Rims too tight -- sandpaper them down?
05-05-21, 06:25 AM
#76
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Thread Starter
Originally Posted by veganbikes
Ahhh you know all the tips and tricks, that is great, you should share them all here because I know that there are some I haven't yet learned and my boss who has been working in bike shops for over 30 years probably doesn't know ALL of the tips and tricks, I mean he knows a lot but not all like you. I also have some other mechanic friends who have been doing it for 20 years+ who would love to hear all the rest they don't yet know.
I mean if you knew all of the tips and tricks you would have those tires on already because some of those tips and tricks work quite well for tougher beads. Also someone who knew all those tips and tricks wouldn't ever go to lets just start removing material on the thing that holds the tire and you brake on which further wears down the rim but of course you know them all and tried them all so who I am I to judge. As it says in the Torah "Only Judy can judge me".
I just hope one day to ascend to your level of greatness that I can know everything and yet still somehow have an issue and think to myself what is the most dangerous way I can solve my issue and then when people give me useful advice I can shoot them down like Manfred Von Richtofen in WW1.
The way you have acted makes me want to say "try this at home" but the person who has worked in shops for the past 10 years and the bicycle rider and lover in me says DON'T DO IT DUDE, COME ON! Seriously if you are having trouble then ask for help and accept it, if you want someone to say yeah go for it then go down to the local hobby supply shop buy some modeling glue take a big sniff and go for it.
I mean if you knew all of the tips and tricks you would have those tires on already because some of those tips and tricks work quite well for tougher beads. Also someone who knew all those tips and tricks wouldn't ever go to lets just start removing material on the thing that holds the tire and you brake on which further wears down the rim but of course you know them all and tried them all so who I am I to judge. As it says in the Torah "Only Judy can judge me".
I just hope one day to ascend to your level of greatness that I can know everything and yet still somehow have an issue and think to myself what is the most dangerous way I can solve my issue and then when people give me useful advice I can shoot them down like Manfred Von Richtofen in WW1.
The way you have acted makes me want to say "try this at home" but the person who has worked in shops for the past 10 years and the bicycle rider and lover in me says DON'T DO IT DUDE, COME ON! Seriously if you are having trouble then ask for help and accept it, if you want someone to say yeah go for it then go down to the local hobby supply shop buy some modeling glue take a big sniff and go for it.
Cheers,
Jon.
05-05-21, 06:32 AM
#77
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Chuck M
The OP just needs one person to validate his idea. This happens on every internet forum for everything. Once someone does this and claims it works, there will be a plethora of what type of sandpaper to use and if a disk or belt sander is better/faster posts.
05-05-21, 06:41 AM
#78
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by thook
jesnow a micrometer sure would make it easier and more accurate. google micrometer and see what i mean. you could use the caliper going around from where each nipple enters the rim and to the rim edge. i mean, you really may only need to take off less than a mm. and, i'd think that would be a better idea than taking off more than that in isolated spots so you could get the tire on. it'd be uneven and those spots would be even weaker. follow?
05-05-21, 06:52 AM
#79
Junior Member
Thread Starter
I did find this (link below), where a user writes in that he ground off the *hook* on the inside to make it easier to remove a *tubeless* tire. I'd say also: I wouldn't do that. Probably not a great idea. The hook is indeed *not* all that is holding the tire on the rim. I had many hookless rims back in the day that I ran at high pressures, no issues. But the Conti tire does say in big letters on it "Nur auf Hakenfelgen montieren" and we must obey. Once you go tubeless, you have all kinds of issues that are different than the tubeful ones described here. I don't want to get into that debate. But I would say preserving the integrity of the hooked rim is important.
https://www.roadbikerider.com/too-tight-tubeless-tires/
https://www.roadbikerider.com/too-tight-tubeless-tires/
05-05-21, 07:08 AM
#80
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Originally Posted by jesnow
I know what a micrometer is. But I've never seen one that will open 60mm wide. And they are freakishly expensive. They typically have small round measuring surfaces where the object you're measuring has to be perfectly aligned. The digital calipers will have to do -- they have 2 places of precision. These are 60mm rims (see the picture up the thread) and there's no reason to think that the carbon/resin part is as precise on the inside as the extruded and milled aluminum braking surface. I did calculate how much I would need to take off and it's *way* less than a mm. When I measured the total rim thickness (with fairing) it came out to 60.02, so that makes me think it might work to measure that way with the calipers.
05-05-21, 07:08 AM
#81
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Originally Posted by jesnow
Yes I know this trick. These particular tires (conti GP 5K) were mounted for several months on my track bike. Ridden many times at the velodrome at high pressure. Contis are known for being a little tight to get on, especially the foldable ones. But I always use them, I have them on my current rims (Dura Ace C50) my TT bike (well, gatorskins, but they're tight too). But the thing is: all of my current wheels predate the tubeless craze, when manufacturers seem to be deliberately adding material to the rim. Several posters above have spoken to this, so I'm thinking it's not just my imagination.
...
Dude.
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05-05-21, 09:08 AM
#82
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The actual rim diameter measurement is not really important. The comparative diameter to other rims, or to a single rim, is important.
My assumption is that you will use some sort of fixture, even the rear dropouts of a frame, to maintain some semblance of consistent material removal.
It is possible to take a threaded rod and cut it slightly longer than the diameter of the rim. Then attach a washer, (a clip or flat stock would be better), on each end with a couple of nuts. Adjust the clips to where they reflect the diameter of the new rim. As you “slowly” remove material you can check with automotive feeler gauges to see your progress.
Any laced, or unlaced, rim will have some degree of radial runout. Depending on how far into the weeds you want to go, you can mark the variances at different points around the rim prior to any removal.
You can obviously use a truing stand and do the same, but it will require removing the rim from the fixture multiple times and probably be more of a hassle.
John
My assumption is that you will use some sort of fixture, even the rear dropouts of a frame, to maintain some semblance of consistent material removal.
It is possible to take a threaded rod and cut it slightly longer than the diameter of the rim. Then attach a washer, (a clip or flat stock would be better), on each end with a couple of nuts. Adjust the clips to where they reflect the diameter of the new rim. As you “slowly” remove material you can check with automotive feeler gauges to see your progress.
Any laced, or unlaced, rim will have some degree of radial runout. Depending on how far into the weeds you want to go, you can mark the variances at different points around the rim prior to any removal.
You can obviously use a truing stand and do the same, but it will require removing the rim from the fixture multiple times and probably be more of a hassle.
John
05-05-21, 09:14 AM
#83
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Originally Posted by Steelman54
Kool stop tire bead jack, but you know this...
I have lightly sanded rims only to smooth over a gouge or defect, but never to reduce the rim wall depth.
05-05-21, 10:24 AM
#84
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Originally Posted by jesnow
So far I have had 11 very helpful posts in this thread, ones that told me things I didn't already know. I want to thank pdlamb, 70San0 79Pmooner, THook and UrbanKnight for thinking about my question and answering thoughtfully.
15 other people answered in some way that while not moving the ball was at least non-insulting, and thank you too.
To the 21 people who answered negatively including especially Growlerdinky Koyote and shelbyfv, why don't you just leave it alone when you're ignorant on some topic instead of coming back and insulting people? You guys (and you know it's guys who do this) are probably just the same out on the road. Too much testosterone or something. You might dial that stuff back. You give cycling a bad name.
Anyway I'm pretty sure I know now how much material to remove and where. You can calculate the length mismatch from the chord length (~1mm), and from that you can calculate how much material to take off from one side of the chord, and it doesn't even come close to the thickness of the bead, which is twice as thick as it needs to be. The measurement of difference in rim circumference between new and old rims checks with the calculated mismatch between rim and tire -- again around a mm of circumference ie 0.15 mm radius. This is nothing, impossible to see on a truing stand, but (my prediction) makes the difference between popping a tire on real quick and an uber ride home with sore thumbs. I can't seem to figure out how to post pictures, or I'd show some photographic evidence.
I have the sandpaper and stuff, but I'm not doing it tonight. Probably over the weekend.
If I'm right or wrong, I will post here and y'all can call me an idiot some more.
Cheers,
Jon.
15 other people answered in some way that while not moving the ball was at least non-insulting, and thank you too.
To the 21 people who answered negatively including especially Growlerdinky Koyote and shelbyfv, why don't you just leave it alone when you're ignorant on some topic instead of coming back and insulting people? You guys (and you know it's guys who do this) are probably just the same out on the road. Too much testosterone or something. You might dial that stuff back. You give cycling a bad name.
Anyway I'm pretty sure I know now how much material to remove and where. You can calculate the length mismatch from the chord length (~1mm), and from that you can calculate how much material to take off from one side of the chord, and it doesn't even come close to the thickness of the bead, which is twice as thick as it needs to be. The measurement of difference in rim circumference between new and old rims checks with the calculated mismatch between rim and tire -- again around a mm of circumference ie 0.15 mm radius. This is nothing, impossible to see on a truing stand, but (my prediction) makes the difference between popping a tire on real quick and an uber ride home with sore thumbs. I can't seem to figure out how to post pictures, or I'd show some photographic evidence.
I have the sandpaper and stuff, but I'm not doing it tonight. Probably over the weekend.
If I'm right or wrong, I will post here and y'all can call me an idiot some more.
Cheers,
Jon.
Unless I am missing something, I teased you a bit, and then said you were smart.
That gives cycling a bad name? Not cyclists. Cycling?
You are sensitive. Noted.
*EDIT: I missed where I said "sand the beads". I crossed the line there, right?
Last edited by growlerdinky; 05-05-21 at 10:26 AM. Reason: pay attention to the thread. stay on topic.
05-05-21, 10:28 AM
#85
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I gained some weight over the off-season, and my bibs got a little tight. Out came the drum sander.
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05-05-21, 10:37 AM
#86
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Originally Posted by jesnow
Quite right, I post a serious question here and people here get their nose out of joint and post stuff that will get people hurt if they follow it. Somebody should report that post, but I just sort of ignored it.
I've been spending more than enough brain power thinking about this whole situation, so at once I come back to see you run your head into the wall a couple more times but I also want to know more details. You still haven't shared the specific tire/rim combo you're struggling with. The other thing I thought of (wasting brain power on this instead of literally anything else), was the tire levers you broke. What tire levers do you use? There are some that are horrifically cheap. Not Pedros, though, and if you aren't using Pedros, then maybe it's the lever.
Shrug. Good F*&ING luck.
05-05-21, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by jesnow
To be clear I can get the tire on and off, using the usual tricks (I don't bring an experienced mechanic on rides with me usually), but it requires about 10x the normal amount of force. This is not normal, these tires were on other wheels just fine. The problem is the rim.
that said I am pretty conservative and still would not sand the rims
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05-05-21, 03:11 PM
#88
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Kimmo
I let everything else go, but at the end of page two I see Gatorskins on your TT bike.
...
Dude.
...
Dude.
Yeah yeah, excuses excuses, I know.
05-05-21, 03:26 PM
#89
Junior Member
Thread Starter
So many people have asked me the specific tire-rim combo so:
New "Cheap Chinese Carbon"
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I will do a separate write up of these wheels, they are in fact pretty awesome beyond being tough to put tires on.
Tires tried (both after months of use on other bikes):
https://www.amazon.com/Continental-G...g-goods&sr=1-2
https://www.amazon.com/Grand-Prix-Bl...g-goods&sr=1-1
The 4000 and 5000 (not tubeless) awe awesome tires, but not tight on any of my other rims, including:
Shimano Dura Ace C50 Carbon/Aluminum
Fulcrum Race 5
Weinmann SP77 (track)
"TK" (??) Track
I have Mavic ksyrium rims on my cross bike but haven't tried road tires on them.
New "Cheap Chinese Carbon"
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I will do a separate write up of these wheels, they are in fact pretty awesome beyond being tough to put tires on.
Tires tried (both after months of use on other bikes):
https://www.amazon.com/Continental-G...g-goods&sr=1-2
https://www.amazon.com/Grand-Prix-Bl...g-goods&sr=1-1
The 4000 and 5000 (not tubeless) awe awesome tires, but not tight on any of my other rims, including:
Shimano Dura Ace C50 Carbon/Aluminum
Fulcrum Race 5
Weinmann SP77 (track)
"TK" (??) Track
I have Mavic ksyrium rims on my cross bike but haven't tried road tires on them.
05-05-21, 03:36 PM
#90
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by squirtdad
This is helpful to know. (wasn't clear up front) I have found once I have a tight tire combo (tight means I had to use a Kooljack to get it on), I wait a week or so (tires inflated full to max allowed) and then do a simulated road fix, and have found generally after being on the rims for while they are easier to get off and on. I have had to use metal levers once or twice (Lezyne makes nice ones so it might be worth a look https://ride.lezyne.com/collections/tire-levers ) for really tight combos. FWIW this is part of why tubeless is not a direction I am going
that said I am pretty conservative and still would not sand the rims
that said I am pretty conservative and still would not sand the rims
After doing the math I'm pretty confident, so hold my beer and watch this. Expect some actual news this weekend. I promised to post no matter what the result, which I will do.
05-05-21, 03:48 PM
#91
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Thread Starter
Originally Posted by 70sSanO
The actual rim diameter measurement is not really important. The comparative diameter to other rims, or to a single rim, is important.
My assumption is that you will use some sort of fixture, even the rear dropouts of a frame, to maintain some semblance of consistent material removal.
It is possible to take a threaded rod and cut it slightly longer than the diameter of the rim. Then attach a washer, (a clip or flat stock would be better), on each end with a couple of nuts. Adjust the clips to where they reflect the diameter of the new rim. As you “slowly” remove material you can check with automotive feeler gauges to see your progress.
Any laced, or unlaced, rim will have some degree of radial runout. Depending on how far into the weeds you want to go, you can mark the variances at different points around the rim prior to any removal.
You can obviously use a truing stand and do the same, but it will require removing the rim from the fixture multiple times and probably be more of a hassle.
John
My assumption is that you will use some sort of fixture, even the rear dropouts of a frame, to maintain some semblance of consistent material removal.
It is possible to take a threaded rod and cut it slightly longer than the diameter of the rim. Then attach a washer, (a clip or flat stock would be better), on each end with a couple of nuts. Adjust the clips to where they reflect the diameter of the new rim. As you “slowly” remove material you can check with automotive feeler gauges to see your progress.
Any laced, or unlaced, rim will have some degree of radial runout. Depending on how far into the weeds you want to go, you can mark the variances at different points around the rim prior to any removal.
You can obviously use a truing stand and do the same, but it will require removing the rim from the fixture multiple times and probably be more of a hassle.
John
I'm also thinking I don't need to remove material all the way around. Just the critical part where the bead is when you're squeezing it on the last bit on one side. If that's more than 15cm of circumference I'd be really surprised. I tried out measuring thickness of the whole rim, carbon fairing and all, and it's surprisingly consistent, 60.04+/-2mm everywhere I measured. So if I measure at several points in the area I'm sanding, and go slowly, I can control the amount sanded pretty carefully, and keep material removed to a minimum.
That means of course there will only be one place on the rim I can put the tire on, and only on one side, but I can live with that. I'll put a sticker of some kind on it so I can find it.
05-05-21, 04:40 PM
#92
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If you are only taking off .2mm, .008”, I can’t imagine there would be an issue.
John
John
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05-05-21, 05:29 PM
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Sanding sounds ok. Make sure you have a belt sander, go pro, tripod, gimble, selfie stick and youtube account. Video the sanding then video on a large downhill with gimble or selfie stick. If you do it well the views should pay the hospital bills and rehab.
Or just find tires that fit.
Or just find tires that fit.
Last edited by stevel610; 05-05-21 at 05:33 PM.
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05-05-21, 05:40 PM
#94
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Originally Posted by 70sSanO
If you are only taking off .2mm, .008”, I can’t imagine there would be an issue.
John
John
05-05-21, 06:53 PM
#95
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Now it comes out they're carbon rims?
Cue the second round of doomsayers.
Cue the second round of doomsayers.
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Sheldon Brown's bike info ~~~ Park Tools repair help
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05-05-21, 08:07 PM
#96
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Originally Posted by jesnow
So here's another toxic unhelpful post. Could you please go away? Maybe I should start reporting these to the forum admins. If you don't know some of the ways to get a tight tire onto a rim go google it. That wasn't the question.
Cheers,
Jon.
Cheers,
Jon.
Go ahead and report you won't get anywhere you came in hostile and have been hostile the entire time. You want to ask a question then accept answers to it and say "hey thanks for the answer" and if you already tried that say "hey thanks I already tried that no luck what now?" even the best mechanics are always still learning and asking questions. Anyone who comes in saying I know everything you can't help me but asks a question anyway is clearly someone missing a load of knowledge and is insecure about that which you have no reason to be. We are not here to judge we are here to answer questions and talk about bikes and sometimes be people on the internet but in the end you can get a lot of good help being nice and humble than being a jerk.
That is all some real advice take it or don't but if you take it and apologize you will get quite far in life otherwise have a great life being the absolute expert on everything who can never learn a thing and doesn't need help even when they actually really need help.
05-05-21, 09:34 PM
#97
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hahaha....wow. it's "as the forum turns".....
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05-06-21, 07:08 AM
#98
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Originally Posted by thook
hahaha....wow. it's "as the forum turns".....
Either way...
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05-06-21, 07:36 AM
#99
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Originally Posted by Kimmo
Now it comes out they're carbon rims?
Originally Posted by veganbikes
But you are the expert, that is why I asked for all the tips and tricks because you said you knew "ALL THE TIPS AND TRICKS" I don't want google I already have some tips and tricks I want to hear about the ones I don't know of I enjoy learning from the experts and you came in puffing your chest hard that you are the expert and don't want our help you just want someone to validate you doing something stupid and dangerous to solve a problem that some of those many tips and tricks that exist that you know ALL OF would solve fairly easily.
Go ahead and report you won't get anywhere you came in hostile and have been hostile the entire time. You want to ask a question then accept answers to it and say "hey thanks for the answer" and if you already tried that say "hey thanks I already tried that no luck what now?" even the best mechanics are always still learning and asking questions. Anyone who comes in saying I know everything you can't help me but asks a question anyway is clearly someone missing a load of knowledge and is insecure about that which you have no reason to be. We are not here to judge we are here to answer questions and talk about bikes and sometimes be people on the internet but in the end you can get a lot of good help being nice and humble than being a jerk.
That is all some real advice take it or don't but if you take it and apologize you will get quite far in life otherwise have a great life being the absolute expert on everything who can never learn a thing and doesn't need help even when they actually really need help.
Go ahead and report you won't get anywhere you came in hostile and have been hostile the entire time. You want to ask a question then accept answers to it and say "hey thanks for the answer" and if you already tried that say "hey thanks I already tried that no luck what now?" even the best mechanics are always still learning and asking questions. Anyone who comes in saying I know everything you can't help me but asks a question anyway is clearly someone missing a load of knowledge and is insecure about that which you have no reason to be. We are not here to judge we are here to answer questions and talk about bikes and sometimes be people on the internet but in the end you can get a lot of good help being nice and humble than being a jerk.
That is all some real advice take it or don't but if you take it and apologize you will get quite far in life otherwise have a great life being the absolute expert on everything who can never learn a thing and doesn't need help even when they actually really need help.
jesnow I applaud you for sticking with the thread and agreeing to show us your results win or lose. You are stronger than many of us.
05-06-21, 08:20 AM
#100
Full Member
Omg................boring.
