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Ultegra 6700 Groupset with Tiagra 4700 GS RD and Cassette?

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Ultegra 6700 Groupset with Tiagra 4700 GS RD and Cassette?

Old 09-19-21, 10:03 PM
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ganner
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Ultegra 6700 Groupset with Tiagra 4700 GS RD and Cassette?

As per title, I'm trying to install a Tiagra 4700 GS RD and 11-34T cassette on Ultegra 6700 (10 years old). Would it work? Someone told me that the indexing might not be perfect?

Anyone tried doing this?
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Old 09-19-21, 11:16 PM
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Will not work. 4700 has its own index ratio, which is unofficially known to basically be 11 speed.
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Old 09-20-21, 01:04 AM
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You can use a Shimano 9-speed MTB GS rear derailleur. This is very common with the touring guys. Works perfectly with your 6700 components.
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Old 09-20-21, 01:40 AM
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Originally Posted by cpach View Post
Will not work. 4700 has its own index ratio, which is unofficially known to basically be 11 speed.
Would you happen to know what are my options in terms of going to 34T cassette?

Originally Posted by Davet View Post
You can use a Shimano 9-speed MTB GS rear derailleur. This is very common with the touring guys. Works perfectly with your 6700 components.
Would this work with the 10 speed cassette and 10 speed shifter?
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Old 09-20-21, 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted by ganner View Post
Would you happen to know what are my options in terms of going to 34T cassette?



Would this work with the 10 speed cassette and 10 speed shifter?
Yes! As I said, it will work perfectly with your 10 speed components. My wife has been running this combination on her bike for many years.
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Old 09-20-21, 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted by cpach View Post
Will not work. 4700 has its own index ratio, which is unofficially known to basically be 11 speed.
Tiagra 4700 does use the 11-speed actuation ration for its RD. I'm using an R7000 RD with Tiagra 4700 shifters on one of my bikes. No issues with indexing whatsoever.

Last edited by Hondo6; 09-20-21 at 06:31 AM. Reason: Changed wording for clarity and correct typo.
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Old 09-20-21, 05:17 PM
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9 speed mtb RD range from older XT/XTR, which are probably used or obscenely priced for NOS. Or you can go with a new Deore 591.

I only mention the older XT/XTR because you are running Ultegra and they are probably a comparable level.

John
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Old 09-20-21, 07:08 PM
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r7000 is 11 speed my friend. of course it will work with a 4700.

question is if a 4700 rd will work with a 10 speed shifter.
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Old 09-20-21, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ganner View Post
r7000 is 11 speed my friend. of course it will work with a 4700.

question is if a 4700 rd will work with a 10 speed shifter.
No. Different pull ratios. Here is a list of most of the Shimano derailleurs with "Pull Ratios" listed. Many 10 speed are 1.7 ratio while 11 speed is usually 1.4 and you need the corresponding shifters to work properly.
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Old 09-21-21, 04:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Crankycrank View Post
No. Different pull ratios. Here is a list of most of the Shimano derailleurs with "Pull Ratios" listed. Many 10 speed are 1.7 ratio while 11 speed is usually 1.4 and you need the corresponding shifters to work properly.
The Tiagra 4700 is one of those 10-speed RDs that use Shimano's 1.4 new road actuation ration. I believe there are one or two other Shimano 10-speed RDs that might also - one from the GRX series comes to mind as I recall - but I can't say that with certainty from personal experience since I haven't researched those in detail or used one. And my memory here might be reversed; I might be thinking about one of the newer GRX RDs being used with Tiagra 4700 shifters.

This wasn't true of the previous Tiagra groupsets, including the 4600. They appear to have use the older Shimano pull ratio.

Since the Tiagra 4700 RD uses the new 11-speed Shimano road pull ratio, the shifters are designed with that in mind. Thus, they will work with 11-speed Shimano road RDs, provided a 10-speed cassette is used. I have the Tiagra 4700 shifters shifting a R7000 RD; they work flawlessly together to shift a 10-speed cassette.

The issue for the Tiagra 4700 and its RD using the new Shimano "11-speed" road pull ratio is discussed at length here. The linked discussion is one of the things that drew me to this forum.

New Tiagra 4700 compatibility with 11s Shimano parts

Bottom line: Tiagra 4700 is designed to use the newer Shimano 11-speed road actuation ratio. Tiagra 4700 shifters work perfectly with Shimano's newer 11-speed RDs, provided you use a 10-speed cassette. The reverse should also be true; in that case (Shimano 11-speed road shifters shifting a Tiagra 4700 RD), an 11-speed cassette would be needed for proper operation. I say "should also be" here simply because I've not tried it myself.

FWIW: can't find a link to any list in your previous comment. Dunno what happened, but a link to that info would be useful. Please post it.

Last edited by Hondo6; 09-21-21 at 05:30 AM. Reason: Add omitted info, minor wording changes, and correct typo.
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Old 09-21-21, 04:37 AM
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Originally Posted by ganner View Post
r7000 is 11 speed my friend. of course it will work with a 4700.

question is if a 4700 rd will work with a 10 speed shifter.
Depends on the shifter. But in most cases, no. Tiagra 4700 shifters will work with a 4700 RD (obviously), and as I recall reputedly one or two other Shimano 10-speed gravel shifters of new design will also work with a Tiagra 4700 RD (depending on memory here, so I could be mistaken, it might be the other way around - e.g., some new design gravel RDs compatible with Tiagra 4700 shifters). But most if not all other 10-speed Shimano road shifters won't "play nice" with a Tiagra 4700 RD due to different actuation ratios. See my comment above and the discussion thread I linked there.

I'm fairly sure none of the Shimano MTB 10-speed shifters will work with a Tiagra 4700 RD. Shimano drastically changed their MTB RD actuation ratio at 10-speed, and it's not the same as either the 11-speed road actuation ratio or the previous Shimano "universal" actuation ratio for RDs 7-9 speed (plus road 10-speed prior to Tiagra 4700, which also used that same actuation ratio).

Last edited by Hondo6; 09-23-21 at 07:33 AM. Reason: Add 2nd para and minor wording changes for clarity and correct typo.
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Old 09-21-21, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Hondo6 View Post
FWIW: can't find a link to any list in your previous comment. Dunno what happened, but a link to that info would be useful. Please post it.
Here's the link. Bike Cassettes & Drivetrains - Google Sheets I think you're right on the compatibility of a total 4700 setup for 10 speed. I'm just going by my maybe flawed assumption of what works together. Good call on that.
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Old 09-21-21, 07:58 AM
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a

Originally Posted by Crankycrank View Post
Here's the link. Bike Cassettes & Drivetrains - Google Sheets I think you're right on the compatibility of a total 4700 setup for 10 speed. I'm just going by my maybe flawed assumption of what works together. Good call on that.
Thanks for posting the link. It should prove useful.

Believe me, I researched Tiagra 4700 and it's compatibility with 11-speed components fairly thoroughly during my last bike build. I was still in "newbie learning mode" then, and wanted to make fairly sure I didn't make yet another drivetrain incompatibility error costing substantially more than the first two had put together. The thread I linked helped; and eventually I decided to join the forum, in large part because of that. (smile)

Last edited by Hondo6; 09-21-21 at 07:58 AM. Reason: Minor wording change for correctness.
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Old 09-21-21, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by ganner View Post
<snipped>……question is if a 4700 rd will work with a 10 speed shifter.
No. The derailleur can be adjusted so it shifts sort of OK in the first few or last few of the cogs on the 10-speed cassette but the shifts get progressively worse as the der advances across the cassette.

Last edited by Davet; 09-21-21 at 10:01 AM.
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Old 09-21-21, 10:24 AM
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The principle of actuation ratio for a rear derailleur is pretty simple. It moves over a certain amount for the amount of cable the shifter pulls.

Technically, RD are not speed specific, but ratio specific. This is overly simplistic but it is the shifter that operates the RD. The old Shimano standard was 1.7:1. I imagine that as cassette cogs became closer and internal cable routing was the norm, Shimano determined that it was better to have the shifter pull more cable and the RD move less per mm, 1.4:1 for Tiagra 10, 11 and 12(?). This my be a bit altruistic in that Shimano is also planning obsolescence for older 10 speed.

John
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Old 09-21-21, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by 70sSanO View Post
The principle of actuation ratio for a rear derailleur is pretty simple. It moves over a certain amount for the amount of cable the shifter pulls.

Technically, RD are not speed specific, but ratio specific. This is overly simplistic but it is the shifter that operates the RD. The old Shimano standard was 1.7:1. I imagine that as cassette cogs became closer and internal cable routing was the norm, Shimano determined that it was better to have the shifter pull more cable and the RD move less per mm, 1.4:1 for Tiagra 10, 11 and 12(?). This my be a bit altruistic in that Shimano is also planning obsolescence for older 10 speed.

John
Techncially, Shimano does design some of the dimensions of the jockey wheels and cage width etc around a specific chain width, so you do get better shifting with, say, a 10 speed road derailleur with a 10sp drivetrain than with an 8sp road derailleur, but it's pretty minor. You're likelier to have a problem running a 10 speed road derailleur with an 8 speed drivetrain, but again, it'll probably work.
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Old 09-21-21, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by cpach View Post
Techncially, Shimano does design some of the dimensions of the jockey wheels and cage width etc around a specific chain width, so you do get better shifting with, say, a 10 speed road derailleur with a 10sp drivetrain than with an 8sp road derailleur, but it's pretty minor. You're likelier to have a problem running a 10 speed road derailleur with an 8 speed drivetrain, but again, it'll probably work.
Absolutely correct. Running an old 6/7 speed wide cage RD with a 10 speed system is probably not a good thing. Likewise, RD travel might be an issue.

John
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Old 09-21-21, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by 70sSanO View Post
The principle of actuation ratio for a rear derailleur is pretty simple. It moves over a certain amount for the amount of cable the shifter pulls.

Technically, RD are not speed specific, but ratio specific. This is overly simplistic but it is the shifter that operates the RD. The old Shimano standard was 1.7:1. I imagine that as cassette cogs became closer and internal cable routing was the norm, Shimano determined that it was better to have the shifter pull more cable and the RD move less per mm, 1.4:1 for Tiagra 10, 11 and 12(?). This my be a bit altruistic in that Shimano is also planning obsolescence for older 10 speed.

John
Can I know which

a. 10 speed cassette with 34T to get? (new and current model. i can't ebay)
b. 9 speed RD (new and current)
c. chain?

if I have CS-6700 1.7 pull ratio shifters.

appreciate it.
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Old 09-21-21, 09:58 PM
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You can use any Shimano compatible 10 speed cassette. That includes SRAM, Sunrace, and Microshift. You should be able to find an 11-34 from one of them through an LBS or online.

For a new non-eBay rear derailleur probably an m591 or m592. They seem to be in stock online at some places. I’ve not run either and can’t say if the m592, which is a shadow, will shift any better. The downside with a double crank is they are both SGS, long cage, which might not be needed depending on your crank setup. The 592 is rated to a 36t max cog if that gives you an option you didn’t consider.

There might be another non-eBay RD option that I’m not aware of that someone else can recommend. I get the majority of my older parts off eBay, so I’m not a great source on who still has stuff.

John
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Old 09-21-21, 10:02 PM
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Literally any Shimano/SRAM/Microshift 11-34 will work for the cassette. https://www.amazon.com/SHIMANO-CS-HG...2283192&sr=8-3 for example
Literally any 9 speed Shimano/Microshift mountain rear derailleur. https://www.amazon.com/SHIMANO-RD-M5...8-2&th=1&psc=1
LIterally any 10 speed Shimano/SRAM/KMC/YBN/etc chain. https://www.amazon.com/SHIMANO-Tiagr...2283288&sr=8-7

All examples.
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