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Dura Ace wheels: The fight against tight tires, and unseated beads?

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Dura Ace wheels: The fight against tight tires, and unseated beads?

Old 11-03-21, 10:13 PM
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Dura Ace wheels: The fight against tight tires, and unseated beads?

Some of you may have seen my ask about these wheels in the Road forum when I first got the bike… but now that we’re almost done with the rebuild I’m running into some issues.

I believe they are Dura Ace WH-7700 wheels. They’re on a 2001 model bike so I don’t know what year they’re from exactly. Here’s them after getting the bike home



First, it was so hard to get the original tires off we had to cut them off. Putting new ones on wasn’t any easier - I had to use a combination of big ol’ Pedro’s tire levers and the Koolstop tire prybar tool thing to get them on this evening. Not exactly the kind of thing that’s going to be doable when fixing a flat in the wild…

First question: what’s the deal with the fight to get tires on? Why is it so hard? Months ago I had a similar problem with a classic set of Mavics and turned out thin rim tape helped solve that. Didn’t help here.

2nd question: are these wheels ok to fit a 700x28 tire & tube? When putting the tube in there was basically no extra room around the valve stem - so much so that it appears as though the bead for the new tire isn’t seating completely. There is a noticeable wobble. It only appeared to fit more into the groove when we started putting air in it.
See the red circled area in the pic below:



In addition, the bulging part around the valve stem was sticking out enough to allow the tire to rub on the underside of the brake caliper. I was able to make it work a little better by adjusting the entire brake position by loosening it from the frame bolt. It doesn’t rub anymore but the bulge is obviously still there.

I can’t upload a video here so here’s a link to it so you can see:
https://flic.kr/p/2mGurT7

Lastly, is it ok to ride on the tire like this? I assume it’d blow out.
A similar issue occurred with the front tire but it was less pronounced.

Also, I didn’t notice when I bought them but the bike shop gave me smooth valve stem tubes. What is the point of these? I think without the threads the chuck for the floor pump keeps popping off when the pressure is high enough.

I’m pretty close to just selling these wheels and buying a modern 9 speed wheel set for him that should be way less hassle…..?
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Old 11-04-21, 01:44 AM
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I have some 90's era Mavic CPX14's, they're also aluminum aero rims. It must be something about aluminum aero because the tires are hard to mount on those as well. And the same thing with the aluminum HED disc rims on my newest bike. I've never had an issue with regular box rims.

What size tube do you have? Looks like yours may be pretty big with the tire bulging like that. For a 28mm tire I would use a 20-25 size tube. I always go a size smaller because it's easier to install and you have a reduced chance of pinch flatting. And I don't think I would have rolled the dice and tried to stuff a 28mm tire in an old CAAD4 frame. Looks too tight at the caliper to me.

You could try getting some small latex tubes with threaded stems. I don't like smooth ones for the reason you described.
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Old 11-04-21, 08:28 AM
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When trying to remove the tire, if you have to break the bead from the rim, then only break it off one side. You don't want both sides competing for that small section of rim space that gives you the narrowest radius to the hub. If a tubed tire, then even a tube can compete for that space and keep pushing the bead away to the areas of larger radius to the hub. So make certain that the valve is open or removed if you have issues.

It's the same thing putting tires on. If that first side went on easily enough then that is an indication that the other side should go on almost as easily. If it doesn't, then you simply have something preventing you from getting and keeping the bead seat of the side you are trying to get on from staying in that area of smaller radius to the hub. Before tire mounting became simple for me, I was pinching both sides of the tire to the center. Now I just push the side I'm putting on to the center of the rim and letting that push the other bead to it's bead seat and getting it out of the way.

Curious about the picture though... the brakes look like they are really opened up but there is only a normal amount of clearance to the pad and rim. How wide are those rims?
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Old 11-04-21, 08:59 AM
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Personal bias here, but I wouldn't run that type of wheel on my bike. I'd only want wheels that I can maintain readily, and in my experience those types of sparse or oddly strung wheels are difficult to true. Not impossible, but way more difficulty than I want to deal with. Others may shout me down on this, and that's okay. For me, that's a no, dog.
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Old 11-04-21, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by the sci guy View Post
First question: whatís the deal with the fight to get tires on? Why is it so hard? Months ago I had a similar problem with a classic set of Mavics and turned out thin rim tape helped solve that. Didnít help here.
There are valid reasons for tires to have a tight fit to the rim, one being that it will stay in place if you happen to flat while screaming down a hill. That's preferable to it flopping off and catching on a chainstay and locking the wheel.

2nd question: are these wheels ok to fit a 700x28 tire & tube? When putting the tube in there was basically no extra room around the valve stem - so much so that it appears as though the bead for the new tire isnít seating completely. There is a noticeable wobble. It only appeared to fit more into the groove when we started putting air in it.

In addition, the bulging part around the valve stem was sticking out enough to allow the tire to rub on the underside of the brake caliper. I was able to make it work a little better by adjusting the entire brake position by loosening it from the frame bolt. It doesnít rub anymore but the bulge is obviously still there.
Did you push the valve up into the rim right after mounting the second bead? It's important to do that before you bring the tire up to pressure for just this reason.
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Old 11-04-21, 01:49 PM
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the tubes we put in are 700x25-32.
There is plenty of tire clearance for 28s in the frame. There's also plenty of clearance under the front brake caliper - not sure why it's so tight in the rear - bulge notwithstanding.

We had to use the koolstop tire tool to even get the 1st bead onto the rim, before we even put the tube in and tried to seat the other side.

ThermionicScott I'm not sure what you mean when you ask pushing the valve up into the rim. To me, that says push the valve against the inside of the rim, forcing the stem to stick out as much as possible. Or do you instead mean push the tube backwards up into the tire thereby making more room for the bead to come in adjacent?

Would I be better off just getting a decent set of Mavics for $250 and selling these and be done with it and save myself and my friend any further headaches? How much would these fetch these days?
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Old 11-04-21, 03:40 PM
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First off, the post about pushing the valve was probably suggesting pushing the valve away from the from the rim so that the thicker portion of the tube around the valve would be well within the tire and not interfering with the bead seating.

Further, the tire is not a good match for the wheel and frame. The wheel is intended as a racing setup and since somewhat old was meant for use with thinner tires, 20-23mm was common, even 25mm was considered big for racing. And those tires were with very little, if any type of thread pattern in the rubber. Also the inner width of the rim is probably quite narrow, which makes the tire profile 'taller', further causing the tire/brake clearance issue. Additionally, the rims have a very shallow channel area to give you clearance to mount a tight tire. As I had stated in your old thread, you need to go as thin as possible for rim tape. Don't know what you're currently using and if there are thinner options but this is your only option if you're going to try to use this tire. Remember, if you can go a few mils thinner, it is all the way around the rim so a couple of mils makes a big difference. Use what you learned the last time a don't hesitate on investigating thinner options.

The frame is also designed for smaller tires. The brake mounting point are quite low as evidenced by the fact that you have the brake pad mounted quite high in the slot of the brake arm. Surprised that the tire even cleared the mounting point on the brake bridge.

Don't know the value of the current wheel. These have its limitations and replacement part issues. I'd use them but most are probably only interested in wider carbon wheels.
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Old 11-04-21, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by KCT1986 View Post
First off, the post about pushing the valve was probably suggesting pushing the valve away from the from the rim so that the thicker portion of the tube around the valve would be well within the tire and not interfering with the bead seating.

Further, the tire is not a good match for the wheel and frame. The wheel is intended as a racing setup and since somewhat old was meant for use with thinner tires, 20-23mm was common, even 25mm was considered big for racing. And those tires were with very little, if any type of thread pattern in the rubber. Also the inner width of the rim is probably quite narrow, which makes the tire profile 'taller', further causing the tire/brake clearance issue. Additionally, the rims have a very shallow channel area to give you clearance to mount a tight tire. As I had stated in your old thread, you need to go as thin as possible for rim tape. Don't know what you're currently using and if there are thinner options but this is your only option if you're going to try to use this tire. Remember, if you can go a few mils thinner, it is all the way around the rim so a couple of mils makes a big difference. Use what you learned the last time a don't hesitate on investigating thinner options.

The frame is also designed for smaller tires. The brake mounting point are quite low as evidenced by the fact that you have the brake pad mounted quite high in the slot of the brake arm. Surprised that the tire even cleared the mounting point on the brake bridge.

Don't know the value of the current wheel. These have its limitations and replacement part issues. I'd use them but most are probably only interested in wider carbon wheels.
Thanks for the insight. The Rim tape is ROX Ultralight - does it get thinner than that? We aren't married to these wheels - they just came with the bike and were trying to save money by reusing what we thought would be a nice light wheelset.

This is all good info thought, because I also just bought this frame for myself (in my size) and I plan on doing a full conversion to modern 105 components over time. My frame has the original Mavic wheels on it though. It won't matter in the end because I'll be getting new wheels to fit a 105 hub and cassette. I'm still gonna fit 700x28 tires on that sucker though. Watch me!
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Old 11-04-21, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by the sci guy View Post
ThermionicScott I'm not sure what you mean when you ask pushing the valve up into the rim. To me, that says push the valve against the inside of the rim, forcing the stem to stick out as much as possible. Or do you instead mean push the tube backwards up into the tire thereby making more room for the bead to come in adjacent?
The latter. Push the valve up into the rim, toward the tire and see if that lets you press in the tire sidewalls so they won't ride as high in that area. Once you put some air in the tubes, the valves will push themselves back out and find their spot.

Would I be better off just getting a decent set of Mavics for $250 and selling these and be done with it and save myself and my friend any further headaches? How much would these fetch these days?
Oh, maybe. I like having equipment that's easy to deal with on the road, but look at these wheels as a good opportunity to improve your skills so that everything else will be easier.
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Old 11-04-21, 09:46 PM
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One hack to consider (if it didn't come up in one of your other threads): since you're looking at different wheels anyway, consider wide rims (at least 18mm inner) and installing Paselas that are marked 700x25C. They will puff up to the volume of a larger tire without scraping the brakes. As a side benefit, there will be less difference between the rim and tire width, so getting the tire past the brake pads when removing or installing a wheel will be easier too.
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Old 11-05-21, 01:56 AM
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Originally Posted by the sci guy View Post
the tubes we put in are 700x25-32.
There is plenty of tire clearance for 28s in the frame. There's also plenty of clearance under the front brake caliper - not sure why it's so tight in the rear - bulge notwithstanding.

We had to use the koolstop tire tool to even get the 1st bead onto the rim, before we even put the tube in and tried to seat the other side.

ThermionicScott I'm not sure what you mean when you ask pushing the valve up into the rim. To me, that says push the valve against the inside of the rim, forcing the stem to stick out as much as possible. Or do you instead mean push the tube backwards up into the tire thereby making more room for the bead to come in adjacent?

Would I be better off just getting a decent set of Mavics for $250 and selling these and be done with it and save myself and my friend any further headaches? How much would these fetch these days?
I'd personally get smaller tubes. If you're looking for new wheels for a decent price look at BWW. I wouldn't ride those Shimano's myself. if you break a spoke or nipple it will probably be thrown so out of true that you'll be stranded.

https://bicyclewheelwarehouse.com/

https://bicyclewheelwarehouse.com/Coupons.html
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Old 11-05-21, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by the sci guy View Post
Thanks for the insight. The Rim tape is ROX Ultralight - does it get thinner than that? We aren't married to these wheels - they just came with the bike and were trying to save money by reusing what we thought would be a nice light wheelset.

This is all good info thought, because I also just bought this frame for myself (in my size) and I plan on doing a full conversion to modern 105 components over time. My frame has the original Mavic wheels on it though. It won't matter in the end because I'll be getting new wheels to fit a 105 hub and cassette. I'm still gonna fit 700x28 tires on that sucker though. Watch me!
modern 105 (5800 and up) states brakes can accomodate 28mm tires (i have put 30mm tubular in no problem and 2 types of 28mm clincher in no problem) so components won't be a problem it will be frame clearance
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Old 11-05-21, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by squirtdad View Post
modern 105 (5800 and up) states brakes can accomodate 28mm tires (i have put 30mm tubular in no problem and 2 types of 28mm clincher in no problem) so components won't be a problem it will be frame clearance
Frame clearance isn't an issue. Plenty of room in the front fork and between the chainstays. The bike has the new 28s on there now, just on these wheels giving me issues. They fit fine in all the tight spaces!
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Old 11-05-21, 09:59 PM
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1. It's been alluded to already, but a hop at the valve stem implies the thick part of the tube around the stem is under the bead. When I install a tire I:
Line the pressure marking up with the valve hole.
Put one side of the tire on.
Put the tube in all the way around.
Push the stem of the tube as far outward (as if I was un-installing it) as it can do until it hits the inside of the tire.
Immediately seat the second side of the tire in this area.
Work my way 90% of the way around the tire going both directions away from the tube.
Either pop the last 10% on if it goes nicely, or make sure the side I'm installing is down in the narrow part of the tire, then pop the last 10% on.
If I'm in the mood to use the little lock ring on the stem (I'm normally not, and smooth stems don't even have them) then at this point I'll install it. Never earlier.
Inflate the tube just a bit.
Work the tire around to check for a pinched tube (which also makes tire installation much harder).
Inflate the tire the rest of the way.

If the tube is pinched under the bead anywhere or if the bead is riding up somewhere it's substantially harder to get the tire on. Folding tires when new are also a bit of a PITA. I tend to mount those with effort, then put them at max pressure for a week or two. After that they come on and off much nicer.

As for broken spokes leaving people stranded, this might be a consideration on a wilderness tour, but I haven't broken a spoke in the last 30 years, so at this point if I end up having to make a call or catch an expensive long cab/Uber ride home due to a broken spoke I'll chalk it up to the cost of doing business. I've found myself walking, but every time it's been the result of getting more flats than I have tubes on a solo (or tandem) ride and finding my patch kit glue all dried up. At a once per decade average I also chalk that up to the cost of doing business. I'm not about to start carrying a third tube, but I have considered adding glueless patches to my kit.
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Old 11-06-21, 08:40 PM
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Picked up a set of Mavic CXP Elites with 105 hubs from the shop today.
Put these Dura Ace wheels on FB Marketplace a few hours ago.

Thanks for all the input. It was helpful even if I am getting rid of these wheels in the end to save me any future headaches.
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Old 11-06-21, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by the sci guy View Post
Picked up a set of Mavic CXP Elites with 105 hubs from the shop today.
Put these Dura Ace wheels on FB Marketplace a few hours ago.

Thanks for all the input. It was helpful even if I am getting rid of these wheels in the end to save me any future headaches.
That would be a more practical choice for non-race use. Should be better to address all of your and others issues.

The older "complete system" wheels from that time period are not the best option for today.
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Old 11-08-21, 01:24 PM
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There ya go. The new rims will be a bit wider internally, which is good.
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Old 11-08-21, 02:24 PM
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I think you'll be happy with the Mavic rims on Shimano hubs. I had a set of Mavic Open Elites and Mavic Open Pros (or something like that). One set on 105 hubs and the other on Ultegra hubs. Both sets machine built. They stayed true with no fuss. I did take them to the shop and let them check and re-tension them after about the first 300 miles of use. Only one had issues that they wanted to do a little extra effort with. Then after that they've been rock solid for thousands of miles.

Wish they'd fit on my current bike I ride all the time.
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Old 11-09-21, 10:46 AM
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So youíre all gonna laugh, butÖ.

I had no issues mounting the tires on the new wheels - light years easierÖ.

but the tire rubs the rear brake bridge. I guess 28s with these wheels just arenít going to work either. I ordered 25s and am hoping that clears it.

When I get my frame, Iím going to look for a lower profile rim I guess - if such a thing exists - so I can save a few mm and run 28s. Or maybe a wider rim? These Mavics were still 15mm. Would a slightly wider rim solve the issue?

Maybe itís just because Iíve got Pasaelas? I know those run a little ďbiggerĒ, right? But they are my fav tire.
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Old 11-09-21, 10:52 AM
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Lower profile rim isn't going to change anything about how a 28 tire fits the frame. Profile is about how much profile the rim has going toward the direction of the hub. And all of that measurement changes nothing for the BSD or tire circumference.

If internal width solves anything it's only going to be in fractions of a mm maybe as much as a little over a mm.

AFAIK, tire width is actually the width of the tire casing. Not the rubber covering it. So getting a slick instead of a tire that has a lot of tread pattern might give you more toward getting a wider tire in there. The clearance if any was gained would be so little, many of us wouldn't want to think it enough for mud and road debris the tires might pick up.

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Old 11-09-21, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by the sci guy View Post
but the tire rubs the rear brake bridge. I guess 28s with these wheels just aren’t going to work either. I ordered 25s and am hoping that clears it.
You could try using around a 5mm? thick spacer between the brake and brake bridge. The brake being perpendicular to the bridge will still move outward in the same plane but the tire will be curving downward away from the caliper. Try stacking some washers to determine what thickness spacer works and then get a solid spacer. Example here but not necessarily the proper size for your bike. M5 M6 M8 Aluminum Alloy Bushing Gasket Round Sleeve Unthreaded Spacers Standoff | eBay

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Old 11-09-21, 11:29 AM
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Paselas are pretty "round", so I wouldn't expect to get a lot more clearance from a tire of the exact same width with a thinner tread. Maybe a 28mm Gravelking slick might do it? They have a pretty thin tread on top of that tougher casing.

I think that frame just wasn't meant to run fat rubber. It's the same struggle I had with my Bianchi Eros. I ran ~29mm tires for a few years, but they grazed the underside of the short-reach brake calipers until I filed off some material, and the tire had to be mostly deflated to get the wheel in and out of the brakes. 28mm Paselas are doable, but I still have to deflate the tire a little to get a wheel in or out.

I suggested wide rims and 25mm tires earlier because that's the route I intend to go once these rims wear out, or if I get another skinny-tire bike with the same issue.
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Old 11-09-21, 03:27 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by Crankycrank View Post
You could try using around a 5mm? thick spacer between the brake and brake bridge. The brake being perpendicular to the bridge will still move outward in the same plane but the tire will be curving downward away from the caliper. Try stacking some washers to determine what thickness spacer works and then get a solid spacer. Example here but not necessarily the proper size for your bike. M5 M6 M8 Aluminum Alloy Bushing Gasket Round Sleeve Unthreaded Spacers Standoff | eBay
It's not rubbing against the underside of the caliper- it's rubbing on the actual part of the frame; the crossbar between the seat stays that the brake mounts on.
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Old 11-09-21, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ThermionicScott View Post
Paselas are pretty "round", so I wouldn't expect to get a lot more clearance from a tire of the exact same width with a thinner tread. Maybe a 28mm Gravelking slick might do it? They have a pretty thin tread on top of that tougher casing.

I think that frame just wasn't meant to run fat rubber. It's the same struggle I had with my Bianchi Eros. I ran ~29mm tires for a few years, but they grazed the underside of the short-reach brake calipers until I filed off some material, and the tire had to be mostly deflated to get the wheel in and out of the brakes. 28mm Paselas are doable, but I still have to deflate the tire a little to get a wheel in or out.

I suggested wide rims and 25mm tires earlier because that's the route I intend to go once these rims wear out, or if I get another skinny-tire bike with the same issue.
Yeah I'll see how the 700x25s fit on these Mavics - I'm hoping the smaller width lets the tire sit down just enough. It's crazy though because there is plenty of room behind the BB (the chainstays have that cut-out area that looks like it's designed for a nice sized tire). And the front fork is like gimmme alllll your wide tiress!!!!
What width rim do you suggest?
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Old 11-09-21, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
Lower profile rim isn't going to change anything about how a 28 tire fits the frame. Profile is about how much profile the rim has going toward the direction of the hub. And all of that measurement changes nothing for the BSD or tire circumference.

If internal width solves anything it's only going to be in fractions of a mm maybe as much as a little over a mm.

AFAIK, tire width is actually the width of the tire casing. Not the rubber covering it. So getting a slick instead of a tire that has a lot of tread pattern might give you more toward getting a wider tire in there. The clearance if any was gained would be so little, many of us wouldn't want to think it enough for mud and road debris the tires might pick up.
I guess a lower profile won't matter, you're right, i wasn't thinking about it the right way, because a 700c wheel is a 700c wheel.
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