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Fitting a Sturmy Archer 5 speed into an old hub?

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Fitting a Sturmy Archer 5 speed into an old hub?

Old 07-01-21, 04:47 PM
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Fitting a Sturmy Archer 5 speed into an old hub?

I have a 1990 Gazelle bicycle with a Sturmy Archer 3 speed.
The 3rd gear is not working any-more, and since I do not like the wide spacing on a 3 speed hub.
I was wondering if I can install the internals from a newer 5 speed hub into the old wheel. Of course I also need to replace the shifter.
The bicycle has drum brakes so I guess my 3 speed is an AB model.
Does anyone know if this is possible? And what model do I need?
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Old 07-01-21, 05:03 PM
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I donít really know how feasible this upgrade would be, but I suspect youíll end up spending more money than if you just buy a complete new 5 speed hub. Thatís usually how it goes with this sort of thing.
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Old 07-02-21, 03:45 AM
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I would say it all depends how much effort you would like to invest in the project, especially in time, plus there is the risk that if you buy a used hub in a wheel rather than a bike there might be a problem with that hub that you might not discover until later.

My preferred option is to buy a used bike where I can prove to myself that at least it all works and has all the ancillary bits like levers and cable mounts.

Spokes can also be an issue as different types of wheel require different length spokes and even nipples. Then the diameter of the hub and the distance on the hub between where the left and right spokes mount may also differ.

If you can afford the time it can be very fun and rewarding, but modifying a bike usually proves to generate some frustration at some point.
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Old 07-02-21, 11:13 AM
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The faulty 3rd gear of your hub should be easy to repair.

Anyway, you've got an SAB and you'd like to replace just the the internal mechanism with an X-RB5?

Okay, the most modern version (whether or not the swap would be possible), the X-RF5(W) doesn't have any closer ratios than your SAB.

Note: after a couple of years Sturmey-Archer confusingly dropped the "(W)".

The 5-speeds contemporary with your SAB (1990), the 5StAr and Sprinter, were poor designs. The follow-on design X-RD5 ~no "(W)"~ hub is okay, if you can find a NOS one from the late 1990s through 2008. They were built in two versions, ball locking (the one in the diagram below) and bar locking, with no external differentiation.

Would one of these fit into your SAB hubshell? It might; I don't know of anyone who's tried it. The hub shells have different part numbers but then they would since one is steel and the other aluminum alloy. You could acquire one, try it, and if it didn't work, put it back together and have in built complete and intact into your old rear wheel






The very latest Sturmey-Archer five-speed, the RX-RD5, is a completely different and much larger hub.

Another option would be to have a new X-RD4 hub newly spoked into your old rim (if it's in sound condition). This hub is relatively light, comes in narrow widths (what is the OLD on your 1990 Gazelle?), has closer gearing but a greater range than the SAB. Note: Using an X-RD4 might result in having to fit a different chainwheel (your Gazelle have a chain case?).

Last edited by tcs; 07-02-21 at 11:18 AM.
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Old 07-04-21, 09:50 AM
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I was thinking about finding al old Sturmy archer 5 speed bike and do the conversion myself. Could be a fun experience. But if the spacing on the 5 speed is almost the same as a 3 speed, then it's not that useful for me. As is live in a rather flat country I know there was a old small and medium width hub from Sturmy archer that should probably fit. But those are rather hard to find, and expensive. I do want to keep the Gazelle, as I inherited it from my uncle. So I am going to fix it with another 3 speed hub at some point.
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Old 07-10-21, 02:55 PM
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Check the OLD on your current hub/frame. If it is 120mm, then the modern 5 speed hubs will be too wide. I think all of them are at least 126mm and possibly 132.5. You can look that up on the Sturmey Archer site. If you decide to change the hub, you'll need to spread the frame, but that might cause trouble with a full chaincase.

I don't think any 5 speed guts are going to fit in any 3 speed shell, but who knows.

Matt
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Old 07-10-21, 03:07 PM
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It'd probably be easier to spread the drops to whatever is needed for a five speed IGH. It is a steel bike isn't it? Might throw your chain line off a tad. But if you have issues because of that, you can just get a offset BB spindle that's longer on the drive side.

Of course you'll need a five speed shifter too.
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Old 07-10-21, 03:33 PM
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Even if the internals did fit, the SA 5-speed hub design has been prone to reliability problems, and I would personally not recommend using one.
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Old 07-12-21, 01:53 AM
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So, it's probably not going to fit inside the old hub. Then I will go find a 5 speed Sachs donor bike. Those are pretty good, and the spacing is a lot better then a 3 speed. I see no problems in spreading the frame a bit. And I do have a lathe, so if needed I can turndown some nuts and washers. And talking a bout 3 speed; I actually managed to fix the old S.A. with a can of WD40. So now I have a working 3th gear and it's just as useless as I expected. I actually made a video about my WD40 experiment:
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Old 07-12-21, 02:08 AM
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Originally Posted by uberprutser
Then I will go find a 5 speed Sachs donor bike.
Much better idea.
Nice that you got the 3-speed going again too. Unlike Sturmey-Archer's 5-speed, those are reliable hubs.
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Old 07-13-21, 03:28 AM
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S5 into AW

Hi, new member here, first post,

The guts of the SA 5speeds, S5, S5.1 S5.2 fit into most AWs.

I have fitted an late 80's S5.2, with the 2 indicator chains/rods, without consequence, into a 1972 DL1. The axles were within a few mm's of each other. The S5.2 was from an alloy shell.


Main issues, at least with my installation:

The supplied twin cable shifter sucked and promptly broke (the black one in the pics). I am searching whether the brown/grey one, from a 5Star bub will work.

Afterwards, I ran the stock AW shifter on the right side, and a friction thumb shifter on the left and this combo worked really well, but still a bit quirky.

SA releeased a modification for the S5.2 that replaced the pinion return and the low gear springs (in differential, generally considered very bad design practice) with a single spring and that cured it once and for all.

I also changed the rear sprocket to 22/24T? and that gave me enough uphill range.

Recommended.


The S5.1 was/is problematic and is not typically used unless modified.


The original S5, mid-60's, works really well. It has a bell-crank/pushrod on the left, and uses the 2 shifter combo above.

The NOS SA bell cranks are a bit rare, and crazy sellers ask unrealistic prices.

A Shimano bell crank is typically used instead and they are only a few bucks. The threads are the same pitch and the bellcrank is opened up a bit using an old SA axle as a tap (only 0.020" diff in diameters)

A cut down nail is used as a pushrod.


I am currently running an AG and will soon transplant the S5.2 into that. Will try adding some pics later

nick

edit: while I have a Sachs S7 on my other bike, w/ no problems, I think the S5 mod is more appropriate for a classic like a Gazelle (IMHO)

Last edited by olNick; 07-13-21 at 03:41 AM.
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Old 07-13-21, 07:30 PM
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Weird idea, put forward by someone who's never owned or even worked on a S/A hub...

Claw-mount short cage rear derailleur as a chain tensioner, clamp-on front, friction front shifter, double crank with rings 16.5% apart... 6-speed half-step with evenly spaced gears. Pick chainrings according to taste and terrain.

--Shannon
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Old 07-19-21, 12:50 AM
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Great first post Nick, it certainly made my day
I'm patiently waiting for the pictures to show up.
And now I hope to find a cheap donor bicycle, to some tinkering
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Old 11-29-23, 04:19 AM
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I think I was wrong on the AW S5/2 fitment

Hi,
As I started to look more regarding S5/2 into AG, as I stated above, I believe it wont work. My ASSumption was based on that the guts of the AW can replace the guts of an AG.... Don't know where I got that idea, probably from references that said the AG is an AW with a Dynohub...

More research is needed as I don't want to dismantle the AG to test....
AFAIU, the 5/2 might fit into an FG, but that's kind of mute as the FG is easily converted to 5sp with a push rod on the left side...

Where to get an FG...

regards,
Nick
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Old 11-29-23, 06:39 AM
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Dumb question: why not just swap in a different cog to shift the range up? Same range but a more usable low, and a bit faster high? Cheap and easy.
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Old 11-29-23, 06:58 AM
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Tx for the reply,

The 5spd has the intermediate ratios.

Nick
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Old 12-05-23, 03:02 PM
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The old, original S-A S5 series will fit into the hub shell of an AW. Some of these are reliable, others not. The overall ratio is wider than with an AW. It is important to use the right shifters. Information is on sheldonbrown.com.
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Old 12-06-23, 05:02 AM
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Originally Posted by jsallen
The old, original S-A S5 series will fit into the hub shell of an AW. Some of these are reliable, others not. The overall ratio is wider than with an AW. It is important to use the right shifters. Information is on sheldonbrown.com.
I know this, and already said this in my earlier post. I have swapped the S5/2 into the AW hub original to the bike and it worked well (besides plastic shifter issues).

The current question is whether the S-5/2 fits into an AG, which has currently replaced the S-5/2-AW combo?

thanx for the reply,
Nick
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