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New Track Bike, help with stuck nuts and rust & wheels

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New Track Bike, help with stuck nuts and rust & wheels

Old 03-07-21, 01:36 PM
  #26  
dabac
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Originally Posted by LeSexyFishorse View Post
If I drilled off the allen bolt real carefully, could I reuse the stem with a new bolt?
Yes.
I thought that was clear enough by the way I wrote ” Finding a stem to act a donor for a new Allen bolt is usually quite easy.”

Allen heads are nice in the way they allow for easy centering of the drill. Some finesse is required, but it’s not like you need to be a verified power tool genius or anything.
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Old 03-07-21, 06:59 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by LeSexyFishorse View Post
I shall try the allen socket and breaker bar combo. What is a drift?

Is the frame really that bad? What are you looking at that scares you? Is it the rust or the "custom" brakejob that the owner assured me it was professionally done. Not sure I understand what you mean by installing new cable routing bosses with a tube in between. Are you referring to the internal cable routing holes? Or the holes drilled for the brakes? Are you trying to say that the brake mounting holes or the internal cable routing holes can be stress points which will cause the frame to eventually fail?

I will try to look for a pro framebuilder but thats quite unlikely in my area. There is only really one pro framebuiler shop with a good rep but they have a long wait line and dont really do small jobs anymore. Most other options are "self taught" frame builders which I am equally scared to go to. Would there be alternatives?
A drift is similar to a punch but instead of being used to make an indent for a drill bit or counter sinking finish nails its a bit harder and thicker to whack things with, in this case the end of the bolt that's let if the head comes off.
Not certain what is meant by professionally drilled, it looks like holes in a frame to me. Being a shop tech if I dimpled and then drilled the frame you could claim it is professionally done but it wouldn't mean much. Today, and since at least my 88 DeRose there is a tube that can be run through the frame that your cable housing will run through, it starts and ends at a braze-on that helps hold the tube in place while reinforcing the holes in the frame since the tubing can be thin away from the butting. It also serves to seal the top tube so that water can't pour in the randomly drilled hole. That's just my view. Its a nice frame and should be more then worth riding but I'd want it done right.
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Old 03-08-21, 01:13 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by LeSexyFishorse View Post




My only problem now is the stem is still stuck. I have tried the methods suggested except for using a drill since I couldnt find a shop with one. Right now I have added more penetrating oil and will try again tom to see if I can make progress. What solutions can I do if I cannot get the stem to free up? Its actually the right height so its ridable but I would it be good to get it painted with the stem and fork still on?

That is a lot of corrosion in there, and I would be surprised (but pleasantly) if that bolt comes out without drilling. A few solid but careful whacks with a medium hammer of the head of the nut might be good to try and break down the corrosion bonding the bolt to the clamp, then apply the hex tool. I usually would use the hammer with the bike leaning against me to absorb the shocks unless I could find something solid to lean the other side of the clamp against.
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Old 03-08-21, 06:47 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by James1964 View Post
What kind of wire wheel did you use? I thought a wire wheel might damage an aluminum rim.
Just a standard wire wheel.
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Old 03-08-21, 08:03 AM
  #30  
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Thanks for this!

Originally Posted by Russ Roth View Post
A drift is similar to a punch but instead of being used to make an indent for a drill bit or counter sinking finish nails its a bit harder and thicker to whack things with, in this case the end of the bolt that's let if the head comes off.
Not certain what is meant by professionally drilled, it looks like holes in a frame to me. Being a shop tech if I dimpled and then drilled the frame you could claim it is professionally done but it wouldn't mean much. Today, and since at least my 88 DeRose there is a tube that can be run through the frame that your cable housing will run through, it starts and ends at a braze-on that helps hold the tube in place while reinforcing the holes in the frame since the tubing can be thin away from the butting. It also serves to seal the top tube so that water can't pour in the randomly drilled hole. That's just my view. Its a nice frame and should be more then worth riding but I'd want it done right.
Ahh I see what you mean now. Would you have a photo of what the braze on looks like? I will drop by some machine shops and see if they can do something for that.
Definitely agree with you on the "professional" drilling. I meant that statement as satire since I wouldve have preferred those block type brake mounts to keep the frame as intact and original as possible. Im just a bit heartbroken coz I only got to ride her once since getting her and now im even more scared to do further damage.

Originally Posted by Geepig View Post
That is a lot of corrosion in there, and I would be surprised (but pleasantly) if that bolt comes out without drilling. A few solid but careful whacks with a medium hammer of the head of the nut might be good to try and break down the corrosion bonding the bolt to the clamp, then apply the hex tool. I usually would use the hammer with the bike leaning against me to absorb the shocks unless I could find something solid to lean the other side of the clamp against.
Good point, I have an old thick mattress in the backyard. I might just do the hammer work on that one to be safe. Should I be gentle when torqueing the bolt? I mean obviously not trying to be Conan the Barbarian but given the level of corrosion at some point I think it would be safe to stop worrying about rounding breaking the thing?
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Old 03-08-21, 08:52 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by LeSexyFishorse View Post
Ahh I see what you mean now. Would you have a photo of what the braze on looks like? I will drop by some machine shops and see if they can do something for that.
https://framebuildersupply.com/colle...ver-2-10-packs
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Old 03-08-21, 09:26 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson View Post
Just a standard wire wheel.
You're better than this!

Say "I'm using a fine brass wire wheel" so some dope doesn't use a carbon steel wire wheel on the rims!
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Old 03-08-21, 09:39 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by LeSexyFishorse View Post

I'm very confused by what looks like pitting on what should be an aluminum stem (right there under the bar clamp bolt). There also should not be any rust at the handlebar/stem clamp interface. Are the bars steel? A magnet is your friend here.

I would try a torch to the bolt (enough to make it too hot to touch) before I used a wrench with a hammer. If that clamp was assembled without grease, you could also be facing the dreaded aluminum weld that locks stems and seatposts inside bike frames.
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Old 03-08-21, 10:17 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Unca_Sam View Post
I'm very confused by what looks like pitting on what should be an aluminum stem (right there under the bar clamp bolt). There also should not be any rust at the handlebar/stem clamp interface. Are the bars steel? A magnet is your friend here.

I would try a torch to the bolt (enough to make it too hot to touch) before I used a wrench with a hammer. If that clamp was assembled without grease, you could also be facing the dreaded aluminum weld that locks stems and seatposts inside bike frames.
I agree - I'm not sure that that isn't a chromed steel stem. A feel-around with a magnet would be informative
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Old 03-08-21, 11:30 AM
  #35  
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All that rust scares me. There would be a lot of sanding, grinding and chemical treatments to that bike before I even thought about keeping it. That rust looks nasty.
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Old 03-08-21, 12:12 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Unca_Sam View Post
You're better than this!

Say "I'm using a fine brass wire wheel" so some dope doesn't use a carbon steel wire wheel on the rims!
No, that wheel is brass-plated steel wire.
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Old 03-08-21, 12:27 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by LeSexyFishorse View Post
I dont own an impact driver no, but I will happily visit a car shop to borrow theirs. Do I try to use the impact driver to unscrew the recessed nut or just destroy it completely. Can the stem still be saved if I destroy the nut? Its an NJS stem as well so I would like to keep it if possible. Would it be worth it to try with a drill to unscrew the nut first?

So I will try penetrating oil first, if that fails I will go the drill/impact driver route.
Try this type of impact driver. You hit it with a hammer. It is very effective, and more controllable than the air driven, or electric type impact driver. I use mine on bikes and motorcycles. I bought one like this recently at Lowes, but I cannot find it on their website right now. You would have to get the appropriate hex socket for a 3/8 inch driver.


https://www.amazon.com/CRAFTSMAN-Imp...5227896&sr=8-5
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Old 03-08-21, 12:37 PM
  #38  
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I've fixed up way worse rust then this.

On the rusted bolts you should use a penetrating oil first, and let it soak over night. But an alternative which I find actually works better for me is a product called "Rust Check" I don't know if it's available in America or what the equivalent is there but I've found it to loosens up rusted bolts way faster.

With the frame I use a tub mixed with water and citric acid and leave it a few hours or over night depending on how strong the solution is. You can also use oxalic acid which is a bit stronger but you need to do it outside. After you neutralize the acid with some baking soda and spay a bit of frame saver in the tubes. Then you might need a little scrubbing with some steel wool or a brass brush but it will look much better.

You will have to remove all the cups, but the beauty of powder coating seems to be not as much of prep work is needed. The one I go to he quickly sand blasts everything and frame forks and bars are powder coated for $150-250 cdn. If I was to get the same job done with auto paint I'd probably be looking $500-$900 to get it done by a Professional.
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Old 03-08-21, 01:53 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Unca_Sam View Post
I'm very confused by what looks like pitting on what should be an aluminum stem (right there under the bar clamp bolt). There also should not be any rust at the handlebar/stem clamp interface. Are the bars steel? A magnet is your friend here.

I would try a torch to the bolt (enough to make it too hot to touch) before I used a wrench with a hammer. If that clamp was assembled without grease, you could also be facing the dreaded aluminum weld that locks stems and seatposts inside bike frames.
I will check this tom, have to find my old magnet from the toolshed.

Originally Posted by cbrstar View Post
I've fixed up way worse rust then this.

On the rusted bolts you should use a penetrating oil first, and let it soak over night. But an alternative which I find actually works better for me is a product called "Rust Check" I don't know if it's available in America or what the equivalent is there but I've found it to loosens up rusted bolts way faster.

With the frame I use a tub mixed with water and citric acid and leave it a few hours or over night depending on how strong the solution is. You can also use oxalic acid which is a bit stronger but you need to do it outside. After you neutralize the acid with some baking soda and spay a bit of frame saver in the tubes. Then you might need a little scrubbing with some steel wool or a brass brush but it will look much better.

You will have to remove all the cups, but the beauty of powder coating seems to be not as much of prep work is needed. The one I go to he quickly sand blasts everything and frame forks and bars are powder coated for $150-250 cdn. If I was to get the same job done with auto paint I'd probably be looking $500-$900 to get it done by a Professional.
I was actually thinking how do I make sure the inside of the frame is rust free? I might be repainting it only to have a rust problem that spreads again from the inside. The LBS that referred me to the powdercoat company said they treat the metal before painting. Is that sufficient? Should I try submerging the frame in some sort of solution like you mentioned?

Also, is sandblasting ok for this kind of frame given the thin tubes?
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Old 03-08-21, 02:05 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by LeSexyFishorse View Post
I will check this tom, have to find my old magnet from the toolshed.


I was actually thinking how do I make sure the inside of the frame is rust free? I might be repainting it only to have a rust problem that spreads again from the inside. The LBS that referred me to the powdercoat company said they treat the metal before painting. Is that sufficient? Should I try submerging the frame in some sort of solution like you mentioned?

Also, is sandblasting ok for this kind of frame given the thin tubes?
The treatment before painting is usually an acid etch. Iron in bare steel oxidized immediately upon exposure to oxygen. The surface rust is microscopic, but still interferes with paint adhesion.
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Old 03-08-21, 03:33 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by LeSexyFishorse View Post
I will check this tom, have to find my old magnet from the toolshed.


I was actually thinking how do I make sure the inside of the frame is rust free? I might be repainting it only to have a rust problem that spreads again from the inside. The LBS that referred me to the powdercoat company said they treat the metal before painting. Is that sufficient? Should I try submerging the frame in some sort of solution like you mentioned?

Also, is sandblasting ok for this kind of frame given the thin tubes?
If the powder coaters are going to sand blast it then you really don't need the acid bath. And the sandblasting only removes extremely small amounts of the surface so don't worry about it. The reason I do the acid bath first is to see if the rust is hiding any cracks or pinholes. That way I know if I need to visit a metal fab guy I know first and get that damaged repaired properly. Some powder coaters will simply fill the crack / holes with a little bit of bondo and not say anything about it.
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Old 03-08-21, 04:27 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by cbrstar View Post
If the powder coaters are going to sand blast it then you really don't need the acid bath. And the sandblasting only removes extremely small amounts of the surface so don't worry about it. The reason I do the acid bath first is to see if the rust is hiding any cracks or pinholes. That way I know if I need to visit a metal fab guy I know first and get that damaged repaired properly. Some powder coaters will simply fill the crack / holes with a little bit of bondo and not say anything about it.
Does the sandblasting cover the inside of the frame too? Or will any rust inside the frame be taken care of by the chemical bath. Also the will the pantographs on the frame degrade from the sandblasting?
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Old 03-08-21, 04:40 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by LeSexyFishorse View Post
Does the sandblasting cover the inside of the frame too? Or will any rust inside the frame be taken care of by the chemical bath. Also the will the pantographs on the frame degrade from the sandblasting?
The sand blasting might be able to do some of inside like the bottom bracket. The acid bath can remove rust on the inside but you need to spray it with a rust inhibitor like "frame saver" after. On the inside once the rust is gone can "Flash rust" after depending on the climate you live in. A quick google search and I found this guys how to with frame saver. How to Use Frame Saver – Velo Orange (velo-orange.com)
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Old 03-08-21, 07:38 PM
  #44  
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With rust you take your chances. This was a couple years commuting after a blast and powdercoat. There was rust around the cable guide and I suspect the bike saw extensive trainer duty before I got it. Reynolds 531 tube.


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Old 03-08-21, 07:54 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by dedhed View Post
With rust you take your chances. This was a couple years commuting after a blast and powdercoat. There was rust around the cable guide and I suspect the bike saw extensive trainer duty before I got it. Reynolds 531 tube.


And they all tipped a splash of beer from their mugs in memory of the loss.
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Old 03-08-21, 08:48 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by James1964 View Post
Anyone else surprised by an internally routed brake cable on an NJS track bike? And a hollow axle on a Suntour Superbe track hub?
The previous owner clearly didn't care for what they had. I am all for running brakes but poorly drilling a frame for them is a definite NO!

That bike looks like it was sadly abused and that ain't good. I would strip it and send it to a frame builder and see if they can take a look and bring it back. There are some parts on that I would just toss or have to spend a lot of time cleaning and polishing and removing rust.
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Old 03-08-21, 09:01 PM
  #47  
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Find a powder place that does chem stripping, not mediablasting.
the acid tanks will clear rust from inside
Ask to go and have a look at it after it's been stripped, and decide if it's dead or not. Or, you could strip and aggressively remove the rust yourself, just to check. Getting the rust spots back to bare metal won't be that hard. Removing good paint is harder. Then you can decide if it's worth continuing.
I also suggest you shop it around a lot. Some places will do like $100 for strip and powder. Some, many times more. And some will hate bikes and some be fond of them.
It's really a shame because that original paint is great. But this way you can go metallic purple


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Old 03-09-21, 02:06 PM
  #48  
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That site should have the tube as well, but you want someone who brazes, not welds. Getting them brazed on will help to reinforce the area or at least reduce the stress of the holes while not causing heat issues with the tube.

Result looks like this, looks really slick and this bike is designed to run through the rain, mud and snow and none of that is staying in the frameset to rust it out.

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Old 03-12-21, 09:15 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Russ Roth View Post
That site should have the tube as well, but you want someone who brazes, not welds. Getting them brazed on will help to reinforce the area or at least reduce the stress of the holes while not causing heat issues with the tube.
Going to visit a few machine shops to see if they can do this kind of work for me.

Originally Posted by Soody View Post
Find a powder place that does chem stripping, not mediablasting.
the acid tanks will clear rust from inside
Ask to go and have a look at it after it's been stripped, and decide if it's dead or not. Or, you could strip and aggressively remove the rust yourself, just to check. Getting the rust spots back to bare metal won't be that hard. Removing good paint is harder. Then you can decide if it's worth continuing.
I also suggest you shop it around a lot. Some places will do like $100 for strip and powder. Some, many times more. And some will hate bikes and some be fond of them.
It's really a shame because that original paint is great. But this way you can go metallic purple
Yea gonna visit the powder coating company that my LBS recommended tom. I was thinking some sort of shade of nebula style purple or blue with the logos in white. Unfortunately the guys that are gonna replicate my decals cant do the sort of swarovski style effect on the Bridgestone logo I am going for.
Originally Posted by cbrstar View Post
The sand blasting might be able to do some of inside like the bottom bracket. The acid bath can remove rust on the inside but you need to spray it with a rust inhibitor like "frame saver" after. On the inside once the rust is gone can "Flash rust" after depending on the climate you live in. A quick google search and I found this guys how to with frame saver. How to Use Frame Saver – Velo Orange (velo-orange.com)
Will frame saver be necessary after an acid bath and powder coat?
Originally Posted by JohnDThompson View Post
No, that wheel is brass-plated steel wire.
So I took a wire brush mounted on a drill to that old glue and this is the result. I noticed after going through the rim that there were some damaged areas. I dont know if that was cause by me using a steel brush or not. I tried to be as careful as possible and I think it might have been previously existing damage. What do you guys think? Rest of the rim seems fine. Do I need to do another pass to completely remove all of the glue (batteries are currently charging)? The remaining residue is quite difficult to remove even with the brush and the drill.



Does this look like rim damage from the brush?


This is what I used

Tape or Glue?
As for gluing the tire on, I will be using this guide
. Although there is no mention of pre stretching the tubulars, should I be doing this? Any additional considerations to follow? I hope I dont screw this up else I will have to get myself a set of clinchers. LBS has been suggesting me to go with a brand new pair of Miche hubs with Legend rims for 170 USD. I told myself if I screwed up with the brand new tubs then I would just get a clincher set.
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Old 03-14-21, 07:18 AM
  #50  
bitpuddle
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This has been a fun thread to read through. A restoration like this can be really satisfying. Some thoughts, most of which have been mentioned:
  • That frame is in rough shape. Im not sure if it is from sweat or sitting in the elements, but I’d want to deal with the rust first, particularly around the headset and the home made cable port. The good thing about rust is that it is usually only on the surface, not a structural concern. Either way, strip all the parts off the frame.
  • If you don’t care about aesthetics, you could up just use a rust stabilizer around the rough parts. This is cheap and easy at home. I’d be particularly interested to see the inside of the bottom bracket shell, as moisture (and corrosion) tends to collect there.
  • If you do care about aesthetics, bring the stripped frame to a powder coater. They’ll bead blast the corrosion off. before powder coating.
  • After you deal with the corrosion, invest in a can of frame saver. Also cheap and easy (though smelly) to do at home.
  • given the corrosion and possible refinishing, when you’re ready to build the frame again, I’d visit either a good shop or a frame builder to face the headset and bottom bracket, chase the bottom bracket threads, and possibly ream the seat tube. This requires specialized tools, but shouldn’t be expensive. Getting the surfaces faced might be particularly important, as bad surfaces will cause the headset / bb to loosen over time.
  • once the frame is in good shape, you can build it with whatever new/old parts you like.
  • I wouldn’t bother finding someone to braze on a real cable port unless you want to spend the money. Obviously, you’d do this before refinishing.
  • That stem doesn’t look good. I’d call around to local shops to see if they have a used quill stem sitting in a parts bin.
  • You’ve removed plenty of the old from those rims. Take a look at the hub bearings to see if they need service.
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