim and balance the tensions, and as long as the wheel is sound and true, call it a day.
I have seen rims completely taco due to too high of spoke tension, the NDS adds some structure but if the DS is higher then the rim can handle is takes very little side load to completely warp the rim. Not to mention exceeding the load capacity of the rim.
Russ Roth is offline  
Old 01-20-21, 08:04 PM
  #27  
The dropped
 
Unca_Sam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 2,406

Bikes: Pake C'Mute Touring/Commuter Build, 1989 Kona Cinder Cone, 1995 Trek 5200, 1973 Raleigh Super Course FG, 1960/61 Montgomery Ward Hawthorne "thrift" 3 speed, by Hercules (sold) : 1966 Schwinn Deluxe Racer (sold)

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1739 Post(s)
Liked 1,014 Times in 696 Posts
Originally Posted by Russ Roth
This 100%, set the higher tension towards the top end of the rim specs and let the other side be whatever it is, that's what the hub allows.


I have seen rims completely taco due to too high of spoke tension, the NDS adds some structure but if the DS is higher then the rim can handle is takes very little side load to completely warp the rim. Not to mention exceeding the load capacity of the rim.
I'm not advising him to go up to 170, I'm trying to get across the point that it's not rocket science. The tension meter shouldn't be used to determine tension on a single spoke, but to take a survey of tensions on all the spokes to find high and low values and adjust them to the average tension for the side.
Unca_Sam is offline  
Old 01-20-21, 08:20 PM
  #28  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: South Shore of Long Island
Posts: 2,762

Bikes: 2010 Carrera Volans, 2015 C-Dale Trail 2sl, 2017 Raleigh Rush Hour, 2017 Blue Proseccio, 1992 Giant Perigee, 80s Gitane Rallye Tandem

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1073 Post(s)
Liked 999 Times in 710 Posts
Originally Posted by Unca_Sam
I'm not advising him to go up to 170, I'm trying to get across the point that it's not rocket science. The tension meter shouldn't be used to determine tension on a single spoke, but to take a survey of tensions on all the spokes to find high and low values and adjust them to the average tension for the side.
The problem is it looked like you were offering a legitimate number and people who have no clue what they're doing, OP being a potential case in point, might take it at face value. I try to never underestimate the ability of people to make really stupid decisions based on perceived information.
Agree on everything else.
Russ Roth is offline  
Old 01-20-21, 10:01 PM
  #29  
The dropped
 
Unca_Sam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 2,406

Bikes: Pake C'Mute Touring/Commuter Build, 1989 Kona Cinder Cone, 1995 Trek 5200, 1973 Raleigh Super Course FG, 1960/61 Montgomery Ward Hawthorne "thrift" 3 speed, by Hercules (sold) : 1966 Schwinn Deluxe Racer (sold)

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1739 Post(s)
Liked 1,014 Times in 696 Posts
Originally Posted by Russ Roth
The problem is it looked like you were offering a legitimate number and people who have no clue what they're doing, OP being a potential case in point, might take it at face value. I try to never underestimate the ability of people to make really stupid decisions based on perceived information.
Agree on everything else.
That makes us buddies. We're buddies now.
Unca_Sam is offline  
Likes For Unca_Sam:
Old 01-21-21, 06:13 PM
  #30  
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 246
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 82 Post(s)
Liked 13 Times in 12 Posts
Originally Posted by dabac
You take the high tension side to whatever the rim spec allows it to be. Then you set the low tension side to whatever required to get the dish right.
I spent some more time on this last night. I backed off the loose side to move the rim in the direction it needs to go in order to get the dish just right. I ended up with this....DS=96kgf and NDS=135kgf. At this point I can leave it, increase tension all the way around or decrease tension all the way around. Dish is perfect, trueness is perfect and tension is equal all the way around of each side. I confirmed that velocity's spec is only applicable to drive side. The NDS ends up where ever it ends up. I thought the spec was for both sides. I am leaning towards calling it good as is.
mrmb is offline  
Old 01-21-21, 07:07 PM
  #31  
The dropped
 
Unca_Sam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 2,406

Bikes: Pake C'Mute Touring/Commuter Build, 1989 Kona Cinder Cone, 1995 Trek 5200, 1973 Raleigh Super Course FG, 1960/61 Montgomery Ward Hawthorne "thrift" 3 speed, by Hercules (sold) : 1966 Schwinn Deluxe Racer (sold)

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1739 Post(s)
Liked 1,014 Times in 696 Posts
The differing tensions are a result of the dish. Equal length spokes at equal tensions on both sides of the hub will center the rim between the hub flanges, and it's how I built my rim brake front wheels. Doing that on a rear wheel with unequal flange spacing from the center will still center the rim between the flanges, which is not the center of the hub.

For clarity's sake, don't continue to refer to the sides of the hub as "DS" and "NDS" simply because the freehub is on one side and the disc mount is on the other. Your DS will always be the driven side, and the NDS will always be the side that is there to support the rest of the rim. You'll confuse and irritate poor Bill, and he'll ignore your future cries for help. You should come back later and let us know how you like a fixed MTB wheel.
Unca_Sam is offline  
Old 01-21-21, 08:45 PM
  #32  
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 246
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 82 Post(s)
Liked 13 Times in 12 Posts
Originally Posted by Russ Roth
This 100%, set the higher tension towards the top end of the rim specs and let the other side be whatever it is, that's what the hub allows.
This is exactly what I did. And now I am wondering something.....is it better to be driving the side with more tension or the side with less tension or does it not make a difference?

As in, will a wheel that is driven by the side with greater tension going to last longer? Be stronger? Hold up to abuse better? Or is this a 100% non-issue?
mrmb is offline  
Old 01-21-21, 10:58 PM
  #33  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: South Shore of Long Island
Posts: 2,762

Bikes: 2010 Carrera Volans, 2015 C-Dale Trail 2sl, 2017 Raleigh Rush Hour, 2017 Blue Proseccio, 1992 Giant Perigee, 80s Gitane Rallye Tandem

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1073 Post(s)
Liked 999 Times in 710 Posts
Originally Posted by mrmb
I spent some more time on this last night. I backed off the loose side to move the rim in the direction it needs to go in order to get the dish just right. I ended up with this....DS=96kgf and NDS=135kgf. At this point I can leave it, increase tension all the way around or decrease tension all the way around. Dish is perfect, trueness is perfect and tension is equal all the way around of each side. I confirmed that velocity's spec is only applicable to drive side. The NDS ends up where ever it ends up. I thought the spec was for both sides. I am leaning towards calling it good as is.
Although the 135 is at the high end its still well within reason of where it should be and so if those are your tensions, its straight, true and round I wouldn't screw with it any further. Its good.

Originally Posted by mrmb
This is exactly what I did. And now I am wondering something.....is it better to be driving the side with more tension or the side with less tension or does it not make a difference?

As in, will a wheel that is driven by the side with greater tension going to last longer? Be stronger? Hold up to abuse better? Or is this a 100% non-issue?
Good question, when torque is applied to the hub it applies to both sides and with a quality hub it applies it fairly equally to both sides, the hub shouldn't really wind up one side more then another. I suspect it will make some difference but with the amount of tension you have at 95kgf on the lower tension side I doubt it will make enough of a difference to matter. Where spokes really fatigue is the constant loading and unloading cycles they experience as the wheel rolls along and that will still be the same either way. I would also like to see this setup with the disc side being used as the driveside and how its being used.
Russ Roth is offline  
Old 01-23-21, 03:57 PM
  #34  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 6,660
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 582 Post(s)
Liked 171 Times in 138 Posts
I would go for 110 to 130kG on the drive side and let the NDS fall where it may. I try for .5 mm radial run-out and the same or less on the lateral.
One mm is .0394 inches and a small amount that you wouldn't feel.
davidad is offline  
Old 01-25-21, 01:16 PM
  #35  
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 246
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 82 Post(s)
Liked 13 Times in 12 Posts
Originally Posted by Russ Roth
I would also like to see this setup with the disc side being used as the driveside and how its being used.
Here are some pics. Surly disc trucker, vertical dropouts, magic gear set up, shimano dura ace octalink BB and crank, perfect chainline and chain slack....not sure what else to add. Pics...




mrmb is offline  
Likes For mrmb:
Old 01-25-21, 01:18 PM
  #36  
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 246
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 82 Post(s)
Liked 13 Times in 12 Posts
More pics...




mrmb is offline  
Old 01-25-21, 01:56 PM
  #37  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 6,660
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 582 Post(s)
Liked 171 Times in 138 Posts
You needed a single speed hub for that setup. The tension for the NDS in your setup is now about 110kG and let the DS fall where it may.
davidad is offline  
Old 01-25-21, 03:11 PM
  #38  
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 246
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 82 Post(s)
Liked 13 Times in 12 Posts
Originally Posted by davidad
You needed a single speed hub for that setup. The tension for the NDS in your setup is now about 110kG and let the DS fall where it may.
If single speed is what I wanted I would use the hub I have and install a cog and spacers on the free-hub then use the free wheel side as my drive side.

But, fixed gear is what I want and choices are very limited. Not much to choose from for fixed gear and 135mm spacing.
mrmb is offline  
Old 01-25-21, 03:36 PM
  #39  
Really Old Senior Member
 
Bill Kapaun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Mid Willamette Valley, Orygun
Posts: 13,824

Bikes: 87 RockHopper,2008 Specialized Globe. Both upgraded to 9 speeds.

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1774 Post(s)
Liked 1,231 Times in 852 Posts
Originally Posted by mrmb
........Not much to choose from for fixed gear and 135mm spacing.
A longer axle and a spacer of appropriate length would be a lot simpler than your aberration.
Bill Kapaun is offline  
Old 01-25-21, 03:46 PM
  #40  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 8,688
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1074 Post(s)
Liked 295 Times in 222 Posts
Originally Posted by mrmb
...I am wondering something.....is it better to be driving the side with more tension or the side with less tension or does it not make a difference?
For a hub with the center section dimensions like yours, it doesn’t matter. There will be no discernible wind-up for the forces you can apply.
A quick look at low spoke count road bike wheels will show some with DS radial, some with NDS radial. And no particular horror stories about early failures associated with either.
dabac is offline  
Old 01-25-21, 03:53 PM
  #41  
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 246
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 82 Post(s)
Liked 13 Times in 12 Posts
Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun
A longer axle and a spacer of appropriate length would be a lot simpler than your aberration.
I had a White Industries eccentric hub on this bike, but I came to lack faith in the design when the adjustment moved on me. I really like this shimano hub and I really like the bolt on cog. And I like the heavy 1/4in loose balls design.

If you were in my position, what hub would you have used?
mrmb is offline  
Old 01-25-21, 04:00 PM
  #42  
Really Old Senior Member
 
Bill Kapaun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Mid Willamette Valley, Orygun
Posts: 13,824

Bikes: 87 RockHopper,2008 Specialized Globe. Both upgraded to 9 speeds.

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1774 Post(s)
Liked 1,231 Times in 852 Posts
Originally Posted by mrmb
......If you were in my position, what hub would you have used?
No idea since the reason I quit riding bikes when I was a kid is because they only had 1 gear and I lived in a somewhat hilly area.
I'm happy as a clam with my 3x9's, even living in a "flat" area.
Bill Kapaun is offline  
Old 01-25-21, 04:15 PM
  #43  
The dropped
 
Unca_Sam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 2,406

Bikes: Pake C'Mute Touring/Commuter Build, 1989 Kona Cinder Cone, 1995 Trek 5200, 1973 Raleigh Super Course FG, 1960/61 Montgomery Ward Hawthorne "thrift" 3 speed, by Hercules (sold) : 1966 Schwinn Deluxe Racer (sold)

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1739 Post(s)
Liked 1,014 Times in 696 Posts
Originally Posted by mrmb
I had a White Industries eccentric hub on this bike, but I came to lack faith in the design when the adjustment moved on me. I really like this shimano hub and I really like the bolt on cog. And I like the heavy 1/4in loose balls design.

If you were in my position, what hub would you have used?
Surly (go figure ) sell 135mm single speed and fixed hubs. They go for $80 a hub.
Unca_Sam is offline  
Old 01-25-21, 05:19 PM
  #44  
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 246
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 82 Post(s)
Liked 13 Times in 12 Posts
Originally Posted by Unca_Sam
Surly (go figure ) sell 135mm single speed and fixed hubs. They go for $80 a hub.
Surly hubs are pretty bad IMO. I do have a set.

The bolts that tighten them in place in the drop outs use a 5mm allen that strips very easily. Learned the hard way. The bearings are a bit undersized.
mrmb is offline  
Old 01-25-21, 07:23 PM
  #45  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: South Shore of Long Island
Posts: 2,762

Bikes: 2010 Carrera Volans, 2015 C-Dale Trail 2sl, 2017 Raleigh Rush Hour, 2017 Blue Proseccio, 1992 Giant Perigee, 80s Gitane Rallye Tandem

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1073 Post(s)
Liked 999 Times in 710 Posts
Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun
A longer axle and a spacer of appropriate length would be a lot simpler than your aberration.
I think you're over blowing it, Although the non-drive will be less then ideal the biggest issue is the wheel bearing up under the weight of the rider and which side is which will have no impact on that. The twist in the wheel from pedaling forces is transferred through the hub, this set up might put a touch more wear on the spokes but not enough to matter for quite some time.


Nice looking build, have fun with it.
Russ Roth is offline  
Old 01-25-21, 07:23 PM
  #46  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: South Shore of Long Island
Posts: 2,762

Bikes: 2010 Carrera Volans, 2015 C-Dale Trail 2sl, 2017 Raleigh Rush Hour, 2017 Blue Proseccio, 1992 Giant Perigee, 80s Gitane Rallye Tandem

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1073 Post(s)
Liked 999 Times in 710 Posts
Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun
A longer axle and a spacer of appropriate length would be a lot simpler than your aberration.
I think you're over blowing it, Although the non-drive will be less then ideal the biggest issue is the wheel bearing up under the weight of the rider and which side is which will have no impact on that. The twist in the wheel from pedaling forces is transferred through the hub, this set up might put a touch more wear on the spokes but not enough to matter for quite some time.


Nice looking build, have fun with it.
Russ Roth is offline  
Old 01-26-21, 02:03 AM
  #47  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 8,688
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1074 Post(s)
Liked 295 Times in 222 Posts
Originally Posted by mrmb
If single speed is what I wanted I would use the hub I have and install a cog and spacers on the free-hub then use the free wheel side as my drive side.

But, fixed gear is what I want and choices are very limited. Not much to choose from for fixed gear and 135mm spacing.
Maybe one of these had helped: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bike-Bicycl...Cclp%3A2334524
dabac is offline  
Old 01-26-21, 04:37 PM
  #48  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 6,660
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 582 Post(s)
Liked 171 Times in 138 Posts
This one can be ordered with 130mm spacing and it shouldn't be hard to add 2mm washer to each side for a 134mm fit.
davidad is offline  
Old 01-27-21, 10:12 AM
  #49  
Senior Member
 
Mr. 66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 3,440
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1124 Post(s)
Liked 1,704 Times in 941 Posts
Oh my, that setup looks like a problem waiting to happen.

Shouldn't you at least have horizontal ends for single speed chain tension adjustment?
Mr. 66 is offline  
Old 01-27-21, 12:55 PM
  #50  
The dropped
 
Unca_Sam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 2,406

Bikes: Pake C'Mute Touring/Commuter Build, 1989 Kona Cinder Cone, 1995 Trek 5200, 1973 Raleigh Super Course FG, 1960/61 Montgomery Ward Hawthorne "thrift" 3 speed, by Hercules (sold) : 1966 Schwinn Deluxe Racer (sold)

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1739 Post(s)
Liked 1,014 Times in 696 Posts
Originally Posted by Mr. 66
Oh my, that setup looks like a problem waiting to happen.

Shouldn't you at least have horizontal ends for single speed chain tension adjustment?
The OP is using a "magic gear" setup. That means the chainring wrap + cog wrap + (distance between the chainring and cog)2 = a whole number of inches. The biggest issue with the setup is that chain wear will become intolerable sooner than on a tensioned or variable distance drivetrain. See this handy calculator for determining ring and cog combinations that work with your chainstay length.

Previous ''Fixed gear with Vertical Dropouts" threads acknowledge that it's a hack to work around the fixed axle position.
Unca_Sam is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.