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A New Lubricant

Old 06-12-21, 11:28 AM
  #51  
Shimagnolo
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I want a new lube, one that won't go away 🎵

One that won't splatter my bike 🎵

One that won't squeak all day 🎵

One that won't make me nervous 🎵

Wonderin' what to do 🎵

One that makes me feel like I feel when I'm with you 🎵

I'm alone with you, baby 🎵

I'm alone with you, baby 🎵
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Old 06-12-21, 11:33 AM
  #52  
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.
....someone here could do posterity a great service by collecting all the chain lube threads into one giant sticky, similar to the endlessly entertaining Helment Thread in the A+S. Not me, of course, but someone.
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Old 06-12-21, 11:34 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by Shimagnolo View Post
I want a new lube, one that won't go away 🎵

One that won't splatter my bike 🎵

One that won't squeak all day 🎵

One that won't make me nervous 🎵

Wonderin' what to do 🎵

One that makes me feel like I feel when I'm with you 🎵

I'm alone with you, baby 🎵

I'm alone with you, baby 🎵
Thanks Huey
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Old 06-12-21, 01:52 PM
  #54  
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At my day job, I work with a lot of engineers. The trouble is, a lot of the information and advice that floats around is qualitative, and can't be quantified in our lifetimes at an acceptable cost. We're faced with, either committing to a qualitative study, which might never come to fruition, and might take a couple tries before actually getting actionable data. Or, letting the engineers follow their gut instincts and qualitative recommendations. In some industries (automotive, aerospace, electronics), you have either high enough production volume, or enough money to burn, that you can engage in a careful quantitative study of every engineering decision. Bikes are not one of those industries. For that reason, we're stuck making our best guesses. Also, because most R&D on lubricants is done under much higher power applications, many of the rules of thumb are probably inapplicable to our needs.

Once again I'm not a chemist (a mere industrial physicist), but the jet black stuff is probably metal dust. For instance that's what you get when you polish metal with very fine grit, such as when sharpening a knife on a hone.
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Old 06-12-21, 03:03 PM
  #55  
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When will this dead horse be buried
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Old 06-12-21, 07:25 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by davidad View Post
When will this dead horse be buried
That's the opposite. Dead horses make glue, not lube.
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Old 06-12-21, 08:17 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by davidad View Post
When will this dead horse be buried
Probably when people see it for what it is. It is just a chain, and apart from those who need a bike for their livelihood, itís just a bike.

I imagine the vast majority of people who ride, really donít care about chain lube. And when they do oil their chain, once in a blue moon, it is probably with whatever is handy.

Itís that very tiny percentage that wonít give up the ghost.

John
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Old 06-12-21, 08:51 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Gresp15C View Post
In this day and age, it's unusual to see any widespread consumer product designed for bike chains, but thinking about it, the 1890s were just about the right time for bike chain lube to become an important household item.
As the great bike boom of the 1890s cooled off, 3inOne reinvented itself as 'Multi-Purpose Oil': just look at all the ways you can use it!




It's still sold today as multi-purpose oil. And while I'm fully aware that doing so puts me in the group of kids who get more cavities, I use it on my bike chains.
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Old 06-12-21, 10:18 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
That's the opposite. Dead horses make glue, not lube.
You win!
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Old 06-13-21, 03:00 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by 70sSanO View Post
... apart from those who need a bike for their livelihood, itís just a bike.
...

I imagine the vast majority of people who ride, really donít care about chain lube.
...

Itís that very tiny percentage that wonít give up the ghost.
John
yea, the vast majority of people don't care because they are proud of their ignorance, they have a discomfort if ever admitting they have been screwed more than once. it's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.

you suppose (imagine) the world is rid of poverty and the vast majority of people don't care about costs that add up because the vast majority of people own their houses and they don't care about chain lube precisely because of that. right?...

imagine all the ignorant people living for today and never caring about the day after tomorrow... why care about chains if you are unable to see more than one chain on your bike because you are living for today?
free market economy? can't have that. you have to choose between capitalism and communism. other option is not allowed.

all lubes have the same additives, right? gear oils from 2021 are the same as gear oils from 1970, right? greases too...
polymer additives to improve film thickness as to prevent wear for example... they are present in all lubes, right?

particulate matter that is small enough to enter the film thickness is what causes most damage to the chain surface. there's also mixed lubrication instead of hydrodymanic lubrication. so you need as thick film thickness as possible. ever care to measure the lubricant film thickness inside the chain? you could do that but it's too hard for you to "imagine" a way to do it. we are talking about microns. polymer additives that strongly adhere (adsorb) to the metal surface. additives that increase viscosity when subjected to pressure. and lastly... the base oil's viscosity. the thicker it is the more time the inside of the chain stays cleaner. that's not the only reason to have some type of wax used.

particulate matter is a problem in your house too. dust settles just because you keep your windows open. how thick do you imagine the lubricant film is inside the chain? could it be that some lube is thinner than another and therefore does NOT prevent wear? ok, don't imagine that, we are only to imagine a world where some should give up the ghost.

so then i'm a minority, should succumb to the (relative) wealthy majority and give up the ghost.
ppl who own bikes and get onto this forum are all born into wealth, right?
one aspect of planned obsolescence is the effort of big players to keep people in ignorance as to how they are screwed. but they don't need to put that much effort if the ignorant masses are programmed to despise each other and pretend that a chain is too cheap - although there might be more than a dozen of chains used - to care about.

why learn anything? cost of chains and lubes don't really matter. cost of learning stuff is too much.

wax (and any other base oil - although some are more resistant than others) can oxidise faster once is subjected to pressure AND chemicals. that's one reason to mix it with other stuff.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01173332
With a 30-minute initiation by air containing 0.35% of N02, the induction period is ten hours, as compared to 366 hours in absence of initiator.
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Old 06-13-21, 03:03 AM
  #61  
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some players in automotive lubricant offer much better products than most of the chain lubes or at least for a much lower cost to the customer (price). all you need is to mix 1-2 products and add some wax. you just need to find out what product is most suited for the application. the most expensive products will still be much cheaper than chain lube bike label crap and will last you a lifetime. and if you own a car... the cost (for bike use) is negligible.

bike label lubes are overpriced crap. i've yet to find an exception to this rule.

i won't advertise.

Last edited by adipe; 06-13-21 at 03:09 AM.
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Old 06-13-21, 07:25 AM
  #62  
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One of the advantages of a liquid lube is it can be applied more frequently, if desired, so there's no need to try to get extreme mileage from a single application. Chain removal is not necessary to relube. With hot dipping, most of the lube goes onto surfaces that don't require it and that all flakes off. I only apply a drop or two to each roller. My drivetrains are cleaner than ever using a paraffin wax based liquid lube.
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Old 06-13-21, 08:14 AM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by tcs View Post


It's still sold today as multi-purpose oil. And while I'm fully aware that doing so puts me in the group of kids who get more cavities, I use it on my bike chains.
I use 3-in-1 on my wife's bike chain and save the Miraculous Boutique Lube for my bike. She'll never know the difference! And likely, neither will I.

I agree that it doesn't matter much what you lube with as much as that you lube your chain. I do indeed use an expensive mystery oil on my chain, I wipe it down after every ride, and I got 4K miles from my last chain. But I'm not kidding myself; it's hobby-style entertainment rather than science or engineering. As Stuart Black says, no matter what your ritual or lack thereof, you'll probably get about 3.5K out of a chain. For many years, I was happy to just replace the chain every year. No boiling, no alchemy, no storage of hazardous chemicals, no arguments!
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Old 06-13-21, 10:44 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by adipe View Post
yea, the vast majority of people don't care because they are proud of their ignorance, they have a discomfort if ever admitting they have been screwed more than once. it's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.

you suppose (imagine) the world is rid of poverty and the vast majority of people don't care about costs that add up because the vast majority of people own their houses and they don't care about chain lube precisely because of that. right?...

imagine all the ignorant people living for today and never caring about the day after tomorrow... why care about chains if you are unable to see more than one chain on your bike because you are living for today?
free market economy? can't have that. you have to choose between capitalism and communism. other option is not allowed.
I know this will fall on (mostly) deaf ears but perhaps you should look closer to home when discussing ďignoranceĒ. Many of us arenít ďfooledĒ and are actually have brains sitting atop our shoulders.

Iíve worked in chemical research and development for 4 decades. I know a thing or two about chemicals, chemistry, processes, and the cost of development. You think that it is easier and cheaper to develop your own homebrew but what are you basing your development on? How many different parameters have to tested? How many chains have to tested to see if a specific formulation works better than anotherÖwhether it is your own brew or a commercial product? Each parameter change is going to require a significant investment of time, money, and materials. If you are poor, you donít really have the resources to do that kind of investment. Most people donít have the time.

But, yet again, a chain is a consumable. It doesnít matter if you are rich or poor. It doesnít matter which lubricant you use from something expensive like the Wolftooth lubricant (remember what the post was about) or you use used motor oil. The chain will wear and need replaced. You havenít invented a better mouse trap, especially considering that you have yet to tell us anything about how well (or poorly) your ďsystemĒ works.

all lubes have the same additives, right? gear oils from 2021 are the same as gear oils from 1970, right? greases too...
polymer additives to improve film thickness as to prevent wear for example... they are present in all lubes, right?
Thatís a very broad statement. If you are talking about all lubricants, then no, all lubes donít have the same additives. If you are talking about classes of lubricantsÖlike chain lube, transmission fluid, engine oil, chainsaw lubricant, etcÖthey may have similar additives but they arenít chemically identical. Different companies will use different materials for various reasons.

As to whether lubricants from 50 years ago are the same as lubricants the same as today, definitely not! Bearing grease, for example, is entirely different from 50 years ago. We used oils trapped in sterates in the 70s. The oil drained away fairly quickly which is why old grease solidified over time. It simply lost the oil. Modern grease is based on polymers that behave much differently. Even fluid lubricants of today arenít the same as they were even 30 years ago. Chemists have spent a lot of time improving the formulations for better lubricity and longevity. Refiners are making purer materials that perform better and longer. Motor oil, for example, started breaking down in engines very quickly and needed changing after 3000 miles. Modern oil lasts much longer.

particulate matter that is small enough to enter the film thickness is what causes most damage to the chain surface. there's also mixed lubrication instead of hydrodymanic lubrication. so you need as thick film thickness as possible. ever care to measure the lubricant film thickness inside the chain? you could do that but it's too hard for you to "imagine" a way to do it. we are talking about microns. polymer additives that strongly adhere (adsorb) to the metal surface. additives that increase viscosity when subjected to pressure. and lastly... the base oil's viscosity. the thicker it is the more time the inside of the chain stays cleaner. that's not the only reason to have some type of wax used.
If you are talking oil based lubricants, yes. If you are talking wax based (more solid) lubricants, no. But because wax based lubricant donít flow, there more metal to metal contact. Wear is about the same independent of whether it is due to particulates or metal on metal wear. It. Doesnít. Matter! There is no magic mixture that will give good flow and prevent particulate infiltrations just as there is no solid mixture that will flow under ambient conditions.

particulate matter is a problem in your house too. dust settles just because you keep your windows open. how thick do you imagine the lubricant film is inside the chain? could it be that some lube is thinner than another and therefore does NOT prevent wear? ok, don't imagine that, we are only to imagine a world where some should give up the ghost.
I have no idea what you are trying to say here. You can worry about our bicycle souls. The rest of us are just going to ride and enjoy.

so then i'm a minority, should succumb to the (relative) wealthy majority and give up the ghost.
ppl who own bikes and get onto this forum are all born into wealth, right?
one aspect of planned obsolescence is the effort of big players to keep people in ignorance as to how they are screwed. but they don't need to put that much effort if the ignorant masses are programmed to despise each other and pretend that a chain is too cheap - although there might be more than a dozen of chains used - to care about.
Again, you seem to be not ignoring me. Iím not saying that you should succumb to the majority. Do what you want. Just quit telling the rest of us we are doing it wrong if we donít do it your (very confusing and not evidenced based) way. You seem to be smart but misguided. You use information youíve gather incorrectly.

why learn anything? cost of chains and lubes don't really matter. cost of learning stuff is too much.
Please donít insult usÖor me. I have fought the fight to not use oil based lubricants for a long time. I have learned a lot along the way. Most of what Iíve learned is that the lubricant doesnít matter. I use solvent based wax lube because it is convenient, as effective as oil, and a whole lot cleaner. If you (or anyone) has an elaborate cleaning regime to deal with the mess that chains can be, you are doing something wrong. Itís a simple mechanism that is relatively cheap and requires far less discussion than even this thread has engendered.

wax (and any other base oil - although some are more resistant than others) can oxidise faster once is subjected to pressure AND chemicals. that's one reason to mix it with other stuff.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01173332
With a 30-minute initiation by air containing 0.35% of N02, the induction period is ten hours, as compared to 366 hours in absence of initiator.
You are again misinterpreting information. Yes, paraffin can be oxidized but the conditions are far beyond what you are going to encounter at ambient conditions. 0.35% nitrogen dioxide is 3500ppm. Nitrogen dioxide is lethally toxic at 500ppm. Thatís 7 times the lethal amount. If you are riding in places where the NOx is 3500ppm, you are going to be dead before the wax on your chain starts to oxidize. Iíd suspect you would be dead before you swung your leg over the bicycle.

Even 50 to 100 ppm (70 to 35 times less than 0.35% nitrogen dioxide) is hazardous to the health. Nitrogen dioxide simply isnít a factor in oxidation of any lubricant on a bicycle.
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Old 06-13-21, 10:45 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by adipe View Post
some players in automotive lubricant offer much better products than most of the chain lubes or at least for a much lower cost to the customer (price). all you need is to mix 1-2 products and add some wax. you just need to find out what product is most suited for the application. the most expensive products will still be much cheaper than chain lube bike label crap and will last you a lifetime. and if you own a car... the cost (for bike use) is negligible.

bike label lubes are overpriced crap. i've yet to find an exception to this rule.

i won't advertise.
What is your definition of “crap”? You just seem to have a huge chip on your shoulder towards “Big Chain Lube”…which really ain’t all that big. “Big Automotive Lube” is 100s of times bigger.
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Old 06-13-21, 10:49 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by adipe View Post
you have to choose between capitalism and communism. other option is not allowed.
Neither of these in their pure form exist anywhere in the world today.

The pandemic illustrated the complete globalization of the bicycle industry by communist China and the complete inability of so-called capitalist economies to take any steps to prevent it. But the capitalistic United States chose to extend unemployment benefits and send stimulus checks as we wait for bikes and components to become available again.

But there is one constant, from the beginning of mankind until the very last breath, money and power will rule. Those with the gold truly do make the rules. I'm sure there have been many who may oppose this, but they are buried in obscurity throughout the world.

John

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Old 06-14-21, 12:27 PM
  #67  
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Probably a better marketing message than ďWorks at least as well as the hundred other chain lubes on the market for twice the price!Ē
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Old 06-14-21, 02:04 PM
  #68  
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It’s a rabbit hole, but if anyone’s serious, you should check out Josh’s videos from Silca on YouTube.
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Old 06-14-21, 02:11 PM
  #69  
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Finish Line makes a cleaner/lube. I was skeptical but I got a can for my daughter who tends to neglect things if they take more than one step. So far it seems to be working fine and itís so easy she actually uses it. 17 oz aerosol for $15 on Amazon.
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Old 06-14-21, 04:37 PM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by MAK View Post
I thought I'd go to the experts on this.

Wolf Tooth is advertising a lube called WT-1 Chain Lube. They say that it cleans, lubes, protects and lasts 3-5 times longer than other lubricants and is for all conditions. I'm not sure how one product can work optimally in both wet and dry conditions.

Has anyone tried this yet? Before I consider spending $18.95 for a 2 oz. bottle, I'd like some user thoughts and comments.

Thank you.
Wolf Tooth - WT-1 - I'll check it out - I'm curious.

Currently I use Boeshield T-9. I find it to be splendid and would recommend it to one and all.
Ride on!
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Old 06-14-21, 09:21 PM
  #71  
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MODS...Please kill this thread. I was asking whether the claims were credible and if anyone had used it.

I did not intend the 'what's the best lube' or 'what lube do you use' that it's become.

Sorry for taking up bandwidth.
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Old 06-14-21, 10:05 PM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by MAK View Post
MODS...Please kill this thread. I was asking whether the claims were credible and if anyone had used it.

I did not intend the 'what's the best lube' or 'what lube do you use' that it's become.

Sorry for taking up bandwidth.
....I hope you've learned a valuable lesson, sir.
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Old 06-14-21, 11:40 PM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by Bamicus View Post
Itís a rabbit hole, but if anyoneís serious, you should check out Joshís videos from Silca on YouTube.
Rabbit holes can be fun :-)
Bring data driven, I love reading Zerofrictioncycling.com.au
It's very clear (to me) there are significant differences in chain lubes with respect to :
1) watts saved
2) chain wear/longevity
and, maybe most importantly,
3) (expensive) drive train wear/longevity

I alternate 2 chains, never wash them, rewax them every 150+ miles in a slow cooker, and expect to use each for many many thousands of miles.

If you believe in good studies, believable data and avoiding common and harmful industry myths (factory grease is good, etc. ..), give Adam a read.

Spoiler Alert-nothing tests better, lasts longer or protects better than Silca's products.
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Old 06-15-21, 06:59 AM
  #74  
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True about Silca products. I have a pista track pump that’s 36 years old! I’ve seen some of zero friction stuff, very interesting. You may also want to check out rolling resistance stuff that Josh recommends. You can really save serious watts with the right tires, tubes, etc. And of course chain issues. I would say, if you have prepared chains for the hour record, you know what your talking about! Engineers are usually smart people!

Also interesting that some so called lubes, actually deteriorate chains, and add watts.
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Old 06-16-21, 01:04 PM
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Bamicus
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Just curious? Why don’t you clean your chains?
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