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24h vs 28h vs 32h?

Old 10-16-21, 12:25 PM
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24h vs 28h vs 32h?

can i get some wheel builders to chime in?

i have a wheelset built with beautiful onyx hubs and h plus son hydra rims. they were built for me by my lbs. i had them built up as 24h (for no particular reason). all my hand built wheels previously had been 32h. they're "gravel" wheels and see single track and dirt roads. i weigh about 170lbs on a good day, fwiw.

anyway, i crashed with them a while back--hit a bowling ball sized rock at low speed. i was really surprised how bad the wheel got. it got an unfixable flat spot and couldn't be trued. i have never had that happen from a minor crash before. usually the rim just dents and can be trued fine.

so... i emailed onyx and they said for 25 percent the cost of my hubs they would swap the internals to a new shell. so, i could rebuild these wheels as 28h or 32h.

does anyone have an opinion on whether or not this is worth the time, money and effort? just rebuilding the front hub with a new 24h would be a lot cheaper. ultimately i would like to be able to trust these wheels with some light touring and bikepacking (single day).

​​
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Old 10-16-21, 12:39 PM
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Questions about whether something is "worth" time, money, and effort can really only be answered by you. A 28- or 32-spoke wheel will be stronger and more easily trued, so depending on how long it takes and how much it costs, rebuilding your hub might be a good idea. But then you'll need new rims, spokes, and a build, so ...

Maybe think about buying an inexpensive set of 32-spoke wheels for those longer touring rides, and reserve the 24s for more predictable conditions?
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Old 10-16-21, 12:41 PM
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If you’re still running the 24 in the rear, I would say just get the front 24 spoke wheel rebuilt in the same configuration. It would seem a bit odd to have a higher spoke count wheel in the front. With that being said, a set of gravel wheels 24f/24r for a 170# person might be pushing it a bit. What kind of spokes did the you use originally?

I weigh ~#193 and have been racking up road miles on a hand built 700c tubeless road wheelset with 24 spokes front (2 cross, DT Swiss revolution J-bend spokes with aluminum spoke nipples) and 28 rear (3 cross, DT Swiss Revolution J-Bend spokes with same aluminum spoke nipples). I have had creaking issues with the lightweight spokes on the rear wheel and my LBS wheelbuilder keeps raising the spoke tension. I had the wheels in the shop to be tweaked three times in the past 3 weeks due to the spirit crushing pinging noise. I will be test riding again tomorrow and really hope to hear an absence of stressful noises to,orrow.

As for the H-Son+ rim collapsing or failing in some way due to the rock, I’m not sure what to say since I never used this brand of rim. If they happen to make a similar rim (in the drilling you need) but with a more rigid tall aero profile, perhaps that option would be more stout.
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Old 10-16-21, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by masi61 View Post
If you’re still running the 24 in the rear, I would say just get the front 24 spoke wheel rebuilt in the same configuration. It would seem a bit odd to have a higher spoke count wheel in the front. With that being said, a set of gravel wheels 24f/24r for a 170# person might be pushing it a bit. What kind of spokes did the you use originally?

I weigh ~#193 and have been racking up road miles on a hand built 700c tubeless road wheelset with 24 spokes front (2 cross, DT Swiss revolution J-bend spokes with aluminum spoke nipples) and 28 rear (3 cross, DT Swiss Revolution J-Bend spokes with same aluminum spoke nipples). I have had creaking issues with the lightweight spokes on the rear wheel and my LBS wheelbuilder keeps raising the spoke tension. I had the wheels in the shop to be tweaked three times in the past 3 weeks due to the spirit crushing pinging noise. I will be test riding again tomorrow and really hope to hear an absence of stressful noises to,orrow.

As for the H-Son+ rim collapsing or failing in some way due to the rock, I’m not sure what to say since I never used this brand of rim. If they happen to make a similar rim (in the drilling you need) but with a more rigid tall aero profile, perhaps that option would be more stout.
hi. the plan would be to swap both shells, actually. do you have any opinions on the dif in strength between 24h and 28h, and 28h and 32h? i have read that there's a big jump in strength when jumping from 24 to 28.
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Old 10-16-21, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Rolla View Post
Questions about whether something is "worth" time, money, and effort can really only be answered by you. A 28- or 32-spoke wheel will be stronger and more easily trued, so depending on how long it takes and how much it costs, rebuilding your hub might be a good idea. But then you'll need new rims, spokes, and a build, so ...

Maybe think about buying an inexpensive set of 32-spoke wheels for those longer touring rides, and reserve the 24s for more predictable conditions?
hi. thx for the reply. i have a set of chinese "nextie" brand carbon 24h rims with hope road hubs already. so, i thought that rebuilding the onyx set to be my "off road" wheels would make sense.
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Old 10-16-21, 01:08 PM
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I weight about 245# and have been riding on the roads on 20h wheels (Botrager Race XXX, and Paradigm). I hit a pothole and the rim is a little wonky (the seam is very slighlty sprung I think). I'm riding them, and don't notice any problems, but.. My 36h Campy Record wheels hit lots of potholes and never had an issue.

It's been over 45 years since I saw 170# so others will chime in but I have to hink that if you're riding a lot in gravel and broke a wheel already a move up to 28. I personally will build my next pair of wheels 28/36. Read Sheldon Brown's assessment here. There has been some development in materials, but for alloy rims, cutting down the number of spokes requires a stiffer rim and so you end up not saving any weight and having a weaker wheel.

Would they replace both shells so that you could go 28/36 or 28/32?

My two cents....
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Old 10-16-21, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by showlow View Post
can i get some wheel builders to chime in?

i have a wheelset built with beautiful onyx hubs and h plus son hydra rims. they were built for me by my lbs. i had them built up as 24h (for no particular reason). all my hand built wheels previously had been 32h. they're "gravel" wheels and see single track and dirt roads. i weigh about 170lbs on a good day, fwiw.

anyway, i crashed with them a while back--hit a bowling ball sized rock at low speed. i was really surprised how bad the wheel got. it got an unfixable flat spot and couldn't be trued. i have never had that happen from a minor crash before. usually the rim just dents and can be trued fine.

so... i emailed onyx and they said for 25 percent the cost of my hubs they would swap the internals to a new shell. so, i could rebuild these wheels as 28h or 32h.

does anyone have an opinion on whether or not this is worth the time, money and effort? just rebuilding the front hub with a new 24h would be a lot cheaper. ultimately i would like to be able to trust these wheels with some light touring and bikepacking (single day).

​​
I have the same rims, the last set of aluminum ones I will ever own. I dented one on a relatively small pothole. Carbon rims are much, much stronger and far less likely to be damaged by similar debris. The number of spokes has no bearing on the dented or flat spotted rim. I have a carbon wheel that only has two carbon spokes and it is true as day one despite lots of night riding on bad roads. 200 lb rider 40 pound bike with gear.

No. I would not waste the money rebuilding with an alum rim
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Old 10-16-21, 03:09 PM
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If you were having issues with spoke failure, or possibly lateral stiffness, I think there'd be an argument for increasing spoke count, but your rim would likely have bent in this scenario regardless of spoke count.
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Old 10-16-21, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
I have the same rims, the last set of aluminum ones I will ever own. I dented one on a relatively small pothole. Carbon rims are much, much stronger and far less likely to be damaged by similar debris. The number of spokes has no bearing on the dented or flat spotted rim. I have a carbon wheel that only has two carbon spokes and it is true as day one despite lots of night riding on bad roads. 200 lb rider 40 pound bike with gear.

No. I would not waste the money rebuilding with an alum rim
thanks for chiming in. i have some 24h carbon rims on my other wheels and i am not easy on them at all and like you said they never need to be trued. my only concern would be using carbon for back road touring or light bikepacking. seems like if they were to fail it would be catastrophic.

can you recommend any particular carbon component rims that aren't $$$ and are actually avail?
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Old 10-16-21, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by cpach View Post
If you were having issues with spoke failure, or possibly lateral stiffness, I think there'd be an argument for increasing spoke count, but your rim would likely have bent in this scenario regardless of spoke count.
no spoke failures. just lots of truing and then one minor crash (granted a head on with a big rock) caused it to go flat in one spot and it couldn't be trued completely.
​​
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Old 10-16-21, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by WizardOfBoz View Post
I weight about 245# and have been riding on the roads on 20h wheels (Botrager Race XXX, and Paradigm). I hit a pothole and the rim is a little wonky (the seam is very slighlty sprung I think). I'm riding them, and don't notice any problems, but.. My 36h Campy Record wheels hit lots of potholes and never had an issue.

It's been over 45 years since I saw 170# so others will chime in but I have to hink that if you're riding a lot in gravel and broke a wheel already a move up to 28. I personally will build my next pair of wheels 28/36. Read Sheldon Brown's assessment here. There has been some development in materials, but for alloy rims, cutting down the number of spokes requires a stiffer rim and so you end up not saving any weight and having a weaker wheel.

Would they replace both shells so that you could go 28/36 or 28/32?

My two cents....
thinking 28/28 would suffice.
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Old 10-17-21, 01:30 AM
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I don't like low spoke count wheels. I broke a spoke nipple on a light 24H single speed rear wheel this summer and it was thrown so out of true that the tire rubbed the paint off the inside of my chainstay. If I wouldn't have had a spoke wrench I would have been stranded because the tire was jammed in there. I was able to tweak the true enough to be able to limp home but even then it was wobbling so bad I was worried the rim would break. I've actually ordered a new custom tubular wheelset with Paul hubs (on backorder) that are 28/32. A few extra spokes won't make you slower. I also don't like the wheel flex of low spoke counts but I don't run stiff carbon rims.
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Old 10-17-21, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by showlow View Post
thanks for chiming in. i have some 24h carbon rims on my other wheels and i am not easy on them at all and like you said they never need to be trued. my only concern would be using carbon for back road touring or light bikepacking. seems like if they were to fail it would be catastrophic.

can you recommend any particular carbon component rims that aren't $$$ and are actually avail?
Why would you think they would break?

Danny MacaSkill thrashes and utterly abuses as set of carbon hoops.

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Old 10-17-21, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by showlow View Post
thinking 28/28 would suffice.
Agree, and the same front and back may be better for disc brake bikes. Disc brakes allow the easier use of CF rims which are stiffer and don't need 40 or 36 spoke support. I use rim brakes (that is, all the bikes I've been able to afford use rim brakes) and hence the older "more in back" paradigm suggests 28/24 or 28/36. At least that would be my preference for alloy rims.
Of course, if someone gave me a set of Shamal Mille (18/21 thick aero spoke) wheels, somehow I'd get along...
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Old 10-17-21, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by showlow View Post
can i get some wheel builders to chime in?

i have a wheelset built with beautiful onyx hubs and h plus son hydra rims. they were built for me by my lbs. i had them built up as 24h (for no particular reason). all my hand built wheels previously had been 32h. they're "gravel" wheels and see single track and dirt roads. i weigh about 170lbs on a good day, fwiw.

anyway, i crashed with them a while back--hit a bowling ball sized rock at low speed. i was really surprised how bad the wheel got. it got an unfixable flat spot and couldn't be trued. i have never had that happen from a minor crash before. usually the rim just dents and can be trued fine.

so... i emailed onyx and they said for 25 percent the cost of my hubs they would swap the internals to a new shell. so, i could rebuild these wheels as 28h or 32h.

does anyone have an opinion on whether or not this is worth the time, money and effort? just rebuilding the front hub with a new 24h would be a lot cheaper. ultimately i would like to be able to trust these wheels with some light touring and bikepacking (single day).

​​
given that this is for light touring and bike packing, in your shoes I’d just go 32h 3x and never have to worry about them again. Nothing wrong with Al rims IME, but it sounds like the ones you were using aren’t that robust - maybe try another?
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Old 10-17-21, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by showlow View Post
can you recommend any particular carbon component rims that aren't $$$ and are actually avail?
I've had good luck with Nextie rims sold direct from the company in China. They build up easy and even, have been durable, have many options, and their customer support has been surprisingly excellent.
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Old 10-17-21, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by cpach View Post
I've had good luck with Nextie rims sold direct from the company in China. They build up easy and even, have been durable, have many options, and their customer support has been surprisingly excellent.
funny enough, my other set of wheels is Nextie and yeah, they have been awesome. was thinking of using them again but still have some minor reservations about trusting carbon wheels. my Nexties are my "road" wheels and see lighter use. my reservations probably aren't rational, though.
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Old 10-17-21, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by cpach View Post
I've had good luck with Nextie rims sold direct from the company in China. They build up easy and even, have been durable, have many options, and their customer support has been surprisingly excellent.
i have a more direct question for you. iyo, would rebuilding my wheels again with 24h carbon rims (lets say nexties), result in a stronger wheel than a 28h alloy like a velocity blunt ss?
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Old 10-19-21, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by showlow View Post
i have a more direct question for you. iyo, would rebuilding my wheels again with 24h carbon rims (lets say nexties), result in a stronger wheel than a 28h alloy like a velocity blunt ss?
​​
Hard to say—the 28h blunt would probably be less likely to suffer spoke failure, the 25 nextie (especislly if ordered with a reinforced layup) would probably take rim strikes better. You could also just build something fairly light and pair it with a lightweight tire liner and do a lot to protect against rim strikes (and provide more sidewall support at low pressures.)
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Old 10-19-21, 03:56 PM
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I am a big guy 240 and would never consider anything but 32 spoke from my conservative point of view unless you are truly a high end racer, why go low spoke count?. stiff rims or not spoke count matters.

OP at 170 might be able to 28

now back to regular programming:

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Old 10-19-21, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by cpach View Post
Hard to say—the 28h blunt would probably be less likely to suffer spoke failure, the 25 nextie (especislly if ordered with a reinforced layup) would probably take rim strikes better. You could also just build something fairly light and pair it with a lightweight tire liner and do a lot to protect against rim strikes (and provide more sidewall support at low pressures.)
thanks. doing both--swapping both shells for 28/28 and getting a set of nextie rims.
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