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Old 03-26-21, 07:35 AM
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Painting

I sprayed a common brand of clear coat over color coats of the same brand paint, and watched horrified as the paint on a steel frame that I had been working on for weeks crinkled like crushed aluminum foil. A call to the HELP! line of the paint manufacturer informed me that the clear is lacquer, the colors are enamel, the two are incompatible, and that sometimes it will work, and often exactly what happened on my bike frame happens, and that it's not possible to know beforehand. Has anyone else had this miserable experience?
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Old 03-26-21, 07:56 AM
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Many years ago in a land far far away when I was a young teen, I was working on a tube amp for a band and decided that the green painted steel cage needed a quick clear coat to freshen it up and did the same thing. The band loved the crinkle coast finish look and wanted it to stay ..... beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
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Old 03-26-21, 08:02 AM
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You MIGHT be able to put enamel over lacquer, but trying the opposite will often/usually result in the issue you are having. I'll bet that somewhere in the fine print on the lacquer can is a warning against applying over enamel.
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Old 03-26-21, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by dsbrantjr View Post
I'll bet that somewhere in the fine print on the lacquer can is a warning against applying over enamel.
Nope.
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Old 03-26-21, 08:14 AM
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.
...that sounds painful. FWIW. the 2part urethane clear coats, like Spraymax 2K, seem to work well over anything I've put them on. They are more expensive.
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Old 03-26-21, 08:14 AM
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The incompatibility between lacquer and enamel is well known and has been referenced on many rattle can instructions for many decades. Whether that was on your can (or some "coat with compatible paint" phrase) or not we can't say. With my old eyes I need a magnifier to read that fine print "common brand of clear coat over color coats of the same brand paint" isn't the same as being the same formulation as many companies make both types and they can be side by side on the shelf.

Sorry to hear of this boo boo. Painting is harder to do well then most initially think. Andy
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Old 03-26-21, 08:28 AM
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Rattle cans? I've had wrinkles recoating with the same rattle can. Yes, for the last 10 or more years that's the way rattle can paint behaves since they've changed up the formulations. You have to really read the recoat instructions and adhere to them, cross your fingers and hope all the planets and stars are aligned for you.

And they don't tell you what type of paint they really are, so you have to dig into their product numbers to find other compatible things to overcoat them with.

Last edited by Iride01; 03-26-21 at 08:31 AM.
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Old 03-26-21, 08:50 AM
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Now I know, but trust me, there is no caution or warning of any kind, except the ones for health, fire & ventilation. And neither rattle can identifies the content as lacquer or enamel. The clear is described as acrylic, that's all.
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Old 03-26-21, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
You have to really read the recoat instructions and adhere to them, cross your fingers and hope all the planets and stars are aligned for you.
The last two, as I read every word of the recoat instructions and followed them perfectly.
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Old 03-26-21, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln View Post
The last two, as I read every word of the recoat instructions and followed them perfectly.
You missed out on key parts of my advice....

You have to really read the recoat instructions and adhere to them, cross your fingers and hope all the planets and stars are aligned for you.
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Old 03-26-21, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
You missed out on key parts of my advice....

I didn't miss, that's exactly what I meant. Now I'm kicking myself for not having a personal astrologer.
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Old 03-26-21, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
.
...that sounds painful. FWIW. the 2part urethane clear coats, like Spraymax 2K, seem to work well over anything I've put them on. They are more expensive.
I considered this, but decided against not because it's pricier, but as I don't have a workshop, nor all the protective equipment.
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Old 03-26-21, 09:32 AM
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It always baffles me when I read bike owners from the UK write, casually, "it had a respray in xxxx year," or "it's had two resprays since." Here in the US it's very difficult to find someone who will paint a bike frame--there's no one in the NYC area that I know of, and no auto body shop I've been to wants to take one on. Although there are a few specialists in the country their work, though fantastic, is so expensive that unless the frame is truly something special, it doesn't seem to make sense. Just shipping a bike frame will cost well over $100, round trip. I've heard rumors of someone local who'll do a powder coat, but that isn't really the same.
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Old 03-26-21, 10:03 AM
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Ask around the LBS's and they might know someone that paints or powder coats. Ask around some of the auto part stores or auto paint supply stores if they know of any that will do small side jobs.

If you aren't particular about color, some might do it with the paint or powder they'd normally waste cleaning up after a job. Be sure you know what or if they'll do anything for threaded holes and areas where you don't want paint or powder. You might need to plug those yourself.

Back to the rattle can issue.....

Sometimes you just need to wait a month or two before top coating with another product, or sometimes even the same product. I have never had the 48, 72 hours or number of days they specified work. What has been better for me with rattle cans is re-coating within the re-coat time and if a compatible clear is used then do it before the re-coat time expires. But that precludes you being able to sand things for a super smooth finish.
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Old 03-26-21, 10:54 AM
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Motorcycle shops that see some fancy/custom stuff is another good source for painters. Most painters I have used (up to 13 by now) have also painted cars, motorcycles, snow or wave machines. Powder painters often do residential work (walk railings, old tools and such).

More then a few years ago there was the Color Factory in the NYC area. They did low cost wet sprays. The couple of frames I made that they painted were good enough in my eyes although I was fairly specific in reviewing their methods (prep, primer and decals w/ clear coating)

One thing I would avoid is a powder coat then clear rattle can over the PC. I have been told by a couple of PCers that non powder coat paint won't stay attached to the PC and will flake/delaminate off. The shop that I use for PC also has done wet sprays too. That's what I have had done for the last couple of frames I made. I applied decals and did a clear coat from a can after with no issues. I did make sure the wet sprays were enamels though. Andy
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Old 03-26-21, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
Sometimes you just need to wait a month or two before top coating with another product,
This is what I'm thinking. Let the enamel cure a while longer before trying again with a light, final spritz of the clear coat.Just enough to give it a bit of lustre, as I've sanded away the gloss completely and now it's dead flat.
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Old 03-26-21, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
the Color Factory in the NYC area.
My LBS has mentioned them, but I don't think they're around anymore.I hadn't thought of motorcycle painters. That's a good idea. Clearly they have experience with tubing and awkward shapes.
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Old 03-26-21, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
What has been better for me with rattle cans is re-coating within the re-coat time and if a compatible clear is used then do it before the re-coat time expires. But that precludes you being able to sand things for a super smooth finish.
This is exactly what the customer service guy I spoke with suggested--apply the clear coat within 20 minutes, before the enamel sets up. I replied exactly the same thing about then not being able to sand the surface smooth.
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Old 03-26-21, 01:30 PM
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may or may not be of any help, but unless it is a super special frame (which I would get a pro to do with paint) I will never paint a frame again....powdercoat only. it might be less hassle and cost just to take your frame to a powder coater....they normally include a strip as part of the price (at least in my area), I would expect a LBS with broad based service could have this done for you or give you a reference.

Good luck
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Old 03-26-21, 01:58 PM
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Ouch.. I feel for you. I just finished 14-15 hours of prepping a frame (stripping paint to bare metal, steel) and will be facing a rattle can paint job once it warms up outside. I'll be using

Specialist Paints
https://usa.specialistpaints.com/col...m-aerosol-cans
or
Automotive Touchup
https://www.automotivetouchup.com/

paint, I think. They make systems that play well together. Other options are House of Kolor or Duplicolor.

Automotive grade rattle cans can be a bit pricier, but in the grand scheme of things..cost is minor. Invest in a chemical vapor mask too.

At this point, if I were you, I'd get some chemical stripper and start over, rather than investing time and money in salvage work. The paint should strip off very quickly(unlike the paint I just stripped off..it was a beast).
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Old 03-26-21, 02:16 PM
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That sucks
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Old 03-26-21, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln View Post
I considered this, but decided against not because it's pricier, but as I don't have a workshop, nor all the protective equipment.
...if you have a small back yard, or similar outdoor space, you can get good results . You do need to buy a respirator mask that is rated for the stuff. Home Depot sells one in the $30-35 dollar range, made by 3M. I won't use that stuff indoors either.
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Old 03-26-21, 02:53 PM
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Two frames from last summer, hanging from the roof gutter in back of the garage, curing after the final clear urethane spray coat.
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Old 03-26-21, 03:08 PM
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If you think you want to try your had at using a gravity feed gun or a cup sprayer, you can buy some pretty cheap ones at Harbor Freight. If they are still in the $8 or $9 dollar range like they use to be, then get several. They'll work great the first time. Then just throw them away after each coat. It'll save you the time and money the solvents you'll need to clean it properly.

Once you really get good at using a sprayer, then you might want to invest in a 200 to 500 dollar or more sprayer. But I just like the cheapo's and use them like a disposable paint brush.

Duplicolor Laquer was some of the easiest paint I have recently sprayed with excellent results. Almost if not as good and easy to spray as the old nitro-cellulose stuff we used to paint our cars with. I could sand it for the next coat within a half hour on nice days.
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Old 03-27-21, 04:31 AM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
...if you have a small back yard, or similar outdoor space, you can get good results .
You get some protection from the breeze and dust blowing around in your spot?
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