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10-speed shifter replacement (Dura-Ace, Record)

Old 10-15-21, 07:25 AM
  #1  
nilser
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10-speed shifter replacement (Dura-Ace, Record)

Hello,
I've been almost completely off my bike for a few years and am getting back into it.
I have a beautiful Time VXRS lugged carbon bike from 2005, Same frame that won the 2004 Olympics, with Dura-ace ST-7800 2x10 groupset, also from 2005, and Easton EC-90 slx carbon tubular wheels.
It's a great ride, very comfortable compared to new monocoque frames. But the shifters are getting very slugginsh, especially shifting down. On both shifters, i need to gently push the lever for it to engage, and often need to gently press the brake...
I've taken it to several local repair shops, but it's no use. I need to replace them. This is where i need your advice!

Option 1:
Find 10-speed shifters. Shimano seems close to impossible to find, but Capagnolo Record I can find online, used or even new old stock. Are the Record 10-speed shifters compatible with my Dura Ace derailleurs? If so, this seems like a good option. As the derailleurs seem to work fine.

Option 2:
Spend quite a lot more, and get a new groupset. The good news is that the bike will be like new. I'd probably go for Campagnolo Record, unless there is a good reason to stay with Dura-Ace. But here i would need to change quite a few things:
- shifters (obviously)
- derailleurs (and cables)
- chain
- crankset
- cassette

Will the 12-speed cassette be compatible with my wheels?

My brakes are fine, no need to change those, right?

I don't like the new electronic stuff btw. Actually i like to ride with no electronics at all (only the phone, just in case).

Thank you for your advice!!!

Nilser
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Old 10-15-21, 08:37 AM
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Your bike is the same time frame (no pun intended) as mine. I have a 2005 Kuota with Campy 10 on it, Easton wheels. The issue you will run into is that anything new has moved on from those specs. The problem with shifters is that they are never compatible with anything else, Campy shifters won't work with a Shimano derailleur or vice versa, cassettes aren't compatible, wheels aren't compatible. All the systems have such tight tolerances that they only work as a group.

Here at Bikeforums though we are Kluge Central. My advice though is to stay away because once you get something to work you are then stuck with it because nothing else will, not even the compatible components. Somebody here will say to get a Shiftmate, that converts pull ratios from Shimano to Campy or vice versa. It'll work, maybe, but will it work well? Will you be able to swap wheels? Maybe, maybe not.

When I bought my Kuota new, I wanted Campy 10 but I had a pair of Velomax wheels that I liked that were Shimano. I asked if I could use a conversion cassette because everyone here said yes, but his answer was an emphatic NO. There just isn't enough room, and you are spending $3500 but you are going to use a kluge??? Just get fully compatible wheels, which I did.

The klugiest thing I did was to make a Campy spaced cassette out of a Shimano Ultegra. It works great but this is on my trainer, not on a wheel. While I could see how it could work I wouldn't want to be riding outdoors only to have the shifting be kind of funky. Indoors on the trainer doesn't matter. And to the shop's point above, the trainer takes 11 speed, which has more space than the 10sp that was available when I bought the bike and hence would work. But why would I build a bike with 10sp and then use an 11sp wheel? Just build it with 11sp.

And back to your specific question, you are unlikely to find a NOS ST-7800, but maybe you could if you keep checking. I just checked eBay and they were all used. A used one will possibly have the same problem as yours. Oh, and you are learning something else, Shimano can't be repaired, Campy can. I replaced the springs in my Chorus 10 and it shifts like new. If you buy a new groupset be prepared to buy new wheels too. Not sure the older Easton wheels can take 12 speed.

Here's a brief rundown of things that have changed in 16 years: 12speed, thru-axles, disc brakes, bottom brackets, seat posts, stems. In particular disc brakes, rim brakes seem to be disappearing from new bikes, and with disc brakes come thru axle hubs because they can take the braking action.
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Old 10-15-21, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by zacster View Post
Somebody here will say to get a Shiftmate, that converts pull ratios from Shimano to Campy or vice versa. It'll work, maybe, but will it work well?
Will it work well? Emphatically yes. I've used Shiftmates to allow 10-speed Campy brifters to work with Shimano 10-speed cassettes and derailleurs and Shimano 10-speed shifters to work with Campy 10-speed cassettes and derailleurs. In both cases shifting was flawless.

If all you want to do is replace the worn out 10-speed Shimano STIs with Campy 10-speed Ergos, a Shiftmate will make them play very nicely together so Option 1 is feasible.

But, as noted, current groups are 11 or even 12-speed and your 10-speed wheels won't accommodate either width cassette so Option 2 will be much more expensive but will modernize the frame as much as possible. Current Shimano brifters have a somewhat longer brake cable pull than older groups so your current brakes may not work as well. AFAIK, Campy hasn't made that change so your brakes should be ok but check on this.

Disc brakes and thru-axles will obviously require a completely new frame and fork and are beyond the scope of your questions.
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Old 10-15-21, 09:43 AM
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First of all you should try disassembling and cleaning out the old shifters with WD40. I've never cleaned out a 10sp shifter but I've brought several 7-8 sp brifters back to life.

Secondly, you can get Microshift shifters which will be fully compatible with your Shimano shifters, without having to fuss with Shiftmate, etc.

Third option would be the Tiagra 4600 brifters (ie. not 4700). They are still available new on Ebay.
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Old 10-15-21, 09:55 AM
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nilser - just checking about your 7800 shifters: have you replaced the housings & the inner wires any time recently? The sluggish up shifts makes me think that the inner cable is starting to fray. Iím running 7800 2x system and have had a few of these issues which were greatly improved by doing this type of maintenance.
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Old 10-15-21, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by icemilkcoffee View Post
First of all you should try disassembling and cleaning out the old shifters with WD40. I've never cleaned out a 10sp shifter but I've brought several 7-8 sp brifters back to life.

Secondly, you can get Microshift shifters which will be fully compatible with your Shimano shifters, without having to fuss with Shiftmate, etc.

Third option would be the Tiagra 4600 brifters (ie. not 4700). They are still available new on Ebay.
no on disassembly, there are no designed for that, just flush the heck of of them with copious amounts of wd40, working the mechs. then some silicon based lube
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Old 10-15-21, 10:12 AM
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Start with small squirt of wd 40 on all the outer cable ends you can see. Work the shifters and cables while pedalling.
Might be enough. If not, same for shifters and derailleur.
It didn't wear out or go out of adjustment when it was sitting around.
Start simple. Small amounts of wd40. It shouldn't be dripping down anywhere but all of it wicked up into the cable ends.
If that doesn't work it's replacement parts.
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Old 10-15-21, 10:12 AM
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Microshift could be a great option (As long as you don't get Tiagra 4700 compatible) but definitely check the cables/housing if you haven't done so already. I had some housing start falling apart in a Campagnolo 10 speed ergo (so no ferules keeping the end together) and it made the shifting go completely to crap until I replaced the housing and then it was good as new.
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Old 10-15-21, 10:33 AM
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Thank you for your replies!!

It sounds like the easiest solution is to keep looking for old-stock shifters...

Or as you pointed out, the Tiagra 4600.
Looking around, SRAM Red is for 10 speeds might be an option - and more compatible with Shimano components than Campy is? I might be able to find those new.

How does a Shiftmate work, where is it installed? Is just for the rear derailleur? I visited their website. If i understand correctly i would be using a shiftmate 1 between the Campy 10 shifter and Shimano 10 derailleur?

Could i pull off option 2 (new groupset) with a re-build of the rear wheel (new hub)? Would another (new) high-end groupset be a better option for me if i can avoid the wheel re-build? Maybe 11 speed?

Thanks.

And sorry if i opened too many cans of worms!


PS: I did have 2 different pro work on the shifters, with temporary results at best. One of them spent an entire day on them. So i don;t hink it's a question of WD 40. Though the cables might not be set well, i get the feeling this might be part of the problem.

Last edited by nilser; 10-15-21 at 10:36 AM.
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Old 10-15-21, 12:32 PM
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In my part of the world, having a pro shop work for an 'entire day' on a set of shifters would have cost you more than $500. I assume that they did the standard WD-40 flush, and replaced all of the cables and housings, which should have consumed the first hour. If that didn't work, then it is time to move onto a new set of shifters.

I have bikes with Shimano STI, SRAM and (several) with Campagnolo Ergopower. The key drivetrain components are completely incompatible with each other. The wheels are mostly incompatible.

I assume you are getting advice from a bike shop whose motivations are to get you to spend the maximum amount of money possible, such as with the recommendation to go with SRAM Red or Campagnolo. So complete drivetrain replacements plus rear wheel? So keep this simple and inexpensive, and go with the Tiagra 4600 10-speed shifters. Or something from Microshift.
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Old 10-15-21, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
In my part of the world, having a pro shop work for an 'entire day' on a set of shifters would have cost you more than $500. I assume that they did the standard WD-40 flush, and replaced all of the cables and housings, which should have consumed the first hour. If that didn't work, then it is time to move onto a new set of shifters.

I have bikes with Shimano STI, SRAM and (several) with Campagnolo Ergopower. The key drivetrain components are completely incompatible with each other. The wheels are mostly incompatible.
I believe the mechanic started with that, then tried to do some magic with the springs inside. He said it would be better for a while but that it was not fixable. It was better, It didn;t last. The cost wasn't 500, but it wasn't cheap either. The re-kitting of the bike is my idea, not the bike shop's.

But regarding compatibility, i was under the impression that SRAM 10-speed and Shimano 10-speed use the same chain, chainrings, etc. Is this not so?

So if i find an SRAM 10-speed shifter and derailleur set (Red or Apex or whatever) i would besically rekit my bike with a high-end group with minimal hassle. And for a reasonable 1000-ish euro for the RED, half that for the Apex.

Are the Tiagra or the Microshift any good? I've never heard of Microshift before. It's an interesting option.
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Old 10-15-21, 02:51 PM
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I just took a look at all my usual vendors and you might be completely out of luck on finding new ones. Nobody has anything in 10sp Shimano. I have a sense that 10sp didn't last all that long, that 9sp went to 10, but then 11 pretty quickly.
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Old 10-15-21, 02:52 PM
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I've owned a bike with Tiagra 4600. This gear is as good as anyone needs. Because the shift cables run outside of the bar wrap, they feature smoother shifting. When Shimano put the cables under the bar tape, it introduced tight bends and extra friction. Plus the newer shifters eat cables regularly and when they do, it is a hassle to change them. I have used every generation of STI (and SRAM and Ergopower) shifters since the dawn of time, and Shimano 7700 and 7800 feature the smoothest and most precise shifting of the lot. 4600 is right up there as well, just a tad heavier than Dura-Ace.
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Old 10-15-21, 06:10 PM
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If I was you, I'd try Campy shifters and a Shiftmate. I've got that setup in 9s, and it works sweet. If you're not happy with that for whatever reason, you can sell the shifters and your Shimano derailers, and use SRAM. Red is nice and light, but the shift feel is crappy next to Shimano or Campy.

Shimergo via Shiftmate is definitely the most elegant solution to your issue.
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Old 10-15-21, 06:21 PM
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There is also this option. Not everyone's cup of tea but some really like them. Watch the video to see them in action. CX – Compatible with Shimano Road Derailleurs – Gevenalle
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Old 10-15-21, 06:36 PM
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This bike is rocking the last silver Dura-Ace group - it deserves something sexy IMO. Record levers and a Shiftmate is chef's kiss.
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Old 10-15-21, 10:10 PM
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Given the era of your wheels, they are probably have a Shimano 10 speed freehub body. If you want to go to Shimano/Sram 11 speed road, you'll need to source a replacement freehub body which may be difficult to source--I'd try both Easton direct and eBay. The exception is if you want to switch to a 11 speed 11-34 cassette, which will fit on a 10 speed freehub body. The same essentially is true for Campagnolo 10-13 speed--you'll need a Campagnolo freehub body.

Shimano/Sram/Campagnolo are all different cable pull standards and any mixing of shifters and derailleurs will need something like a shiftmate.

If you're really wanting replacements in good used condition there are some on eBay. I'm kinda tempted to sell you mine, but parts are difficult to source right now and I don't need more projects.

Brakes will technically work with anything, but Shimano 10+ speed brake levers pull more cable than Sram or Campagnolo and so you get arguably excessive mechanical advantage if you use Sram/Campy levers with Shimano brakes, and will also have to run your pads with less clearance. This might feel acceptable, but be warned this is out of spec.
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Old 10-15-21, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by cpach View Post
Brakes will technically work with anything, but Shimano 10+ speed brake levers pull more cable than Sram or Campagnolo and so you get arguably excessive mechanical advantage if you use Sram/Campy levers with Shimano brakes, and will also have to run your pads with less clearance. This might feel acceptable, but be warned this is out of spec.
I thought Shimano's brake cable pull changed when the shift cables went under the tape, ie 2nd-gen 10s?
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Old 10-16-21, 06:39 AM
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The most future proof option is Gevenalle levers and shifters or the same levers with bar end shifters. I think microshift also makes 2x10 down tube shifters too. It looks like cassettes and chains in 10sp will be easy to find for a long time, though maybe not Dura Ace.

The above would work really well but neither would have the sexiness that you currently have.

In your position Iíd get gevenalle. It actually might shift better than the original. Iíve been thoroughly impressed with Microshift shifters on a few bikes Iíve had.

Fortunately for me my sexy steel bike of the same age as yours has Campy Chorus. I got the levers rebuilt last summer.
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Old 10-16-21, 06:59 AM
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Out of necessity I have two bikes running Shiftmate 3, flawlessly and to me less jarring than the other options.
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Old 10-16-21, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by rosefarts View Post
The most future proof option is Gevenalle levers and shifters or the same levers with bar end shifters....... It looks like cassettes and chains in 10sp will be easy to find for a long time, though maybe not Dura Ace.

The above would work really well but neither would have the sexiness that you currently have.

In your position Iíd get gevenalle. It actually might shift better than the original. Iíve been thoroughly impressed with Microshift shifters on a few bikes Iíve had.
I am a huge fan of the Gevenalle lever/shifter setup and have them in 10-speed form on three bikes including two Litespeed Titanium frames so they aren't on low end bikes. Over the years I've used friction and indexed downtube, barend, Shimano STI in 7,8 and 9-speed versions and 10-speed Campy Chorus shifters and found the Gevenalle to be the most low cost, durable, convenient and upgradable option I know of. In the OP's case they would allow him to keep all of his other Dura Ace components including his wheels, derailleurs and brakes and 10-speed cassettes and chains will be around for many years to come.

They certainly don't have the sexininess of Dura Ace or Chorus/Record but sometimes social status should take a back seat to usefulness.
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Old 10-16-21, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by rosefarts View Post
The most future proof option is Gevenalle levers and shifters or the same levers with bar end shifters. I think microshift also makes 2x10 down tube shifters too. It looks like cassettes and chains in 10sp will be easy to find for a long time, though maybe not Dura Ace.

The above would work really well but neither would have the sexiness that you currently have.

In your position Iíd get gevenalle. It actually might shift better than the original. Iíve been thoroughly impressed with Microshift shifters on a few bikes Iíve had.

Fortunately for me my sexy steel bike of the same age as yours has Campy Chorus. I got the levers rebuilt last summer.
I have some Kelly Take-Offs and 10 speed DA downtube shifters that I've been saving for years for a bomb-proof touring build that I keep planning on doing (but have never gotten around to building up the wheels for - because building wheels is my least favorite job so I keep finding another project to do instead or just ride the bikes I have).
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Old 10-16-21, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
I thought Shimano's brake cable pull changed when the shift cables went under the tape, ie 2nd-gen 10s?
Yeah, that's more accurate. Tecnically they've messed with it slightly more recently also but it tends not to cause problems.
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Old 10-16-21, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
...the Gevenalle to be the most low cost, durable, convenient and upgradable option I know of. In the OP's case they would allow him to keep all of his other Dura Ace components including his wheels, derailleurs and brakes and 10-speed cassettes and chains will be around for many years to come.

They certainly don't have the sexininess of Dura Ace or Chorus/Record but sometimes social status should take a back seat to usefulness.
Um, same deal with Ergos and a Shiftmate.

Originally Posted by cpach View Post
Yeah, that's more accurate. Tecnically they've messed with it slightly more recently also but it tends not to cause problems.
So the 7800 calipers are totally compatible with Ergos.
Shiftmate!
Shiftmate!
Shiftmate!



​​​​​​​HyperGlide feels lovely through Ergos.
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Old 10-16-21, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by himespau View Post
I have some Kelly Take-Offs and 10 speed DA downtube shifters that I've been saving for years for a bomb-proof touring build.......
Yeah, I had those on one bike several years ago and while they worked OK, the Gevenalle approach is significantly lighter and has far better ergonomics.
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