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Wheel Dish vs Spoke Tension

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Wheel Dish vs Spoke Tension

Old 01-20-21, 01:17 PM
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mrmb
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Wheel Dish vs Spoke Tension

Building a wheel. Not my first, but I am no pro wheel builder either. Using the Park TS-2.2 stand and the park tension meter.

Rim = Velocity Deep V
Hub = Shimano Deore XT M756A

Odd combo, I know, but that's beside the point

Onto the question.......Velocity says that tension should be 110kgf-130kgf. As it is, the drive side is at 110kgf all the way around and the non-drive side is at 150kgf all the way around. The wheel is near-perfectly true. Less than 1mm hop, but it wont come out so I will call that good. The problem is dish....it is about 1.5mm out on the dish. The rim needs to go TOWARDS the side that is already at 150kgm. So, I can tighten that side and get about 200+kgf on that side (way too much I think) and get dish just right OR i can loosen the side that is already at 110kgf and end up with way too low of tension on that side, but have good dish. Or leave it as is.

What do you think?
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Old 01-20-21, 01:41 PM
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My 1st thought is that you’ve mixed up DS and NDS. It’d be a mighty weird wheel to have higher NDS tension than DS tension.
My 2nd thought is that unless you have a habit of breaking spokes, bring the DS tension down to the recommended value, then let the NDS tension be whatever it needs to be to set the correct dish.
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Old 01-20-21, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by mrmb View Post
Building a wheel. Not my first, but I am no pro wheel builder either. Using the Park TS-2.2 stand and the park tension meter.

Rim = Velocity Deep V
Hub = Shimano Deore XT M756A

Odd combo, I know, but that's beside the point

Onto the question.......Velocity says that tension should be 110kgf-130kgf. As it is, the drive side is at 110kgf all the way around and the non-drive side is at 150kgf all the way around. The wheel is near-perfectly true. Less than 1mm hop, but it wont come out so I will call that good. The problem is dish....it is about 1.5mm out on the dish. The rim needs to go TOWARDS the side that is already at 150kgm. So, I can tighten that side and get about 200+kgf on that side (way too much I think) and get dish just right OR i can loosen the side that is already at 110kgf and end up with way too low of tension on that side, but have good dish. Or leave it as is.

What do you think?
This is an easy fix. Loosen the DS, and take up the slack on the NDS. You're probably overdoing tensions, but the deep V is a strong rim.
Approach the wheel as a whole. So long as the spokes are tight, and the tensions are in close tolerance, then it'll last. Get the tension readings on the spokes per side to be as close as possible to each other while keeping the rim centered and true.

Last edited by Unca_Sam; 01-20-21 at 01:47 PM.
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Old 01-20-21, 01:46 PM
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NDS SHOULD be 53% of DS per Spocalc.

Are you using the same gauge spokes on both sides, or thinner on the NDS?

I don't think this rim comes with an offset spoke bed does it? Even with a 2.5mm offset, you'd be at about 65%.
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Old 01-20-21, 01:48 PM
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For the helpers coming, this hub is a disc brake model.
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Old 01-20-21, 02:36 PM
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Guessing a disc front hub for ds being the lower tension. The recommended range has as much to do with rim strength as it does wheel strength, if velocity is giving a top rating of 130kgf then you should assume there's a safety reason for doing so. At the least loosen the DS spokes to move the wheel over and relieve some tension. Dropping all the spokes a 1/4 turn will help with relieve more and give you the breathing room to ditch that tiny hop.
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Old 01-20-21, 02:39 PM
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I'd assumed a REAR hub, but if it's a front, it would be nice to know since it totally changes the number around.
LEFT side would be 150% of the RIGHT side.
IOW, if a front, you should be setting the LEFT side spokes at your 110 kgf and the R side end up where they end up.

Last edited by Bill Kapaun; 01-20-21 at 02:45 PM.
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Old 01-20-21, 03:09 PM
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This is the hub...

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Old 01-20-21, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by mrmb View Post
This is the hub...

And a simple complete part # such as FH-756 or HB-756 would have made it clear.
IF your NDS tension is higher than DS, there is a severe operator error.

Last edited by Bill Kapaun; 01-20-21 at 03:18 PM.
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Old 01-20-21, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by dabac View Post
My 1st thought is that you’ve mixed up DS and NDS. It’d be a mighty weird wheel to have higher NDS tension than DS tension.
My 2nd thought is that unless you have a habit of breaking spokes, bring the DS tension down to the recommended value, then let the NDS tension be whatever it needs to be to set the correct dish.
There has been no mistake with DS and NDS.

The DS is at the LOWEST number recommended already. If I bring it down to get the dish right, it will be way below the recommended value. This is my issue.
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Old 01-20-21, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Unca_Sam View Post
This is an easy fix. Loosen the DS, and take up the slack on the NDS. You're probably overdoing tensions, but the deep V is a strong rim.
Approach the wheel as a whole. So long as the spokes are tight, and the tensions are in close tolerance, then it'll last. Get the tension readings on the spokes per side to be as close as possible to each other while keeping the rim centered and true.
I hope it is as easy of a fix as you say. But to be clear....

Loosen up the DS as much as needed to bring the dish to center. Got it. As the rim shifts towards the NDS, the tension of the NDS goes down. This leaves me with lower tension on both sides. Then you say to take up slack at the NDS. Will I not end up with very low tension at the DS?
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Old 01-20-21, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by mrmb View Post
There has been no mistake with DS and NDS.

The DS is at the LOWEST number recommended already. If I bring it down to get the dish right, it will be way below the recommended value. This is my issue.
MATH doesn't lie!
You do realize the DS has the cogs and the NDS has the brake disc?
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Old 01-20-21, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun View Post
NDS SHOULD be 53% of DS per Spocalc.

Are you using the same gauge spokes on both sides, or thinner on the NDS?

I don't think this rim comes with an offset spoke bed does it? Even with a 2.5mm offset, you'd be at about 65%.
Spoke bed is not offset.

Same spokes on both sides.
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Old 01-20-21, 03:26 PM
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OP, how are you measuring dish?? Perhaps your TS-2.2 is out of calibration?
Try flipping the wheel around in the stand to see if your dish is in fact ******
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Old 01-20-21, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun View Post
MATH doesn't lie!
You do realize the DS has the cogs and the NDS has the brake disc?
Traditionally, DS has cogs, NDS has disc brake. I fully understand this.

In my case however, I am using it backwards. My cog is mounted to the disc brake flange, so the disc brake side is my DS.
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Old 01-20-21, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by mrmb View Post
Traditionally, DS has cogs, NDS has disc brake. I fully understand this.

In my case however, I am using it backwards. My cog is mounted to the disc brake flange, so the disc brake side is my DS.
Well, that explains it doesn't it. A little thing like I'm using the wheel BACKWARDS so the tensions are reversed.....
Set the "High Tension Side" to your 110ish KGF and let the other side fall where it may.

Flipping the wheel doesn't change the geometry between hub spoke flange & rim.
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Old 01-20-21, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by mrmb View Post
Traditionally, DS has cogs, NDS has disc brake. I fully understand this.

In my case however, I am using it backwards. My cog is mounted to the disc brake flange, so the disc brake side is my DS.

Ffs, You do realise that this information is VITAL in order to help you.

The dish has to be opposite then since the lower bracing angle side wil have to have higher tension to stay in dish, so your spoke tensions should be oppisite normal
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Old 01-20-21, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by FTB View Post
OP, how are you measuring dish?? Perhaps your TS-2.2 is out of calibration?
Try flipping the wheel around in the stand to see if your dish is in fact ******
I centered the TS-2.2 with this to ensure calibration

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Old 01-20-21, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by mrmb View Post
I centered the TS-2.2 with this to ensure calibration

Yep all good, I think ALL of the confusion came from us thinking the DS was the freehub side
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Old 01-20-21, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun View Post
Set the "High Tension Side" to your 110ish KGF and let the other side fall where it may.

Flipping the wheel doesn't change the geometry between hub spoke flange & rim.
Double checking....set the DISC side (DS in my case) to 110kgf and the the cassette side (NDS in my case) fall where it may?
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Old 01-20-21, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by mrmb View Post
Double checking....set the DISC side (DS in my case) to 110kgf and the the cassette side (NDS in my case) fall where it may?
Ignore list.
You won't even pay attention, let alone provide proper details.
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Old 01-20-21, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by FTB View Post
Yep all good, I think ALL of the confusion came from us thinking the DS was the freehub side
OK, so exactly how to approach the dish issue?

Loosen up the disc side (my DS), bring dish to center. My DS will now be very low.....then do what exactly to get tensions where they need to be? (110kgf - 130kgf) This is my point of confusion.
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Old 01-20-21, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by mrmb View Post
OK, so exactly how to approach the dish issue?

Loosen up the disc side (my DS), bring dish to center. My DS will now be very low.....then do what exactly to get tensions where they need to be? (110kgf - 130kgf) This is my point of confusion.
You take the high tension side to whatever the rim spec allows it to be. Then you set the low tension side to whatever required to get the dish right.
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Old 01-20-21, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by mrmb View Post
OK, so exactly how to approach the dish issue?

Loosen up the disc side (my DS), bring dish to center. My DS will now be very low.....then do what exactly to get tensions where they need to be? (110kgf - 130kgf) This is my point of confusion.
I suggest you stop focusing on the absolute tension in your spokes, and focus instead on dish, and balancing tension among the spokes per hub side.

A wheel with 90kgf tensioned spokes will still be solid, and the rim isn't likely to collapse if you go up to 170kgf. You have a wide margin, so center the rim and balance the tensions, and as long as the wheel is sound and true, call it a day.
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Old 01-20-21, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by mrmb View Post
Building a wheel. Not my first, but I am no pro wheel builder either. Using the Park TS-2.2 stand and the park tension meter.

Rim = Velocity Deep V
Hub = Shimano Deore XT M756A

Odd combo, I know, but that's NOT beside the point, it is quite the point

Onto the question.......Velocity says that tension should be 110kgf-130kgf. As it is, the drive side is at 110kgf all the way around and the non-drive side is at 150kgf all the way around. The wheel is near-perfectly true. Less than 1mm hop, but it wont come out so I will call that good. The problem is dish....it is about 1.5mm out on the dish. The rim needs to go TOWARDS the side that is already at 150kgm. So, I can tighten that side and get about 200+kgf on that side (way too much I think) and get dish just right OR i can loosen the side that is already at 110kgf and end up with way too low of tension on that side, but have good dish. Or leave it as is.

What do you think?
fixed that for you

Yes so you could loosen the Disc side (drive side/low tension in your case) to bring the rim towards the freehub body/cassette side (NDS/high tension in your case). YOUR low tension side will be lower than 110kgF
Hope this helps. Sorry if I came across as a bit pissed in this thread didn't mean it to be like that ahahah

Irony being that the whole "odd combo" if explained would have helped you faster...

Best of luck
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