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Park just copied the Abbey HAG tool

Old 03-11-21, 09:32 PM
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wgscott
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Park just copied the Abbey HAG tool

cf: https://www.parktool.com/product/der...nt-gauge-dag-3

I still like Abbey's version better, and I am not sorry I bought it, but this looks like a significant improvement. The price is significantly less than the Abbey tool.
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Old 03-11-21, 10:23 PM
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Not even close to being a copy.
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Old 03-12-21, 08:31 AM
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I don't understand what the real difference is between any of these. Don't they all work on the same principle? You thread the tool into the hangar. There is a bar that pivots around that hangar , with a depth gauge that slides up and down the bar.

Is there something else?

Is it just how nicely they are machined and finished? That Abbey certainly look a lot nicer.
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Old 03-12-21, 09:19 AM
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Is the Abbey Tool a copy of this? https://www.parktool.com/product/der...-gauge-dag-2-2
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Old 03-12-21, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
I don't understand what the real difference is between any of these. Don't they all work on the same principle? You thread the tool into the hangar. There is a bar that pivots around that hangar , with a depth gauge that slides up and down the bar.

Is there something else?

Is it just how nicely they are machined and finished? That Abbey certainly look a lot nicer.
i have the DAG-1 and the DAG-3 looks like a significant improvement over the original. In the original, sliding the indicator rod to the full circumference of the rim requires loosening the knob that holds the slide pin (or indicator rod whatever you want to call it) and then somehow remembering where the tiny O-rings originally resided along the rod in order to average or really guesstimate how close you were getting to have the derailleur hanger be set properly.

The new head that can be pivoted to clear seat stays then pivoted back without losing the settings looks like a huge improvement over the original. The original DAG-1 is very robust and I don’t know if pro mechanics self teach themselves the most efficient way to use it but for me I got close to perfect but the awkwardness of the tool usually made me usually settle for good enough.
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Old 03-12-21, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
No, thankfully.

That has a lot more play in it, and what masi61 said.

Also, it is much smaller and more portable, so you can put it in a tool box and bring it with you.

Last edited by wgscott; 03-12-21 at 09:45 AM.
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Old 03-12-21, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by masi61 View Post
i have the DAG-1 and the DAG-3 looks like a significant improvement over the original. In the original, sliding the indicator rod to the full circumference of the rim requires loosening the knob that holds the slide pin (or indicator rod whatever you want to call it) and then somehow remembering where the tiny O-rings originally resided along the rod in order to average or really guesstimate how close you were getting to have the derailleur hanger be set properly.

The new head that can be pivoted to clear seat stays then pivoted back without losing the settings looks like a huge improvement over the original. The original DAG-1 is very robust and I donít know if pro mechanics self teach themselves the most efficient way to use it but for me I got close to perfect but the awkwardness of the tool usually made me usually settle for good enough.
The pivoting holder is probably nicer to use but I have no issues with the original DAG design. The o-ring acts as a placeholder for the rod for when you need to rotate the gauge which requires retracting the rod first. Place the o-ring up against the proximal sliding rod holder face when taking your initial measurement. Retract the rod, rotate the gauge, adjust the sliding holder as necessary then advance the rod. The distance of the o-ring from the sliding holder will indicate how far out your hanger is. I always measure at the bottom first so that the rod doesn't want to slide too far in when taking the second measurement. Hangers are almost always bent in toward the non-drive side.

To be honest, I lost those o-rings long ago and now just use a small piece of black Gorilla tape as my placeholder. There's enough friction on the sliding holder that I never bother with the locking knob either. I check the hanger alignment in a few spots using the rod like a dipstick, adjust, re-check, adjust, re-check, and done. I have 11 speed Shimano working flawlessly on a 28 year old frame so it works precisely enough for me.
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Old 03-12-21, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
No, thankfully.

That has a lot more play in it, and what masi61 said.

Also, it is much smaller and more portable, so you can put it in a tool box and bring it with you.
I've never had issues with play but smaller would be nice. If I'm traveling to work on a bike I will nearly always have my big, bulky stand in tow so I'm actually less concerned then about space than I am just storing it in my toolbox.
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Old 03-12-21, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by masi61 View Post
i have the DAG-1 and the DAG-3 looks like a significant improvement over the original. In the original, sliding the indicator rod to the full circumference of the rim requires loosening the knob that holds the slide pin (or indicator rod whatever you want to call it) and then somehow remembering where the tiny O-rings originally resided along the rod in order to average or really guesstimate how close you were getting to have the derailleur hanger be set properly.

The new head that can be pivoted to clear seat stays then pivoted back without losing the settings looks like a huge improvement over the original. The original DAG-1 is very robust and I donít know if pro mechanics self teach themselves the most efficient way to use it but for me I got close to perfect but the awkwardness of the tool usually made me usually settle for good enough.
Huh. I've got the DAG 2 which I thought works the same as the DAG 1. I don't have to remember where the o-ring is. Once I hit the deepest spot, the outboard o-ring stays put and indicates how deep the deepest reading is. Everything else is measured relative to that. I don't loose the setting moving around the wheel. You just pull the pin back, rather than rotating it out of the way. I never tighten the knob.

I guess with an actual gauge, after you find the deepest spot, you might not have to go back to the other side of the wheel to see how far out it is if you remember all the numbers as you work your way around. Other than that I'm not seeing what the difference is.

The fact that the HAG folds up smaller seems really nice. The DAG 2 is pretty large and never fits in my tool drawer without some futzing. I never travel with the DAG on a bike trip, but I might throw the HAG in my box.

Last edited by Kapusta; 09-22-21 at 06:20 AM.
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Old 03-12-21, 08:01 PM
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The DAG3 looks like a significant improvement over the 2.2, but not in the same league as the Abbey. The Abbey is accurate and compact. My only grip with the Abbey is that you can't let the tool "hang" if you need to do something else, or the head slides off.

If you've ever used the EVT Ultra Tru-Arc, then all of this discussion is irrelevant. That one is by far my favorite.
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Old 03-12-21, 08:42 PM
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...sometimes I feel really, really old here. $185 is more than I paid for my first used car.
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Old 03-12-21, 09:51 PM
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I cannot remember what I did when I last addressed my hanger alignment but I did it with a metric bolt and items I had on hand. Worked out so well that spending what I've seen for those tools (and having to store it) just seemed "why?". Getting to within a mm at the rim was a piece of cake and no one can convince me that derailleurs need more. (Just recalled - tweaking the hanger with a large crescent wrench - and doing it just a tiny bit - is really easy! Did it sitting on the floor with my feet against the bike.)
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Old 03-13-21, 07:10 AM
  #13  
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↑ ↑ ↑ I am no pro like these gents but do like nice tools. That said $100++ seems excessive when $10 for a chunk of 3/4" square bar from Home Depot, a 10mm bolt with greased washers and a couple nuts to tension, a steel rule and I get within a mm easy on my family and friends rims.
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Old 03-13-21, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by aggiegrads View Post
The DAG3 looks like a significant improvement over the 2.2, but not in the same league as the Abbey. The Abbey is accurate and compact. My only grip with the Abbey is that you can't let the tool "hang" if you need to do something else, or the head slides off.

If you've ever used the EVT Ultra Tru-Arc, then all of this discussion is irrelevant. That one is by far my favorite.
To me it looks like Park used the EVT Ultra Tru-Arc as the baseline rather than the Abbey HAG.
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Old 03-13-21, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
I cannot remember what I did when I last addressed my hanger alignment but I did it with a metric bolt and items I had on hand. Worked out so well that spending what I've seen for those tools (and having to store it) just seemed "why?". Getting to within a mm at the rim was a piece of cake and no one can convince me that derailleurs need more. (Just recalled - tweaking the hanger with a large crescent wrench - and doing it just a tiny bit - is really easy! Did it sitting on the floor with my feet against the bike.)
How could you tell that your hanger was aligned to within a millimeter at the rim just using a large crescent wrench? That other issue with that method is possibly distorting the hanger threads making reinstalling the rear derailleur a pain. I definitely agree that within a millimeter is good enough. Rims aren't perfectly true and dropouts/frames aren't perfectly aligned. No point in trying to make something 'perfect' referencing an imperfect system.

BTW, I am NOT against spending good money on tools, especially if they'll get used often. The joy in working with quality tools is often enough to justify the price though it helps if that tool also makes you money in use.
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Old 03-13-21, 10:19 AM
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One trick is to thread an extra solid-axle wheel into the derailleur hanger and use that to align it parallel with the bike's rear wheel.
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Old 03-13-21, 10:27 AM
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I'm using a cheap knock-off found online. A friend and I went in on the $60 so that we can share the tool. It has already been passed around to several of my buddies. I'll admit that mine isn't as fancy as those others and it might take a bit more work in order to get it adjusted correctly and come up with a reading... but for something that I might be using once every other year I'm not too concerned about the advanced features the others have.
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Old 03-13-21, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
How could you tell that your hanger was aligned to within a millimeter at the rim just using a large crescent wrench?
.
He checked it with a DAG
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Old 03-13-21, 10:34 AM
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I never had a use for a DAG until I went with 10 speed. I use it a lot now with 11 speed. DAG 2 was worth every freaking penny, IMO.
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Old 03-13-21, 10:35 AM
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After reading this thread, I want a Park Tools DAG-3. The price seems reasonable. Now the challenge: How do I get one. I see no on-line sellers who have any in stock and the Park Tools website say that the item is out of stock. If anybody knows who has them and how much you paid, could you post it here?
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Old 03-13-21, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
How could you tell that your hanger was aligned to within a millimeter at the rim just using a large crescent wrench? That other issue with that method is possibly distorting the hanger threads making reinstalling the rear derailleur a pain. I definitely agree that within a millimeter is good enough. Rims aren't perfectly true and dropouts/frames aren't perfectly aligned. No point in trying to make something 'perfect' referencing an imperfect system.

BTW, I am NOT against spending good money on tools, especially if they'll get used often. The joy in working with quality tools is often enough to justify the price though it helps if that tool also makes you money in use.
I checked the alignment with improvised metric bolt (I think I actually used a rear axle) and misc stuff I had on hand, NOT the crescent wrench!
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Old 03-13-21, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by masi61 View Post
After reading this thread, I want a Park Tools DAG-3. The price seems reasonable. Now the challenge: How do I get one. I see no on-line sellers who have any in stock and the Park Tools website say that the item is out of stock. If anybody knows who has them and how much you paid, could you post it here?
Get the Abbey HAG. It is mo' better.
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Old 03-13-21, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
Get the Abbey HAG. It is mo' better.

...I'm sure it's better than my first used car.
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Old 03-13-21, 04:10 PM
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The Park Tool DAG is a fine tool but is not a copy of Abbey. The only real copy derailleur hanger alignment tool (DHAT) is the EVT tool and the Shimano TL-RD11 but I don't know the history on that (I do know that EVT founder is in the Shimano Patent)

If I were going for a DHAT it would be Abbey unless I was using the tool a lot then I would go EVT but EVT is also super expensive. I like the Shimano TL-RD11 as well and would be cheaper than EVT but I want a more compact and lightweight tool for my usage.
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Old 03-14-21, 05:12 PM
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There's this one: https://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/...alignment-tool that uses the dropouts as reference vice wheel rim. Downside is you need a set of adapters for through-axle vs QR. But I'm not sure that you get the same accuracy (though the DAG-style assumes the rim is aligned with the cassette).

scott s.
.
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