Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Bicycle Mechanics
Reload this Page >

3rd broken spoke....

Notices
Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

3rd broken spoke....

Old 05-08-21, 10:54 PM
  #1  
Ryan_M
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Ryan_M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Courtice, Ont.
Posts: 100

Bikes: 2020 Giant Roam 1... at least it was

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked 10 Times in 6 Posts
3rd broken spoke....

I have a 2020 Giant Roam 1 that really only sees paved trails and rail trails, no real off road other than the rare time some erosion might expose the top of rocks or some tree roots. I'm in the process of replacing my 3rd broken spoke on the rear wheel. After the first one broke I got the tools and replaced it and trued the wheel, my first time doing this kind of work. Going by what I found on the net for typical spoke tension which IIRC was 110-120kgf? I went for ~100kgf since these are unknown generic rims so who knows what they can take but that was also quite a bit tighter than they were - some were so loose they were almost rattly. I read somewhere people were using a spectrum analyser on their phone as a way to measure spoke tension and my numbers were close to theirs so results agreed. It took some time but I got the rim within 0.5mm as best I can tell (there's some stickers on the rim and the seam isn't exactly perfect), I also used the Park app for tension and all spokes fell within 10% deviation per side. Probably not pro builder numbers but I think a lot better than stock.

Anyway I thought I did well but maybe not? If it sounds like I did things at least good enough then I'm loosing trust in these wheels (I've been itching to build my first set of wheels anyway), but if it sounds like I'm making some newb mistakes I'd like to hear about it!

Thanks for any help!
Ryan_M is offline  
Likes For Ryan_M:
Old 05-08-21, 11:36 PM
  #2  
alo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 922
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 442 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 224 Times in 159 Posts
I rescued one bike from the trash, and I believe the spokes were weak. I replaced them as they broke. After a time, I just replaced all the others in the back wheel. The front takes less weight, and only two have broken. They seem to break less often. But again, I need to replace them as they break.

It is annoying, but that is most likely why the bike was in the trash, and I got it free.

It actually has narrow rims, which seem to be designed for tubeless tires, and they are very difficult to get tires on and off. I may or may not replace the rims one day. It is probably a good opportunity to use tubeless tires.

You decide what to do. The main thing for me is to use spokes that will not break. In the bike above, it is now unlikely spokes in the back wheel will break again. So it becomes a reliable bike, particularly if I also change all the spokes in the front wheel.

Last edited by alo; 05-08-21 at 11:40 PM.
alo is offline  
Old 05-08-21, 11:42 PM
  #3  
HTupolev
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Seattle
Posts: 3,807
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1741 Post(s)
Liked 864 Times in 424 Posts
If the spokes were extremely badly undertensioned, it's possible that the later failures are simply because the spokes had already taken a lot of fatigue damage before you tensioned them. The solution might be to ether get a new wheel, or rebuild the existing wheel with all-new spokes.
HTupolev is online now  
Likes For HTupolev:
Old 05-09-21, 12:07 AM
  #4  
Ryan_M
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Ryan_M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Courtice, Ont.
Posts: 100

Bikes: 2020 Giant Roam 1... at least it was

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked 10 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by HTupolev View Post
If the spokes were extremely badly undertensioned, it's possible that the later failures are simply because the spokes had already taken a lot of fatigue damage before you tensioned them. The solution might be to ether get a new wheel, or rebuild the existing wheel with all-new spokes.
And theres the thing. I mentioned a couple spokes were very loose, too slack to register a reading on my spoke tension tool. I agree that fatigue is likely to blame... and now I have a wheel that has 25 other spokes that are at some unkown state. It's a minor inconvenience now because I had spares and it's the beginning of the season so rides are 40-60km and close to home but later in the season when rides are away from home and over 100km reliability matters a lot more.

I'm not so inclined to rebuild the wheel with all new spokes. It's certainly valid and wise advice but I don't want to do that for this generic gear, I'll keep them for spares. Ok so I'm also trying to talk myself into getting into a new wheel build.
Ryan_M is offline  
Old 05-09-21, 05:49 AM
  #5  
dedhed
SE Wis
 
dedhed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 7,695

Bikes: '68 Raleigh Sprite, '02 Raleigh C500, '84 Raleigh Gran Prix, '91 Trek 400, 2013 Novara Randonee, 1990 Trek 970

Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1623 Post(s)
Liked 1,221 Times in 806 Posts
Is a 2020 bike under warranty?
dedhed is offline  
Old 05-09-21, 07:02 AM
  #6  
Andrew R Stewart 
Senior Member
 
Andrew R Stewart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 14,926

Bikes: Stewart S&S coupled sport tourer, Stewart Sunday light, Stewart Commuting, Stewart Touring, Co Motion Tandem, Stewart 3-Spd, Stewart Track, Fuji Finest, Raleigh Pro, Trek Cycle Cross, Mongoose tomac ATB, GT Bravado ATB, JCP Folder

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2926 Post(s)
Liked 1,202 Times in 844 Posts
Originally Posted by dedhed View Post
Is a 2020 bike under warranty?
Likely not as far as wheels are concerned. Unless the wheels have been noted for their issues by many others before AND the brand has seen fit to extend a "quiet" warranty (as Trek did with their stupid paired spoked wheels of a decade+ ago). So it is worth going back to the dealer and asking. However that the OP had now changed the wheels substantially with his own servicing all bets are off in my book.

If the OP is considering just replacing the spokes I strongly suggest the rim's current condition is evaluated independent of spoke tension "faking" it's real shape. Loosen all the spokes so the rim has no tugging by them any longer but still is held in place about the hub. Now spin the wheel and look at whether the rim is looking round and flat. If the rim has any real deviation from what a true rim should look like then it's no longer naturally round and/or flat. If this were the case replacing spokes and tensioning up will only mask the rim's basic problem and future reliability will suffer. Andy
__________________
AndrewRStewart
Andrew R Stewart is offline  
Old 05-09-21, 07:03 AM
  #7  
andrewclaus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Golden, CO
Posts: 2,085

Bikes: 2016 Fuji Tread

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 433 Post(s)
Liked 168 Times in 132 Posts
Any chance anyone ever shifted into the spokes, and all the breaks have been on the drive side outside? Check for notches in those spokes.
andrewclaus is offline  
Old 05-09-21, 08:55 PM
  #8  
veganbikes
Clark W. Griswold
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: ,location, location
Posts: 8,453

Bikes: Foundry Chilkoot Ti W/Ultegra Di2, Salsa Timberjack Ti, Cinelli Mash Work RandoCross Fun Time Machine, 1x9 XT Parts Hybrid, Co-Motion Cascadia, Specialized Langster, Phil Wood Apple VeloXS Frame (w/DA 7400), Cilo Road Frame, Proteus frame, Ti 26 MTB

Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2311 Post(s)
Liked 1,264 Times in 862 Posts
That is a failing wheel and is not going to last, it is on a relatively low initial cost bike meaning most of the parts aren't designed to last. You can keep throwing money at it and spending time on it but honestly it will continue to fail. If you are looking to keep the bike I would certainly get another rear wheel ideally from QBP or some place that at least hand finishes wheels however I wouldn't put a ton of money towards that bike.
veganbikes is offline  
Old 05-10-21, 07:22 AM
  #9  
pdlamb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: northern Deep South
Posts: 6,759

Bikes: Fuji Touring, Novara Randonee

Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1547 Post(s)
Liked 735 Times in 461 Posts
Originally Posted by Ryan_M View Post
And theres the thing. I mentioned a couple spokes were very loose, too slack to register a reading on my spoke tension tool. I agree that fatigue is likely to blame... and now I have a wheel that has 25 other spokes that are at some unkown state. It's a minor inconvenience now because I had spares and it's the beginning of the season so rides are 40-60km and close to home but later in the season when rides are away from home and over 100km reliability matters a lot more.
Jobst Brandt told the story about how he got angry after replacing ANOTHER broken spoke. Grabbing the remaining spokes in pairs and squeezing as hard as he could, he lightly re-trued the wheel and used it. And no more spokes broke for a long time. Pondering that episode later, he realized that he'd effectively relieved the stress in the remaining spokes, and started recommending the practice as part of the truing process.

You might try it. It's a bit easier on my white-collar hands with leather gloves, but you can do it bare-handed as well.
pdlamb is offline  
Likes For pdlamb:
Old 05-10-21, 07:18 PM
  #10  
LeeG
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,951
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times in 5 Posts
Originally Posted by Ryan_M View Post
And theres the thing. I mentioned a couple spokes were very loose, too slack to register a reading on my spoke tension tool. I agree that fatigue is likely to blame... and now I have a wheel that has 25 other spokes that are at some unkown state. It's a minor inconvenience now because I had spares and it's the beginning of the season so rides are 40-60km and close to home but later in the season when rides are away from home and over 100km reliability matters a lot more.

I'm not so inclined to rebuild the wheel with all new spokes. It's certainly valid and wise advice but I don't want to do that for this generic gear, I'll keep them for spares. Ok so I'm also trying to talk myself into getting into a new wheel build.
$.02, Buy a medium priced prebuilt wheel from a shop and have them look it over. Then take the old wheel off, take the cassette off. Cut the spokes out and rebuild it yourself using basic straight 14 g spokes on the existing rim. You donít need a wheel built up you just need a wheel you can trust. A new prebuilt wheel will be the cheapest and looked over by a me hanic will be a step the original wheel never had, assuming you are not exceptionally heavy on a wheel not designed for that weight.
LeeG is offline  
Old 05-10-21, 07:29 PM
  #11  
downtube42
Senior Member
 
downtube42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 2,725

Bikes: Soma Fog Cutter, Volae Team, Priority Eight, Nimbus MUni, Trek Roscoe 6.

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 417 Post(s)
Liked 832 Times in 424 Posts
Since you've put the time into it, I'd monitor it for a while. One more broken spoke after all that work, and I'd call it toast. From there it's your choice whether to rebuild with new spokes, or buy.

OTOH if money is no object, buy a new higher quality wheel.
downtube42 is offline  
Old 05-12-21, 07:41 PM
  #12  
adipe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 156
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Liked 11 Times in 10 Posts
0.5mm is a lot. BUT i would not mind having that runout with a disc brake if it's just lateral and the radial runout is low enough (meaning low tension variance).

always make sure you have the least radial runout BEFORE adjusting lateral runout. i always strive for 0.05mm radial runout with +/-5% tension variance or so. this is more important than you'd think.
learn what stress relieving is, what it does to the spokes and also the bedding in of the nipples/eyelets. some stress relieving procedures can also help bend the rim back into shape so that you could achieve both uniform spoke tension AND very low runout.

a spoke tension meter that is accurate enough to beat the plucking method i use... is too expensive for me. it would have the only advantage of helping speed up the process where i read each spoke tension, read radial runout for each spoke (in between and then compute the avg) so that i get the adjustments done after using a spreadsheet.

i never work for anything but my own wheels. i've given up long ago paying for crappy services and just studied the whole thing on my own. low expenses with a spoke key and a cheap but tedious method of measuring radial runout... i use a tone generator to get spoke tension, individually.

anyway, even if i would use only zip ties and my ear while plucking the spokes i'd still get a better job than what i'd get at any LBS around here. but whenever i work on a wheel - usually after getting a second hand bike or wheel(s) - i make sure i never work on it again because unless there's a horrible (almost impossible) accident like being hit sideways by a car then the wheel is strong enough.

you should eventually try using your hand with 2mm spokes drive side and 1.8mm gauge on the non drive side... or even less, 1.65 can also work very well for regular dish wheels. learn to handle torsional stress on the spokes (when tightening the nipples). learn what grease to use and also get the tension limiting thing because of the friction. and by the way, brass nipples are best not only because of that but also because of the longer life for the spokes. aluminum nipples are crap long term. spokes can break because of galvanic corrosion (aluminum does not get galvanically corroded but steel is the "noble" material being corroded) and there's this thing called stress corrosion. meaning there's a chemical factor ALONG with a mechanical factor when it comes to corrosion/breaking the spokes at the nipples.

if the rim is quality then it might make sense to get rid of the fatigued spokes and get proper ones. very important to get butted for the NDS flange. and make sure you have the proper length for the spokes. 1.8mm spokes get ~0.4mm more length under 70kgf tension, ~0.1mm more than 2mm spokes (for a 290mm spoke length). rim gets compressed too, that's why spoke calculators don't agree on those values you get. spoke thread should be felt with your nails/screwdriver outside the nipple as you look at them from where the rim tape would be applied. make damn sure you get good brass nipples, the proper lubricant (don't go with light oil meaning no additives) which you should apply on the threads and also on the nipple heads/eyelets. my choice is a homebrew: a mixture of synthetic GL4 gear oil (meaning the synthetic oil with all the additives in the product), wax as a thickening agent (not candle wax), some hBN product and some chain grease product for a bit of that which is called "soap" (i think it's the lithium type) - which helps the whole thing stay put and not get washed out too much. i think polyurea grease could be better (EP type) but i haven't got any of that yet and anyway, i'd use it as an ingredient in the homebrew too.

if you care to work on the wheel as to bend it back into shape by means of spokes alone or use thin spokes that are more vulnerable to torsional stress then the proper lubricant is very important to get. you will get better vibration damping in the nipple/rim/spoke contact and therefore better fatigue life.

Last edited by adipe; 05-12-21 at 08:25 PM.
adipe is offline  
Old 05-14-21, 12:47 PM
  #13  
davidad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 6,492
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 519 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 125 Times in 105 Posts
I don't know how much you weigh but there are only 28 spokes on that wheel (on a picture of the bike). I would go for at least 120kG on the drive side and see how that holds up.
davidad is offline  
Old 05-15-21, 05:55 AM
  #14  
Pop N Wood
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,063

Bikes: 1982 Bianchi Sport SX, Rayleigh Tamland 1, Rans V-Rex recumbent, Fuji MTB, 80's Cannondale MTB with BBSHD ebike motor

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 492 Post(s)
Liked 394 Times in 256 Posts
Broken spokes are often like gray hairs, pluck one a a dozen will show up to it's funeral.

I've rebuilt multiple cheap wheel sets using these $17 Chinese spokes from Amazon. Some of the wheels are now 7 years old and still going strong, never had a problem.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I realize I've just alienated 85% of the bikeforum members by first not saying "buy better quality", second by suggesting something Chinese and third by providing an Amazon link, evil old Bezos and all that. But there is no reason to throw away a perfectly serviceable wheel that is doing what you need it to.

BTW pdlamb's suggestion to prestress the spokes is an excellent one.
Pop N Wood is offline  
Old 05-21-21, 10:37 PM
  #15  
Ryan_M
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Ryan_M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Courtice, Ont.
Posts: 100

Bikes: 2020 Giant Roam 1... at least it was

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked 10 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by adipe View Post
0.5mm is a lot. BUT i would not mind having that runout with a disc brake if it's just lateral and the radial runout is low enough (meaning low tension variance).

always make sure you have the least radial runout BEFORE adjusting lateral runout. i always strive for 0.05mm radial runout with +/-5% tension variance or so. this is more important than you'd think.
learn what stress relieving is, what it does to the spokes and also the bedding in of the nipples/eyelets. some stress relieving procedures can also help bend the rim back into shape so that you could achieve both uniform spoke tension AND very low runout.

a spoke tension meter that is accurate enough to beat the plucking method i use... is too expensive for me. it would have the only advantage of helping speed up the process where i read each spoke tension, read radial runout for each spoke (in between and then compute the avg) so that i get the adjustments done after using a spreadsheet.

i never work for anything but my own wheels. i've given up long ago paying for crappy services and just studied the whole thing on my own. low expenses with a spoke key and a cheap but tedious method of measuring radial runout... i use a tone generator to get spoke tension, individually.

anyway, even if i would use only zip ties and my ear while plucking the spokes i'd still get a better job than what i'd get at any LBS around here. but whenever i work on a wheel - usually after getting a second hand bike or wheel(s) - i make sure i never work on it again because unless there's a horrible (almost impossible) accident like being hit sideways by a car then the wheel is strong enough.

you should eventually try using your hand with 2mm spokes drive side and 1.8mm gauge on the non drive side... or even less, 1.65 can also work very well for regular dish wheels. learn to handle torsional stress on the spokes (when tightening the nipples). learn what grease to use and also get the tension limiting thing because of the friction. and by the way, brass nipples are best not only because of that but also because of the longer life for the spokes. aluminum nipples are crap long term. spokes can break because of galvanic corrosion (aluminum does not get galvanically corroded but steel is the "noble" material being corroded) and there's this thing called stress corrosion. meaning there's a chemical factor ALONG with a mechanical factor when it comes to corrosion/breaking the spokes at the nipples.

if the rim is quality then it might make sense to get rid of the fatigued spokes and get proper ones. very important to get butted for the NDS flange. and make sure you have the proper length for the spokes. 1.8mm spokes get ~0.4mm more length under 70kgf tension, ~0.1mm more than 2mm spokes (for a 290mm spoke length). rim gets compressed too, that's why spoke calculators don't agree on those values you get. spoke thread should be felt with your nails/screwdriver outside the nipple as you look at them from where the rim tape would be applied. make damn sure you get good brass nipples, the proper lubricant (don't go with light oil meaning no additives) which you should apply on the threads and also on the nipple heads/eyelets. my choice is a homebrew: a mixture of synthetic GL4 gear oil (meaning the synthetic oil with all the additives in the product), wax as a thickening agent (not candle wax), some hBN product and some chain grease product for a bit of that which is called "soap" (i think it's the lithium type) - which helps the whole thing stay put and not get washed out too much. i think polyurea grease could be better (EP type) but i haven't got any of that yet and anyway, i'd use it as an ingredient in the homebrew too.

if you care to work on the wheel as to bend it back into shape by means of spokes alone or use thin spokes that are more vulnerable to torsional stress then the proper lubricant is very important to get. you will get better vibration damping in the nipple/rim/spoke contact and therefore better fatigue life.
Thanks, a ton of great info there!!

I ended up ordering parts to build my own wheels. Sure maybe not the best economical solution but it's something I've wanted to do for a long time and now I'm doing it. I like working on my bike so I don't see any savings buying prebuilt as a win vs. the entertainment time I get out of it, unless it's a major difference but TBH I'm pretty happy with what I got for the price. I'm using DT 350 hubs (liked them because I can convert axle systems, I'm currently QR but I doubt that'll be the case moving forward) and 240 hubs nearly doubled the price. Also going with DT XR 361 rims and Sapim Race spokes, all in I'm out $525 Canadian pesos. I went 32H on both, I know theres an argument out there by somebody way more experienced than I am that you can go with less spokes on the front but the GF lives in escarpment country so I do some heavy breaking at times. I'm sure the hard breaking is putting more stress than any power I can put down pedalling.

You mentioned using pitch to measure tension... how does spoke diameter and tention relate? What frequency are you aiming for?
Ryan_M is offline  
Old 05-22-21, 05:10 AM
  #16  
adipe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 156
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Liked 11 Times in 10 Posts
Originally Posted by Ryan_M View Post
...how does spoke diameter and tention relate? What frequency are you aiming for?
first of all, tone generator:
https://www.szynalski.com/tone-generator/

https://www.school-for-champions.com...m#.XSHKJhYzapo
f = (1/2L)*√(T/μ)
that is the frequency equation

so, spoke tension in kfg = 4*r^2*PI()*L^2*F^2*0.008/9.8
r is radius expressed in mm (1 for 2mm spokes);
L is length of the vibrating spoke expressed also in mm (from the cross to the nipple);
F is the frequency in Hz

if the spoke does not have a constant thickness (because of being butted) from the nipple to the cross then you will have some error but it does not matter that much when comparing tension from one spoke to another.

you might get confused when plucking crossing spokes... pluck A and then pluck B and compare the sound they get. to have less sound from spoke B you will want to have your palm on it when plucking spoke A. i do both those things if i want accuracy.

tension aimed for depends on parameters... it's a very complicated issue and i don't want to get into it right now. one reason would be the spare time available... the other being the dogma very many believe in, that you should not go for higher tension than 120-130kgf, that being the maximum tension on any spoke on the rim. maximum spoke tension aimed for depends on many things, how much care the wheel gets not only by the person building it but also by the rider (stress corrosion being an issue), how much tension variance the wheel has... and spoke rigidity (length, gauge, relation of DS to NDS too). having eliminated torsional stress from the spokes (mainly DS) is also a VERY important aspect to all this.

Last edited by adipe; 05-22-21 at 05:26 AM.
adipe is offline  
Old 05-22-21, 06:23 AM
  #17  
Andrew R Stewart 
Senior Member
 
Andrew R Stewart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 14,926

Bikes: Stewart S&S coupled sport tourer, Stewart Sunday light, Stewart Commuting, Stewart Touring, Co Motion Tandem, Stewart 3-Spd, Stewart Track, Fuji Finest, Raleigh Pro, Trek Cycle Cross, Mongoose tomac ATB, GT Bravado ATB, JCP Folder

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2926 Post(s)
Liked 1,202 Times in 844 Posts
My cousin, John Allen, wrote about using pitch for determining spoke tensions back in the early 1980s. IIRC it was in Bike World, a long gone consumer rag. Most of us use pitch more to determine the relative consistency of spoke tensions, and not the ultimate tension. Plucking all spoke with a finger nail will give one a lot of info for free and in less then a minute. Andy
__________________
AndrewRStewart
Andrew R Stewart is offline  
Old 05-22-21, 06:35 AM
  #18  
adipe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 156
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Liked 11 Times in 10 Posts
Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
My cousin, John Allen, wrote about using pitch for determining spoke tensions back in the early 1980s. IIRC it was in Bike World, a long gone consumer rag. Most of us use pitch more to determine the relative consistency of spoke tensions, and not the ultimate tension. Plucking all spoke with a finger nail will give one a lot of info for free and in less then a minute. Andy
if i were to earn my living with this stuff i'd go by a precision tensiometer that is expensive. not only for the absolute tension accuracy (and the speed of that reading) but also for the speed i would read each spoke tension in order to use a spreadsheet in which all the data gets gathered: spoke length, spoke thickness, tension for each spoke, radial runout at each spoke. the spreadsheet getting me the adjustments to be made in nipple turning for each spoke in degrees (threads are 0.45mm IIRC). that would be for the DS flange, of course, for balancing out radial runout and tension.

so as that is not the case... i go by a time consuming procedure because otherwise, if i were to pay for services i would get sloppy work for too much money also - compared to the results anyway.

https://www.bike24.com/p259252.html

i get quite accurate with the way i read spoke tension. the harder part is to measure radial runout on each spoke.
1. what is the error/accuracy of a tension meter that most mechanics - rarely - use?
2. what is the accuracy that mechanics have while reading radial runout on each spoke?
3. do mechanics EVER adjust runout with spoke tension variance after reading all that data and doing the corrections with some computing being involved?...

question 3. is the most interesting one.
because
4. do clients ever care (understand the importance) for these things? if there was not that much ignorance then MAYBE some wheel builders will start applying the elastic modulus concept to all this, taking spoke thickness, length etc. into account when adjusting tension for EACH spoke according to radial runout. i'm saying elastic modulus "concept" as the strain/stress relation is not linear but a bit curvy shape. if the NDS spoke have negligible tension (easiest for the radial adjustments to be made) and the DS have roughly half the tension they would finally get once you finish the adjustments and thereby tension NDS... you have a slightly less elastic modulus figure. and by the way, relative spoke tension variance effect would be negligible when it comes to the modulus. a rough estimation for the modulus of stainless steel is 190GPa btw.

once you have checked your work often enough with digits and computations then you could trust yourself to go by this method which involves an analog reading dial (for the radial runout) along with the acoustics just for the sake of doing work faster:


if you want best results... you should go by a spreadsheet. most of the time you spend is studying BEFORE you practice all this. the time needed to have a pair of wheels done with the best outcome (spreadsheet involved) is 2 hours maybe once you are experienced. the time needed to learn the principles and techniques can be very much more.

Last edited by adipe; 05-22-21 at 07:31 AM.
adipe is offline  
Old 05-22-21, 09:30 AM
  #19  
Iride01
Hits [ENTER] b4 thinking
 
Iride01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 7,116

Bikes: '20 Tarmac Disc Comp '91 Schwinn Paramount '78 Raleigh Competition GS

Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2776 Post(s)
Liked 1,402 Times in 1,023 Posts
Go to your LBS's and see if any have a wheel person that you can get along with and talk to. Let them have your wheel and check it out, adjust and give you their opinion of why or why not it's a good wheel for you and your type of riding.

Likely it won't cost you very much and it will further your wheel building skills much quicker than anything.
Iride01 is offline  
Likes For Iride01:
Old 05-22-21, 01:18 PM
  #20  
Andrew R Stewart 
Senior Member
 
Andrew R Stewart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 14,926

Bikes: Stewart S&S coupled sport tourer, Stewart Sunday light, Stewart Commuting, Stewart Touring, Co Motion Tandem, Stewart 3-Spd, Stewart Track, Fuji Finest, Raleigh Pro, Trek Cycle Cross, Mongoose tomac ATB, GT Bravado ATB, JCP Folder

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2926 Post(s)
Liked 1,202 Times in 844 Posts
Originally Posted by adipe View Post
if i were to earn my living with this stuff i'd go by a precision tensiometer that is expensive. not only for the absolute tension accuracy (and the speed of that reading) but also for the speed i would read each spoke tension in order to use a spreadsheet in which all the data gets gathered: spoke length, spoke thickness, tension for each spoke, radial runout at each spoke. the spreadsheet getting me the adjustments to be made in nipple turning for each spoke in degrees (threads are 0.45mm IIRC). that would be for the DS flange, of course, for balancing out radial runout and tension.

so as that is not the case... i go by a time consuming procedure because otherwise, if i were to pay for services i would get sloppy work for too much money also - compared to the results anyway.

https://www.bike24.com/p259252.html

i get quite accurate with the way i read spoke tension. the harder part is to measure radial runout on each spoke.
1. what is the error/accuracy of a tension meter that most mechanics - rarely - use?
2. what is the accuracy that mechanics have while reading radial runout on each spoke?
3. do mechanics EVER adjust runout with spoke tension variance after reading all that data and doing the corrections with some computing being involved?...

question 3. is the most interesting one.
because
4. do clients ever care (understand the importance) for these things? if there was not that much ignorance then MAYBE some wheel builders will start applying the elastic modulus concept to all this, taking spoke thickness, length etc. into account when adjusting tension for EACH spoke according to radial runout. i'm saying elastic modulus "concept" as the strain/stress relation is not linear but a bit curvy shape. if the NDS spoke have negligible tension (easiest for the radial adjustments to be made) and the DS have roughly half the tension they would finally get once you finish the adjustments and thereby tension NDS... you have a slightly less elastic modulus figure. and by the way, relative spoke tension variance effect would be negligible when it comes to the modulus. a rough estimation for the modulus of stainless steel is 190GPa btw.

once you have checked your work often enough with digits and computations then you could trust yourself to go by this method which involves an analog reading dial (for the radial runout) along with the acoustics just for the sake of doing work faster:

https://youtu.be/9YizrSCNVRQ

if you want best results... you should go by a spreadsheet. most of the time you spend is studying BEFORE you practice all this. the time needed to have a pair of wheels done with the best outcome (spreadsheet involved) is 2 hours maybe once you are experienced. the time needed to learn the principles and techniques can be very much more.
Let me start my reply by dismissing the paint by numbers approach to wheel building. The above sounds like a wannabe musician thinking they need to study music theory to be able to play well. Not a wrong addition to the goal of sounding good but lacking in the practice and feedback departments.

3- I know on no shop wheel builders (and i've worked with some real accomplished ones over the years) that use a computer after determining the spoke lengths.
2- Who cares about spoke run out when it's the rim that is the issue in reading trueness? Maybe the question is actually about spoke to spoke tension variation in a complete wheel. Here around 10% is a common range.
1- Since built wheels have no certification standard to pass who cares about absolute tension meter accuracy. What does count is it's consistency from spoke to spoke (and this is very dependent on how the tool is applied to each spoke) and over time as the many wheels are built, used and thus real life feedback is gained WRT that meter's read outs.
And 4- Using that music metaphor again. Is the client the producer? the sound engineer, the concert attendance or the person down loading the file to play through their ear buds? The vast majority of wheel building customers I have dealt with (for about 45 years) care about the parts used, the wheel's initial trueness, the long tern stability and the cost. Not much else. Nearly never a tension number and never any kind of print out.

I build frames as a hobby, done it for years. I heed the real pros and their advise. Been taught by a few and what I learned with one on one and hands on in one day was worth more then many dozens of reading hours. I went through the usual increase of tooling (and now have a very nice set up) thinking that the tools will make me a better builder. All that tools do is make the job potentially quicker but not any "better" That's what practicing scales and playing out does, make you better by doing and not reading.

One of those tooling upgrades I went through was getting dial indicators. Now I can see how straight the frame is. That must be the path to becoming a master builder... What I found out is just because you can measure a few thousandths of an inch does not mean they have any value when riding the bike. Just because you can measure every spoke's tension to X decimal points does not mean the wheel is a better riding one. Andy
__________________
AndrewRStewart
Andrew R Stewart is offline  
Old 05-22-21, 01:38 PM
  #21  
CliffordK
Senior Member
 
CliffordK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 25,241
Mentioned: 204 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13616 Post(s)
Liked 1,906 Times in 1,443 Posts
It is up to you. You might continue breaking spokes one at a time, or it could be done.

I'd look closely at the spoke failures. WHERE? At the nipples, or at the J-Bend or straight-pull spokes?

If you are doing group rides, then a broken spoke might be a major inconvenience. Otherwise, you could just bring a spoke wrench and spare spoke or two with you. With 32h or 36h rims, you can also often just true them up with one less spoke, although then it is a major hassle to replace the spoke and fix what you kludged together.
CliffordK is offline  
Old 05-22-21, 05:00 PM
  #22  
cyccommute 
Mad bike riding scientist
 
cyccommute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 24,003

Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, an orange one and a few titanium ones

Mentioned: 121 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4112 Post(s)
Liked 1,602 Times in 980 Posts
Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
Let me start my reply by dismissing the paint by numbers approach to wheel building. The above sounds like a wannabe musician thinking they need to study music theory to be able to play well. Not a wrong addition to the goal of sounding good but lacking in the practice and feedback departments.

3- I know on no shop wheel builders (and i've worked with some real accomplished ones over the years) that use a computer after determining the spoke lengths.
2- Who cares about spoke run out when it's the rim that is the issue in reading trueness? Maybe the question is actually about spoke to spoke tension variation in a complete wheel. Here around 10% is a common range.
1- Since built wheels have no certification standard to pass who cares about absolute tension meter accuracy. What does count is it's consistency from spoke to spoke (and this is very dependent on how the tool is applied to each spoke) and over time as the many wheels are built, used and thus real life feedback is gained WRT that meter's read outs.
And 4- Using that music metaphor again. Is the client the producer? the sound engineer, the concert attendance or the person down loading the file to play through their ear buds? The vast majority of wheel building customers I have dealt with (for about 45 years) care about the parts used, the wheel's initial trueness, the long tern stability and the cost. Not much else. Nearly never a tension number and never any kind of print out.

I build frames as a hobby, done it for years. I heed the real pros and their advise. Been taught by a few and what I learned with one on one and hands on in one day was worth more then many dozens of reading hours. I went through the usual increase of tooling (and now have a very nice set up) thinking that the tools will make me a better builder. All that tools do is make the job potentially quicker but not any "better" That's what practicing scales and playing out does, make you better by doing and not reading.

One of those tooling upgrades I went through was getting dial indicators. Now I can see how straight the frame is. That must be the path to becoming a master builder... What I found out is just because you can measure a few thousandths of an inch does not mean they have any value when riding the bike. Just because you can measure every spoke's tension to X decimal points does not mean the wheel is a better riding one. Andy
Careful. If you get this guy mad enough heíll put you on his ignore list Of course all that it takes to get him mad enough is to disagree with him.

My biggest problem with the stuff he has said above is the 0.05mm radial (??) run out and that radial run out is more important than lateral run out. Just for giggles, 0.05mm is in the range of a human hair. Park Tool says to shoot for 0.5mm or the thickness of about 5 sheets of paper for lateral true. They suggest about 1mm for radial. As they point out, tires arenít made to that kind of exactness.
__________________
Stuart Black
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.
cyccommute is offline  
Old 05-22-21, 05:57 PM
  #23  
adipe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 156
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Liked 11 Times in 10 Posts
Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
2- Who cares about spoke run out when it's the rim that is the issue in reading trueness? Maybe the question is actually about spoke to spoke tension variation in a complete wheel. Here around 10% is a common range.
"spoke run out" - you misunderstood the whole thing. the rim has an average distance from the hub from which at each spoke there is a relative runout. get the point? so if i measure radial runout at each spoke i measure the rim's runout. either on the inside of the rim, in between spoke A and B and then you get the (rA+rB)/2 etc. or on the outside of the rim (where the tire would be present).

radial runout AT each spoke. better?... english is not my native language nor was i born where people learn english other than in school. spokes do not have runouts, rim has runout so that is what i meant, runout of the rim measured at each spoke. and then getting the average etc.

so what you really missed about my 2. question is that there would be an accuracy in reading spoke tension but if the radial runout AT EACH SPOKE is either neglected or the accuracy in reading it is poor... there's no much use for that fancy tension meter you have bought. because you are too stupid to make the best use for it - if you just use average tension. if i had a fancy tension meter that has very good accuracy i would definitely use it to read individual spoke tension for that purpose, to balance them according to radial runout as it's almost impossible to have ZERO radial runout. AGAIN: suppose you have +10kgf tension for a spoke when comparing to another (variance). how much more length would the spoke get?... the ELASTIC MODULUS concept, will you EVER apply it if you would build or repair wheels?... your own wheels at least???

Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
1- Since built wheels have no certification standard to pass who cares about absolute tension meter accuracy.
exactly. most folks do not care about how things work, they just pay for things that primarily look good and have no way to assess. one reason why mechanics wont bother to do anything else they are used to do.

Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
And 4- [....]care about the parts used, the wheel's initial trueness, the long tern stability and the cost. Not much else. Nearly never a tension number and never any kind of print out.
same as above... folks don't have much clue about what makes wheels able to take very large (as in accidental) loads more than once without losing shape and spoke tension. components matter, work building the wheel can matter a lot too. and they have no way to assess the quality of that work. folks communicate to each other giving anecdotal evidence - meaning lots of misinformation and idiotic advertising. to give an example of an advice that almost all folks would scoff and reject: they won't ever check their wheels if the lowest certain spoke's tension stays the same (comparing that value now and then for a given tire pressure for the same rim tape thickness). they would not care to have noted the frequency they'd get (as a reference) when plucking it (by means of a tone generator). if they would do that once in a while (most useful to do after having something of an accident - meaning accidental huge dynamic load) then the work of readjusting NDS spokes would be very easy. but if spokes lose tension repeatedly the load needed to make spokes lose their tension will become less and less and gradually the rim will be plastically deformed and who will accurately bend that rim back into shape?... this plucking of spokes thing inspection can be done very much faster, without inspecting wheel runout, really. a wheel's deviation is very hard to eyeball if it has begun to occur.

Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
[...] What I found out is just because you can measure a few thousandths of an inch does not mean they have any value when riding the bike. Just because you can measure every spoke's tension to X decimal points does not mean the wheel is a better riding one. Andy
[/QUOTE]

a low radial runout and low spoke tension tension variance does not mean the wheel is a better riding one. you might have a crappy hub etc. what those things really mean is this: a more resilient IN TIME, supposing it has high spoke tension which you cannot afford without low spoke tension variance. and you cannot have both low radial runout AND low lateral runout without having low spoke tension variance. so, you adjust spoke tension with regards to the radial runout either to be able to build tension - with all the stress relieving involved - and getting the rim back into shape OR JUST to have a compromise regarding runout and wheel resilience.

i don't really care about wheels that have runout that cannot be detected by eyeballing etc. is it 10% total spoke tension variance or +/-10% you had in mind?...


to further illustrate the point i am trying to make with all the radial runout and each spoke tension measured ...
i worked on a bent wheel that was on a second hand bike i bought that had DT Alpine spokes on a 2x (2 cross) 36h electric hub that had very large flanges. the factory built it really bad and also the factory chose to have same gauge of spokes on both sides, DS and NDS. the wheel was a mess when i bought the bike, HUGE tension variance and also low tension (probably the customer or customers paid for services certainly more than once). to get it back into shape and do away with the flat spot and bit of taco (that became evident once you either loosened the spokes or got them to have same tension) in order to achieve a resilient wheel without getting other spokes i did that thing with radial runout of the rim at each spoke and figured out the spoke tension BY NUMBERS, computing all that, not just by guessing after hearing sounds and seeing small distances. at the last stage of the work the wheel had roughly 190kg on DS. i don't recall how much tension the NDS went to. i was gradually building tension only on the NDS spokes and then stress relieving and again and again. i backed off tension on the NDS alone after all that, after i bent the rim back into shape and ended with roughly a semitone difference in sound for the tighest spoke and the lowest spoke. the wheel at the end had less than 0.1mm radial runout. i did not bother to measure accurately the lateral runout as it served no useful purpose to me. lateral runout was probably less than 0.2mm. so, after backing off (quite a lot of) tension only on the NDS the DS average tension was 150kgf. i applied a waxy chain grease on the threads and at the nipples/eyelets, not really sure what kind, the container does not tell. it seems to have lithium soap and it performed very well. i also pressed on the rim sideways as to momentarily relieve spoke tension each time i added tension.

Last edited by adipe; 05-22-21 at 06:43 PM.
adipe is offline  
Old 05-22-21, 06:32 PM
  #24  
adipe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 156
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Liked 11 Times in 10 Posts
to answer my own question...

suppose you have +10kgf tension for a spoke when comparing to another (variance). how much more length would the spoke get?

that's 0.0312mm more spoke length because of it being stretched from 10kgf more spoke tension. and that is supposing the spoke has 290mm length and 2mm section diameter. if it would be butted then the elongation would be even more.

so the problem is not so much with the accuracy of reading each spoke tension but doing that accurately while taking into account radial runout at each spoke. will you have a comparable accuracy when it comes to radial runout measurement of the rim at each spoke?... that 0.0312mm is roughly a thousandth of an inch (~1.23 thou)

in other words... 1kgf spoke tension error when reading them individually would be the same as having 0.123 thou (~3 microns) error in reading radial runout supposing you would measure it at each spoke and not just the total runout. all that for 2mm section diameter spokes, 290mm.

Last edited by adipe; 05-22-21 at 06:38 PM.
adipe is offline  
Old 05-22-21, 07:43 PM
  #25  
Andrew R Stewart 
Senior Member
 
Andrew R Stewart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 14,926

Bikes: Stewart S&S coupled sport tourer, Stewart Sunday light, Stewart Commuting, Stewart Touring, Co Motion Tandem, Stewart 3-Spd, Stewart Track, Fuji Finest, Raleigh Pro, Trek Cycle Cross, Mongoose tomac ATB, GT Bravado ATB, JCP Folder

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2926 Post(s)
Liked 1,202 Times in 844 Posts
Originally Posted by adipe View Post
"spoke run out" - you misunderstood the whole thing. the rim has an average distance from the hub from which at each spoke there is a relative runout. get the point? so if i measure radial runout at each spoke i measure the rim's runout. either on the inside of the rim, in between spoke A and B and then you get the (rA+rB)/2 etc. or on the outside of the rim (where the tire would be present).

radial runout AT each spoke. better?... english is not my native language nor was i born where people learn english other than in school. spokes do not have runouts, rim has runout so that is what i meant, runout of the rim measured at each spoke. and then getting the average etc.

so what you really missed about my 2. question is that there would be an accuracy in reading spoke tension but if the radial runout AT EACH SPOKE is either neglected or the accuracy in reading it is poor... there's no much use for that fancy tension meter you have bought. because you are too stupid to make the best use for it - if you just use average tension. if i had a fancy tension meter that has very good accuracy i would definitely use it to read individual spoke tension for that purpose, to balance them according to radial runout as it's almost impossible to have ZERO radial runout. AGAIN: suppose you have +10kgf tension for a spoke when comparing to another (variance). how much more length would the spoke get?... the ELASTIC MODULUS concept, will you EVER apply it if you would build or repair wheels?... your own wheels at least???



exactly. most folks do not care about how things work, they just pay for things that primarily look good and have no way to assess. one reason why mechanics wont bother to do anything else they are used to do.



same as above... folks don't have much clue about what makes wheels able to take very large (as in accidental) loads more than once without losing shape and spoke tension. components matter, work building the wheel can matter a lot too. and they have no way to assess the quality of that work. folks communicate to each other giving anecdotal evidence - meaning lots of misinformation and idiotic advertising. to give an example of an advice that almost all folks would scoff and reject: they won't ever check their wheels if the lowest certain spoke's tension stays the same (comparing that value now and then for a given tire pressure for the same rim tape thickness). they would not care to have noted the frequency they'd get (as a reference) when plucking it (by means of a tone generator). if they would do that once in a while (most useful to do after having something of an accident - meaning accidental huge dynamic load) then the work of readjusting NDS spokes would be very easy. but if spokes lose tension repeatedly the load needed to make spokes lose their tension will become less and less and gradually the rim will be plastically deformed and who will accurately bend that rim back into shape?... this plucking of spokes thing inspection can be done very much faster, without inspecting wheel runout, really. a wheel's deviation is very hard to eyeball if it has begun to occur.

a low radial runout and low spoke tension tension variance does not mean the wheel is a better riding one. you might have a crappy hub etc. what those things really mean is this: a more resilient IN TIME, supposing it has high spoke tension which you cannot afford without low spoke tension variance. and you cannot have both low radial runout AND low lateral runout without having low spoke tension variance. so, you adjust spoke tension with regards to the radial runout either to be able to build tension - with all the stress relieving involved - and getting the rim back into shape OR JUST to have a compromise regarding runout and wheel resilience.

i don't really care about wheels that have runout that cannot be detected by eyeballing etc. is it 10% total spoke tension variance or +/-10% you had in mind?...


to further illustrate the point i am trying to make with all the radial runout and each spoke tension measured ...
i worked on a bent wheel that was on a second hand bike i bought that had DT Alpine spokes on a 2x (2 cross) 36h electric hub that had very large flanges. the factory built it really bad and also the factory chose to have same gauge of spokes on both sides, DS and NDS. the wheel was a mess when i bought the bike, HUGE tension variance and also low tension (probably the customer or customers paid for services certainly more than once). to get it back into shape and do away with the flat spot and bit of taco (that became evident once you either loosened the spokes or got them to have same tension) in order to achieve a resilient wheel without getting other spokes i did that thing with radial runout of the rim at each spoke and figured out the spoke tension BY NUMBERS, computing all that, not just by guessing after hearing sounds and seeing small distances. at the last stage of the work the wheel had roughly 190kg on DS. i don't recall how much tension the NDS went to. i was gradually building tension only on the NDS spokes and then stress relieving and again and again. i backed off tension on the NDS alone after all that, after i bent the rim back into shape and ended with roughly a semitone difference in sound for the tighest spoke and the lowest spoke. the wheel at the end had less than 0.1mm radial runout. i did not bother to measure accurately the lateral runout as it served no useful purpose to me. lateral runout was probably less than 0.2mm. so, after backing off (quite a lot of) tension only on the NDS the DS average tension was 150kgf. i applied a waxy chain grease on the threads and at the nipples/eyelets, not really sure what kind, the container does not tell. it seems to have lithium soap and it performed very well. i also pressed on the rim sideways as to momentarily relieve spoke tension each time i added tension.[/QUOTE]


I guess I need to give you some slack for not being fluent in English. But I can only reply to what I read. Please give some slack back and stop any personal insults. I am not stupid.

f the only way for you to understand a wheel's behavior is by doing the method you are trying to describe then that's fine, for you. But there are many builders with vast experience (some of the wheels built by coworkers have gone to the Tour de France, others have been standard equipment on industry changing bike brands) who do what you attempt with their experience and feel. Wheel building in not rocket science but if you wish to emulate that level of effort I'm happy for you.

The parts that wheels are made of are not perfect. Rims are not really round or flat as delivered and certainly not after some use. Hubs suffer from tolerances too as well as in use damage like bent flanges or flange holes offsets being off clock. Rim nipple bed holes have varying countersinks and reinforcing eyes are compressed during manufacturing at different amounts. All these and other aspects are averaged out during the build. The result being a wheel with high enough spoke tensions to remain stable over time, be round enough so that the tire's run outs is the bigger issue, be laterally straight enough to clear pads if rim braked. getting to this result can involve fancy tools or a sensitive and experienced hand.

As far as who bends a wheel (i think you mean rim) back into shape to retain spoke tension levels- Many shop mechanics have done and will do this routinely. I've attached an image of how badly a rim can bend and still be able to be straight enough after "extensive" working to continue the bike tour.

At some point the discussion needs to have limits and introducing axle, bearing issues is a poor debating technique. Shifting the focus away from the elements we have been dealing with is not how you convince people who can recognize this.

The second to last paragraph you write is not clear to me.

Again if your need to be tooled up and dependent on tension meters that can discern tiny spoke tension differences and you can create solid, round, flat wheels then great. Just know that there are many builders and shop mechanics that don't need them and can do a fine job every day. Perhaps in time you will also be comfortable in the feel and your experience to not need fancy tooling. Andy (Who doesn't think any of this will matter to the OP)
Attached Files
File Type: pdf
Bent Ft Wheel on Tour.pdf (181.3 KB, 3 views)
__________________
AndrewRStewart
Andrew R Stewart is offline  
Likes For Andrew R Stewart:

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.