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Another 126mm to 130mm thread

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Another 126mm to 130mm thread

Old 09-25-21, 12:13 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by icemilkcoffee
If you must have an 11 speed drivetrain then I guess you have no choice. Do you really need an 11 speed drivetrain that 7,8,9 speeds won't do?
OP can have an 11-speed drivetrain if he wants it. What is your point in continuing to post in this thread?
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Old 09-25-21, 05:00 PM
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My 2 cents. Five years ago, I converted my Ciocc from 7 spd to 10 spd . With my weak thumbs, I just spread the drop outs, slip the 10 spd hub right into the drop outs. No issues. We're only talking the width of a spoke. KB.
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Old 09-25-21, 08:37 PM
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I've never spread the rear triangle of a frame from 126 to 130. Steel, aluminum, carbon fiber, it never mattered.

As has been said, you're talking about the width of a spoke (2 mm) on each side. There has never been a frame that wasn't designed around way more than 2 mm of cyclic deflection at the rear dropouts... because you're gonna get that with every pedal stroke unless you make your frame out of pressure-cast concrete.

How to put a 130mm hub into a 126mm frame? Stuff the rear wheel into the bike, set your high and low limit screws, and ride the bike for the rest of your life.

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Old 09-26-21, 06:19 PM
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My only comment to stuffing a 130mm OLD into 126mm dropouts is that sometimes it does work.

When it doesn’t work well and you have shifting problems 90% of the responses will ask if you checked the derailleur hanger.

John
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Old 09-27-21, 10:52 AM
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Having spread a few frames here are my comments.

Spreading from 126-130 only 2mm per side, not much and any steel frame should allow this. Generally, don't spread aluminum.

some frames spread much easier than others. steel in some frames is very springy making spreading a bit more difficult.
If I am going to spread I will first try to do it using the threaded rod method or using a large wooden Jorgensen clamp I have.
If the frame is stiff, springy I clamp the frame to my work bench then using a length of oak lumber(you would use 2x4) bend each side separately.
After spreading, check that both sides are spread the same using a length of string pulled from the head tube to the dropout on either side and measure from string to down tube, must be equal.
Finally, check the drop out alignment using 2 bolts secured to the dropouts with 2 nuts each and meeting in the middle. Adjust till the 2 bolts are aligned .
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Old 09-27-21, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by jnbrown
Because I want to use an 11 speed cassette, I don't think that is possible with a hub that is 126mm.
I agree with the 2x4, I do not want to do that with a frame that I value highly.
It is steel and you won't do any damage if you work slowly. Putting a 130 hub in a 126 dropout stress the axle and bearings.
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Old 09-29-21, 01:36 PM
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I solved this same issue when I wanted to get a wide ratio cassette for my road bike to help climb steep hills. The original was an old SunTour 6 speed freewheel in a 126mm frame. Couldn't find a wide ratio upgrade so I replaced the Suntour with a Shimano FH-RS400 hub and a CS-HG50 8 speed cassette (11-34T). The RS400 has a nominal 130mm OLD but it also has a thick spacer washer on the left-hand side which I removed and replaced with a pair of regular stainless steel flat washers from Home Depot to get exactly 126mm OLD. It fit into the 126mm frame perfectly with a very minor dishing when truing the wheel.
The FH-RS400 specs say it can accommodate an 11 speed HG cassette.
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Old 09-30-21, 11:23 AM
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As mentioned above if you are only wanting 4 mm take a look at the hub. A lot of times there is a huge spacer on the non drive side that can be eliminated or replaced with something shorter. Then re dish (re center for those bothered by the "dish" term) and you're good to go.
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Old 09-30-21, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by R.M.W.
I solved this same issue when I wanted to get a wide ratio cassette for my road bike to help climb steep hills. The original was an old SunTour 6 speed freewheel in a 126mm frame. Couldn't find a wide ratio upgrade so I replaced the Suntour with a Shimano FH-RS400 hub and a CS-HG50 8 speed cassette (11-34T). The RS400 has a nominal 130mm OLD but it also has a thick spacer washer on the left-hand side which I removed and replaced with a pair of regular stainless steel flat washers from Home Depot to get exactly 126mm OLD. It fit into the 126mm frame perfectly with a very minor dishing when truing the wheel.
The FH-RS400 specs say it can accommodate an 11 speed HG cassette.
Originally Posted by 3Roch
As mentioned above if you are only wanting 4 mm take a look at the hub. A lot of times there is a huge spacer on the non drive side that can be eliminated or replaced with something shorter. Then re dish (re center for those bothered by the "dish" term) and you're good to go.
The issue with reducing the OLD in this method is that the wheel can become too heavily dished and lose some of its structural integrity.

With many Shimano 8/9/10 speed hubs, the original setup already has the right side spokes with a tension about twice as much as the left side. Removing spacers only on the left and re-dishing will mean that the right/left tension balance will get worst. This will mean that the right side may need to be higher than the rim can handle, or the left side will be so loose that it will continually experience a cycle of slackening/straightening which will accelerate spoke fatigue. An estimate that did for some Shimano hubs put the left side tension at about 40% of the right side tension.

On a 11 speed hub, the dishing would be potentially even greater. An asymmetrical rim will help in this situation.

Question to the wheelbuilders out there, how much of an difference in left to right tension balance is acceptable or safe???
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Old 09-30-21, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by 3Roch
As mentioned above if you are only wanting 4 mm take a look at the hub. A lot of times there is a huge spacer on the non drive side that can be eliminated or replaced with something shorter. Then re dish (re center for those bothered by the "dish" term) and you're good to go.
My guess is that if a wheel has a large spacer like that it was really a 126 wheel to begin with. The whole point of the extra space was to allow more cogs on and if you take that away with a spacer you haven't gained anything. These are probably made for use on 130 frames during the transition period. As I posted above I have a Cannondale with 128 spacing that was made to accept either size hub as 2mm of give either way was acceptable, and these were transition frames. I didn't get whether the OP already has a wheel set he wanted to use or was just looking to buy.

And 11 speed is actually a 131 hub. It's a silly millimeter longer. (Do you remember those ads? or am I showing my age? or both?)
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Old 09-30-21, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by KCT1986
The issue with reducing the OLD in this method is that the wheel can become too heavily dished and lose some of its structural integrity.

With many Shimano 8/9/10 speed hubs, the original setup already has the right side spokes with a tension about twice as much as the left side. Removing spacers only on the left and re-dishing will mean that the right/left tension balance will get worst. This will mean that the right side may need to be higher than the rim can handle, or the left side will be so loose that it will continually experience a cycle of slackening/straightening which will accelerate spoke fatigue. An estimate that did for some Shimano hubs put the left side tension at about 40% of the right side tension.

On a 11 speed hub, the dishing would be potentially even greater. An asymmetrical rim will help in this situation.

Question to the wheelbuilders out there, how much of an difference in left to right tension balance is acceptable or safe???
I was aware of the stress on the spokes but not concerned because I ride this road bike only on smooth paved routes. No curb jumping. However, boulder hopping on a mountain bike, or laying sideways skid marks like we did on the banana seat stingray bikes as kids, would be a major concern.

Also, this road bike wheel has 36 spokes which help distribute the tension across several spokes.
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Old 09-30-21, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by R.M.W.
I was aware of the stress on the spokes but not concerned because I ride this road bike only on smooth paved routes. No curb jumping. However, boulder hopping on a mountain bike, or laying sideways skid marks like we did on the banana seat stingray bikes as kids, would be a major concern.

Also, this road bike wheel has 36 spokes which help distribute the tension across several spokes.
Good that you understand the issue and limitations. More spokes do make a difference.

Stingrays were the "bomb" BITD. The Scrambler version was the bike to have, as well as the BMX Scrambler. Went through a lot of tires and replacement parts on my Schwinn, but the 10 pound frame was always solid.
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Old 10-01-21, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by jnbrown
I just received my 1985 Mercian frameset.
I measured the rear dropouts and they are 126mm.
I would like to use a 130mm hub. The options as I understand it are:

1. Leave as is and just spread the dropouts when putting the wheel in. I tried spreading them and it does take a little bit of effort.

2. Spread them by hand by using a threaded rod, washers and nuts. This could risk damaging the frame.

3. Take it to a frame builder and have them do it.

Option 1 is preferred and I don't plan on taking off the wheel except for flats.
I know of two frame builders locally (SoCal) but not sure if they do this and how much they charge.

Thanks for any advise.
IMO totally unnecessary to spread the frame. Just use a little elbow grease when putting the 130 hub in and spread the dropouts using your hands. 4mm is very little and is quite easy to do. done.
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Old 10-10-21, 08:00 PM
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Today I took the rear wheel off my Cannondale and attempted to install into the Mercian rear dropouts.
The stays on this bike feel very stiff although they measure 43cm. It became obvious that there was no way I was going to to be able to hold the dropouts to 130mm and slide the wheel in without possibly mangling the frame.
I have pretty strong hands and it stills feels like it takes quite a bit of pressure.
So the decision became easy, I am taking it to Joe Bell to have him spread it.
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Old 10-11-21, 07:15 AM
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Well I guess some frames are easier to spread than others. But the real moral of the story is to just try it.

I think I mentioned too though that 11sp is 131 spacing, The frames are still 130 but that 1mm isn't noticeable. For a 126 frame though that extra 1mm may be too much on what is already literally a stretch.
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Old 10-11-21, 08:07 AM
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I just spread a 1980s Trek steel frame (Reynolds 501) from 126 to 130 and it went perfectly. I had good tools--the Park frame straightener, frame alignment gauge, and dropout alignment tool. It took a few minutes on the shop floor, and another few minutes back in the stand. (I also successfully got out the stuck AL seat post, but that's another story.)

I tried to ride a similar bike without spreading the frame and had troubles with it. A very slight misalignment in the dropouts caused problems with keeping the QR axle tight enough. I got a lot of flats in those days, often carried a load commuting to work or touring, and the extra step of spreading the rear triangle, often in inclement weather or in the dark, got to be a pain as well. Now that I have access to good shop tools at the non-profit where I volunteer, I'll gladly spread the frame.
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Old 10-11-21, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by icemilkcoffee
Why do you want to spread it to 130mm? Just leave it at 126mm. Depending on which hub you plan to use, there are different ways to narrow the hubs to 126mm.

Speaking for myself, I will never buy a frame that has been tweaked by some rando with a 2X4 on their garage floor. Do not do this to anything other than a throw-away frame that has no value to anyone.
Sorry but this is crazy talk. We're looking at 2mm per side. I've had my shop do several frames, no need for a frame builder. Then the shop can align the dropouts perfectly too. Easy peasy.
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Old 10-13-21, 11:17 PM
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May I ask a basic question? After swapping 6/7 speed to 8/9/10/11 speed. It will need a new shifter, right ?
Most of 6/7 speeds bikes have down tube shifter and most 8..11+ bikes have STI. Isn't it a big effort for the change.

Ryan
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Old 10-14-21, 04:05 AM
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There are two parts to this.

Changing from a 126mm freewheel compatible to a 130mm freehub/cassette is the first part. The number of speeds, technically 6/7/8/9/10 (6-10) or get an 11 speed hub which I believe is 131mm.

The 126 to 130 by has been discussed by spreading or forcing the hub into the dropouts.

The shifting and number of gears is dependent on index or friction shifting, and derailleur range; 6/7 speed require a spacer behind the cassette. 6 speed is an odd one because I can’t recall a 6 speed hyperglide cassette. But it is “possible”to run 5 cogs from a uniglide cassette and a hyperglide 1st position cog and lockring.

If index shifters are used, then yes you would need new downtube index shifters to match the number of speeds; or convert to compatible speed STI shifters.

All of this assumes a current Shimano drivetrain.

If the shifters are friction they can be used without issue, except for having to be more precise. Derailleur range can be an issue if a 6 speed RD can’t travel enough to reach all the cogs with a wider cassette (10 speed).

Which also brings up a crank/chainring issues. Running a 6 speed crank is no issue with 6/7/8 speed chains. Sometimes a bit finicky with 9 speed due to a slightly narrower chain. 6 speed crank with 10 speed chain might cause problems with an even narrower chain but I imagine someone runs this setup.

11 speed is a different animal and would require a new drivetrain.

I suppose you could get away with just a crank change if running 11 speed friction; but you would need to be crazy good.

John

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Old 10-14-21, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by ryanl092
May I ask a basic question? After swapping 6/7 speed to 8/9/10/11 speed. It will need a new shifter, right ?
Most of 6/7 speeds bikes have down tube shifter and most 8..11+ bikes have STI. Isn't it a big effort for the change.

Ryan
I just went through this very operation on an old bike. For me the shifter change took an extra two hours, but I am unusually fortunate to have access to the parts bins at a non-profit shop. I found a nice wheel with an 8-speed cassette, and a set of old 8-speed Sora brifters in great shape (my wife has been riding with the same model for fifteen years without a problem). I also found housing stops that bolted right on to the old downtube shifter bosses.

I agree that for most home mechanics, getting the parts would be much more difficult. Even in the shop, finding the parts took nearly as much time as installing them.

I did a test ride before changing out the shifters and didn't like the precision needed for friction shifting even with the 8 speed. I know it can be done, but I've gotten spoiled from thirty-plus years of indexed shifting.
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