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Hub failure

Old 10-16-21, 11:02 AM
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Hub failure

I'm 3683 miles into a long tour around the USA. I noticed my rim had a slight wobble so at camp last night I started to true it. I was shocked to find the flange of the hub was actually broken on the drive side. 36h Velo Orange Cassette touring hub. DT Swiss double butted spokes. Dt Swiss tk540 rim Swchalbe marathon plus tour tires. My questions are 1 shouldn't the spokes break before the hub? 2 does any one have any experience with Velo Orange Customer service im still waiting for a reply. (Its the weekend so I hope by Monday to hear from them) the hub only has 3683 miles on it. Other then a defect I don't know what the cause could be. Wheel was laced up using a tensionmeter. Any thoughts on why this happened?


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Old 10-16-21, 11:40 AM
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That's happened to me decades ago, also on a relatively new 36-spoke wheel, also on an extended tour. I don't remember the hub brand, but it was long enough ago to be a freewheel. It was a factory-built wheel. We didn't have email or cell phones or overnight delivery and toll calls were expensive, so I just bought a replacement wheel at the first bike shop I could find and forgot about it.

My failure was also on the rear drive side, as one would expect. My bike was heavily loaded and I rode a few rough roads.

I had another failure with the spokes pulling out of the rim, but that was covered by warranty. If the spokes are installed well and high quality, they might not break before the hub or rim.
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Old 10-16-21, 12:13 PM
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I wonder if this was from a big bump/thump or just wear and tear. did the rim have damage too?

I talked to a guy who did quality control on alloy parts for aircraft. They used very special equipment to test density, purity, strength, and accuracy of the parts. He also said how it was surprising when a lot of high quality parts simply did not make the grade. Chances are that this hub simply had a material defect from its original manufacturing that did not show itself till now...
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Old 10-16-21, 02:26 PM
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36 double-butted spokes, built with a tensiometer... defective hub material is the only thing I can think of, either. Bummer for your tour!
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Old 10-16-21, 03:04 PM
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Assuming tension wasn't insane, this shouldn't have failed and is simply a warranty issue. Ive never warrantied vo but I'd assume they'd this failure. They will likely want proof of purchase.
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Old 10-16-21, 03:35 PM
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I had an American classic front hub with 36 spokes break through 2 spoke holes. A friend had a flange on a shimano rear hub crack. Those are the only two I know of. Most likely bad luck.
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Old 10-16-21, 04:21 PM
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Thanks every one for the replies.
No, there was no damage to the rim or any of the spokes. I do have a lot of weight on it and have rode some rough trails. I have pretty wide tires 46mm and would search out gravel routes when possible. The Across Vermont and across New Hampshire trails and most the rail trails in Maine are particularly rough because they are open to atvs. And the four wheelers and dirt bikes had them pretty tore up in places. (Not talking bad about atvs the atv clubs are who made a lot of trails possible in these 3 states) After all those rough miles it broke on a nice paved rail trail in Maryland.I realize it could of been cracked for hundreds of miles. But my rim was never out of true. 3683 miles is not of miles. Any way I'm hoping it's under warranty and that I don't need proof of purchase. Lol recites are not something I pack on tour. I'll let every one know how it turns out.

Rail trails in Maine
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Old 10-16-21, 05:46 PM
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A warranty will be nice, but the important thing will be to just get back on the road/trail, which will likely be rebuilding a wheel. Although I'd be reluctant to go back to the same configuration that just failed.

I think White Industries uses a little beefier flange on their hubs, although I'm not quite sure what the criteria for a good touring hub should be.

Of course, one might chalk up the first failure to a fluke.
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Old 10-16-21, 06:53 PM
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Flange cracking at spoke holes is as old as tension spoked wheels are. Or at least for the last 60/70 years with Al being used for hub shells. Al has an amount of notch sensitivity. A crease, scratch or gouge acts as a stress riser and all the stress is focused in this weaker point. This is why when recycling an used hub it's best to match the spoke/hub shell orientation that the original wheel used. Once a crack starts it tends to travel fast in Al. Very high spoke tensions are a contributor as can be the lacing pattern (when a radial pattern is used, not what we have here though).

I agree that the age is young for this to happen. Even with the extreme use one would expect the hub shell to not crack (as mentioned- assuming reasonable spoke tensions). I would hope that VO would replace the hub, Warranty or customer consideration... Two aspects remaining are if only the hub is replaced who pays for the wheel rebuild and that you've got to get back on the road.

I would replace the wheel now and finish off the tour. Have the shop who sells you/installs the wheel ship the old one back to you and then after you get back home follow up on any replacement offers. Andy
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Old 10-16-21, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
I would replace the wheel now and finish off the tour. Have the shop who sells you/installs the wheel ship the old one back to you and then after you get back home follow up on any replacement offers. Andy
It depends on how many days/weeks/months are left in the tour.

It looks like a fair amount of thought was put into building a sturdy bike. Do shops carry anything more that 32h in stock?

If it was me, I'd attempt to rebuild the wheel in the tent, if I could get a matching hub, but also would realize that it is hard to get things perfect.
Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
Al has an amount of notch sensitivity. A crease, scratch or gouge acts as a stress riser and all the stress is focused in this weaker point. This is why when recycling an used hub it's best to match the spoke/hub shell orientation that the original wheel used.
Thanks for the explanation of why one should match original spoke orientation.
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Old 10-16-21, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
It depends on how many days/weeks/months are left in the tour.

It looks like a fair amount of thought was put into building a sturdy bike. Do shops carry anything more that 32h in stock?

If it was me, I'd attempt to rebuild the wheel in the tent, if I could get a matching hub, but also would realize that it is hard to get things perfect.

Thanks for the explanation of why one should match original spoke orientation.

I completely agree in principle. However when touring the options are usually less then what a perfect world will allow for. (And it is dealing with the unexpected and changing options that can make a tour challenging)

Given the current limited supplies and pandemic related stuff my hopes for a best fix are very slim. But a get by one is quite possible. Andy
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Old 10-16-21, 07:32 PM
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It's also a demonstration of why 36 hole rims are good for touring. Two spokes gone to lunch and you didn't notice.
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Old 10-16-21, 07:54 PM
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If you’re still in Maryland, well, so is VO. Might be an opportunity for them to help you out, one way or another.
Folks on this forum use a lot of VO bits and pieces, perhaps they’ll hear about your problems.
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Old 10-16-21, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Thruhiker View Post
...Rail trails in Maine
Wow.. That looks like my neighborhood trails here in Central Texas 10 months outta the year. Even the poison ivy too... Ha
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Old 10-16-21, 11:59 PM
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Re question # 1.

The spoke is the strongest element in the wheel build. An adequately tensioned and "properly fitted" spoke will always outlet the rim spoke bed and/or the hub flange unless it suffers physical damage. Spokes generally fail from fatigue caused by too low spoke tension, improper fit in the flange, or metal defect. In my experience, touring/tandem wheels built from heavier duty components last longer with slightly less than maximum spoke tension and optimal tension balance.

Did you use DT Alpine III for this build? They can be challenge to fit in hubs with smaller spoke holes.

Good luck with you situation!
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Old 10-17-21, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Trevtassie View Post
It's also a demonstration of why 36 hole rims are good for touring. Two spokes gone to lunch and you didn't notice.
Actially I think 36 holes made things worse in this case. Because the holes are closer together and there is less metal between holes. See how it tore through the metal between two adjacent holes.
Back in the olden days of 36hole rims, people probably used lower spoke tension- mainly because the rims were not as strong as they are today. Also a lot of those hubs were large flange hubs, which had more material between holes.
Small flange, high tension and lots of holes= trouble.
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Old 10-17-21, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by icemilkcoffee View Post
Actially I think 36 holes made things worse in this case. Because the holes are closer together and there is less metal between holes. See how it tore through the metal between two adjacent holes.
Back in the olden days of 36hole rims, people probably used lower spoke tension- mainly because the rims were not as strong as they are today. Also a lot of those hubs were large flange hubs, which had more material between holes.
Small flange, high tension and lots of holes= trouble.
True,

But, most companies making modern 36, 40, or 48h hubs are using either mid-flange or high-flange hubs. Be careful with vintage low flange hubs.

I think the OP's hub has adequate spacing between spokes?

Spoke tension may be an issue. I don't remember seeing a discussion. But, say a 20h wheel will need spokes at about twice the tension of a 40h wheel.
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Old 10-17-21, 03:08 PM
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those riding surfaces could pass for the road & "paved pathways" where I ride. lol!

It is likely the hub had a defect that exacerbated when challenged with the loaded tour over those riding areas. The hub/wheel should be honored under a replacement program if it's fairly new with those miles.
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Old 10-18-21, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Thruhiker View Post
2 does any one have any experience with Velo Orange Customer service im still waiting for a reply. (Its the weekend so I hope by Monday to hear from them) the hub only has 3683 miles on it. Other then a defect I don't know what the cause could be. Wheel was laced up using a tensionmeter. Any thoughts on why this happened?
A. Sh17 happens. Agree with other posters, this looks like a material problem in the hub, probably should be a warranty claim.

B. May as well plan on calling VO as soon as they open. You'll have to talk to them on the phone before you're done.

C. Did you bring your tensiometer with you to rebuild the wheel if you get a new hub? Or can you buy a new wheel from a local shop, check the tension and stress-relieve the new wheel, ride on, and fix the original when you get home?
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Old 10-18-21, 08:54 AM
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First thing this morning I received an email from VO and they put a new hub in the mail. What a great company! I'm still riding with the rim missing 2 spokes. There is only a slight wobble and I'm careful not to do any more damage to it. My touring route went from DC to New York up around Maine and then down the East Coast Greenway. The Greenway passes within 100 miles of my town. I was planning to detour to visit my parents so I had the hub mailed there. That's also where all my bike tools are. When I committed to taking this tour I did not renew my rental agreement and I sold my vehicles. So everything I own is in my parents basement. I'll rebuild the wheel there and continue south to Florida. Thanks every one for the replies.
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Old 10-18-21, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by icemilkcoffee View Post
Actially I think 36 holes made things worse in this case. Because the holes are closer together and there is less metal between holes. See how it tore through the metal between two adjacent holes.
Back in the olden days of 36hole rims, people probably used lower spoke tension- mainly because the rims were not as strong as they are today. Also a lot of those hubs were large flange hubs, which had more material between holes.
Small flange, high tension and lots of holes= trouble.
Have to admit, I've wondered why large flanges went out of fashion; I just cannot remember when I last saw one. I guess with very high spoke tensions it would give you a bit of a harsh ride. On the other hand, lot's of folk seem to want very stiff wheels and a bigger flange seems like it should provide that. I suppose, like so much these days, it comes down to weight.
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Old 10-18-21, 09:27 AM
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Fantastic, good on them for trying to make it right. Did they ask for the old hub at some point, to look at it?
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Old 10-18-21, 10:25 AM
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No they did not ask for the old one back. Also to clarify, my tour is 8 months from being over so quitting now is not an option. I would do whatever needed to be done to continue. VO replacing the hub is the cheapest course of action and at this point cheap is more important then time. If I lose 10 days over this it's not a big deal.
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Old 10-18-21, 11:04 AM
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A related story. I claim no "message" other than hub flange issues can happen.

My first "real" fix gear hub; quality with lockring, was a Campagnolo track hub. High flange. I picked it up 1982 at a bike shop. Laced it 4X to a 400 gram tubular rim with light Robergel zinc plated spokes as commuter wheels. All year usage and not babied at all. But the same use that the previous mediocre French hubs (not fix gear hubs though ridden fixed) had been through. This Campy hub was not new but had no marks whatsoever on it. (I think it had been laced up, perhaps raced on the local velodrome.) Several years later, I ran into the same truing issue and found nearly the same cracks as the OP. Took it back to the shop. They sent it to Campy who sent back a brand new hub. A few years later, this hub broke the same way. Campy sent me a second replacement but I stopped using them and think I gave it away.

So in over 200,000 miles of riding, 70,000 of which has been on those beater commuter fix gears, I've broken 4 hub flanges. Two broke long ago before I could lace wheels and get tensions anywhere near close. Those hubs was very used, cheap and with unknown histories. And two fully race quality Campagnolo NR hubs. By contrast, I have a couple of Campy Tipo hubs with many decades and many tens of thousands of miles that just keep rolling along. (And have never seen a "pretty" bike since I got them used in the very early '80s. I treat them like Phil Woods; ie hubs that can be used anywhere and go through anything.)
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Old 10-18-21, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Thruhiker View Post
First thing this morning I received an email from VO and they put a new hub in the mail. .
They did you a solid, Good for them, good for you.

20-ish years ago, a couple friends had a hub fail while on a around-USA tour. Since they were on a tandem, the wheel and hub weren't going to available close by. The hub company (White Industries, IIRC) shipped them an entire wheel overnight and they were able to finish their tour.
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