cyccommute 

Although I know this is going to drag us way off into the weeds: And in your nice little story did you need the manual to tell you what the problem was? Did the model and brand of the derailer tell you anything that was different due to this derailer vs another one?

cxwrench

You truly do not pay attention. We've been talking about toggle link derailleurs this whole time. You know...the ones that are 'different'? That would be 9100, 8000, 5801, and 7000. NOT 9000. Maybe you want to change your last post or something? Are you so far behind you think 9000 is current? Want the link for the new/different front derailleurs? Here ya go:

The 'new' derailleur manual...

No, you failed. Again.

MLProbst

It's a SRAM Force. It's the original on a Kestrel TT bike that's a 2011 model. Thanks.

cxwrench

So it's a very normal set-up...do you want info on how to do it?

cyccommute 

Okay, I’ll admit I made that mistake. How gauche of me not to be up on the very latest that Shimano has to offer! I mean, I still run 9 speed! The horror!.

But then what are the chances that MLProbst doesn’t have the latest and greatest Shimano has to offer? (Hint: probably pretty good.)

Thanks for the link. Seems to me that the “radical” new derailer is pretty much the same set up as every other derailer that Shimano has ever offered. I’d even hazard a guess that if the mechanic screwed up and used the old method of adjusting the high limit screw in the large chainring/small cog, that the bike would still function quite well.

Again, the derailer isn’t that radical.

cyccommute 

All that damned storm und drang and that’s all you got?

MLProbst If you need info on what to do see post 13.

cxwrench

You just refuse to admit you're wrong about them being different. You argue and argue and it turns out we're not even talking about the same thing because you don't know what it is. Any sane person could see the differences. No, they're not difficult to work with but they are in no way the same as 'normal' derailleurs. Which it turns out the OP has. Why don't you just admit you're a 'good' mechanic but aren't totally up to date but you're willing to learn? It's not that bad, try it some time.
If you set up a toggle link derailleur like you would a normal derailleur I'd have to adjust probably 3 of the 4 usual adjustments. Ask me how I know.

cyccommute 

I never said I was up to date. I have said numerous times that I haven’t worked on those types. But I’m good enough at know how a derailer works and I have “read the manual”. I see nothing in the manual that makes them radically different.

Are you trying to say that MLProbst has one of these uber front derailers you are going on about? He has a SRAM Force that is OEM on a 2011 bike. That’s a 2011 derailer. May I remind you that you said

So which is it? Would you approach diagnosing his problem any differently than I did?

I am a good mechanic and I am very willing to learn. My job before I retired was a research scientist whose job was to learn new things constantly. That ability to observe, learn, and adapt…developed over 40 years of work…is what makes me a good mechanic. I’m certain that if I do happen to see a new Shimano or SRAM derailer, that I would be able to adjust it and send a client out the door of the co-op happy with how their bike works.

On the other hand, you have demonstrated that your need to know which derailer MLProbst was absolutely unimportant.

cxwrench

Yes, in my very first post I asked what kind of derailleur he had because it DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE. None of us knew til a couple hours ago that he has a normal derailleur. If had said he had a new Shimano derailleur that would have an obvious impact on what advice I'd give. You'd have to be beyond stubborn and pretty oblivious to deny that. Do you have a nifty crystal ball that tells you stuff like that before people actually post it? You wouldn't tell this guy to adjust an Ultegra 8000 derailleur the same way you'd tell him how to adjust a 2011 Force derailleur, would you?

3alarmer 

cyccommute 

What you seem to be missing is that, in the end, if DIDN’T MAKE A DIFFERENCE…if we are going to get into shouting.

Let’s look at the way that I approached the problem. I assumed, from the beginning, that a front derailer is a front derailer. They all share the same elements and work the same general way. All front derailers require alignment and setting of limit screws. Even the new fangled share those same elements. They may get to them is a slightly different way but they are still similar. Cable tension is also important and is the cause of the vast majority of problems. I’m not saying that the cable is the issue in this case but it can’t be ruled out entirely.

Starting from there, the suggestions I made in post 13 are good, solid places to start…even for new fangled derailers…based on the information given. Could you not have given the same suggestions with a proviso of something along the lines of “this may no apply to Shimano and SRAM model X”?

Honestly, you haven’t given any advice. You did say “start from scratch” based on the Park Tools link but you never mentioned any issues with a new generation derailer being something to watch for. You should also consider that the Park Tool “start from scratch” doesn’t apply to your ideas that the new generation derailer is “like no other derailer”. There is also a higher probability that the derailer is an old one than a new one just because there are millions of the former for everyone of the latter.

No. But I have a lot of experience and I pay attention. And, contrary to what you and others seem to believe, I actually do learn things. I’m also really good at distilling what I learn into something that I can teach to others. Those 15,000 bikes I’ve worked on have had a person attached to them each and every time I see them. I have to teach the person how to do to the bike what I can do to the bike because they are technically supposed to work on their own bikes.

For the most part, yes because the issues described are related to the changing the size of the chainring and not related to derailer set up.

cyccommute 

So are you saying that my advice in the end was incorrect?

prj71

A lot of them. You need to drop your arrogance. Here is a page from the Shimano XT rear derailleur manual.

MLProbst

Yes, but no need to spend a bunch of your time. I've gotten other replies and links sent to me. I'm going to give it another shot this weekend. Thanks.

cxwrench

You need to pay attention to what's being discussed. Cyco and I were having another one of our 'chats' and it was ONLY about the Shimano toggle link road front derailleurs. Go back through the thread and actually read the posts.

3alarmer 

...as God is my witness, I would never, ever, ever, ever presume to tell you you were incorrect, Stewart. If being correct were a religion, you would be its high priest.

prj71

I was paying attention and that's not what you said. Again...quit being arrogant. You're not some sort of bike mechanic god.

cxwrench

Maybe this will help.

MLProbst

You guys may be getting tired of hearing about my front derailleur, but this may be another opportunity to renew your shouting match. I got the shifting problem fixed. The derailleur mounts to a bracket that mounts to the frame. The two bolts that secure the mounting bracket are hidden from view when the derailleur is in place. After much frustration, I removed the derailleur and found the two screws were slightly loose. So when I would position the derailleur, my first shift from small to big ring would pull the derailleur out of alignment. After tightening the two screws, I now have the derailleur shifting.
New problem, I can't seem to get rid of chain rub in big ring/small cog combination. If I adjust the inner limit enough to stop the rub, it won't shift to the small ring. If I adjust inner limit the minimum needed to shift the small ring, the chain rubs. I notice that when I shift to the big ring, the derailleur moves out more than enough (probably at least 1 mm) clear of the chain, but when I release the shifting mechanism, the derailleur moves in about 2 mm or so and the chain rubs. I know this is supposed to be a really easy adjustment. I have done this successfully on my other TT bike and my mountain bike, but I just seem to be stuck w/ the Kestrel TT bike. Again, the front derailleur is a Sram Force that's at least 10 years old...not one of the newer models one of you asked about previously. Thanks in advance.

3alarmer 

...good luck. Whatever you do, DON'T TOUCH THE LIMIT SCREWS !!!!

cxwrench

So you're derailleur is behaving as if the cable is loose, right? It moves out and then falls back? Hmmmmm...what might fix that? Maybe more cable 'tension' (it isn't really tension, you need to shorten the cable relative to the housing) would do that.

cyccommute 

Hmmm. Not ignoring again, huh?

cyccommute 

As I suspected…just sayin’

The peanut gallery notwithstanding: Quit messing with the limit screws! That’s not the problem. The inner limit screw limits how far inboard the derailer moves when there is no tension on the cable. The outer limit screw limits how far outboard the derailer can move when the cable is under tension. When the chain is on the large ring and in the small cog (i.e. high gear), the inner limit screw has no effect on the derailer. The screw for both limit screws hit a little arm and, in the higher gears, that arm is a few millimeters away from the end of the screw.

And, yes, for the peanut gallery: Don’t touch the limit screws.

I notice that when I shift to the big ring, the derailleur moves out more than enough (probably at least 1 mm) clear of the chain, but when I release the shifting mechanism, the derailleur moves in about 2 mm or so and the chain rubs. I know this is supposed to be a really easy adjustment. I have done this successfully on my other TT bike and my mountain bike, but I just seem to be stuck w/ the Kestrel TT bike. Again, the front derailleur is a Sram Force that's at least 10 years old...not one of the newer models one of you asked about previously. Thanks in advance.[/QUOTE]

There’s your problem. It’s a cable issue. More specifically, it’s a cable tension issue. Your cable isn’t tight enough in the lowest gear. The shifter can’t move the front derailer far enough out to get the derailer plate clear of the chain. The description of the derailer settling back after shifting is the way that you can know that this is a cable issue rather than a limit screw issue. Tighten the cable with a barrel adjuster if you have one or by loosening the anchor bolt on the derailer and pulling the cable tighter before tightening the anchor cable bolt.

Once you get the cable issue straightened out, set the limit screws properly and then leave them alone! They don’t need adjustment once set.

cyccommute 

A perfect opportunity to be helpful but no, you just are only here to troll.


By the way, MLProbst problem isn’t a limit screw problem. Never was.

Ghazmh

Wow, thats a lot to sift through. I have been relying on the Park videos for adjusting my Shimano Derailleurs after replacing the cables. I have watched assorted YouTube videos when I wanted to watch someone adjusting some else adjust a Force CX1 derailleur. I know there are idiosyncrasies and nuances to each derailleur as well as everything in life. Now this makes me wonder if I am doing something wrong.