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Spoke nipples unscrew on 32h FW rebuild

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Spoke nipples unscrew on 32h FW rebuild

Old 01-16-22, 11:45 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by frogman View Post
How many co-ops do you know about in nothern California ? Speak for your own area. Our co-ops build and rebuild wheels and the ones we get in to fix are terrible.
Every co-op Iíve been to has such an (over)abundance of wheels that there is no need to build or even rebuild wheels. Thereís also never enough volunteers with the proper skills nor time to do wheel builds. Thereís too many other things that need to be done in a co-op to spend the time building wheels.

On the other hand, I see a whole lot of OEM wheels that are poorly tensioned and even out of dish which is something that should have been checked at a bike shop as part of the preparation process before sale. I fix thoseÖwhen I have time, which isnít often.
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Old 01-16-22, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
Based upon what? This was your first wheel build by your own admission and you had spoke nipples unscrew. If you read just a little bit about building wheels, youíll find nearly universal suggestions on using a spoke preparation of some kind. Even back in the day, people used linseed oil for the same purpose. Modern spoke preps are easier to use as they dry faster.
Let me clarify. I mean that I believe lubricants for prepping a build are good but I do not think the kind of lubricant, for example, teflon based like TriFlo or silicon based really make much difference. I think using a prepping lubricant will help.
HTH, Joe
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Old 01-16-22, 12:15 PM
  #28  
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I mostly use oil when building wheels, but am not opposed to other things like linseed oil, Spoke Prep, beeswax, or blue/purple Loctite. Belt and suspenders.

It's not uncommon for my wheel builds to get interrupted by something else, some don't get "done-done" for a couple of days, so I tend not to use anything that would harden soon after applying.
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Old 01-16-22, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
Every co-op I’ve been to has such an (over)abundance of wheels that there is no need to build or even rebuild wheels. There’s also never enough volunteers with the proper skills nor time to do wheel builds. There’s too many other things that need to be done in a co-op to spend the time building wheels.

On the other hand, I see a whole lot of OEM wheels that are poorly tensioned and even out of dish which is something that should have been checked at a bike shop as part of the preparation process before sale. I fix those…when I have time, which isn’t often.
You need to characterize your co-op statements to indicate just Colorado. Just because it is that way in your area doesn't mean it applies everywhere else. Our co-ops are managed and operate differently here in CA. They align and build wheels although I can't say they do a very good job. Enough said on that. I agree on the OEM wheels that come in poorly tensioned, etc. I would say about 25% of the new bike builds from Trek and others we need to have the wheels tweaked. A new bike doesn't go to the customer untilit is completely gone over and we do a test ride. I enjoy the test rides. The new carbon fiber offerings are awesome ! It sometimes takes me a tad longer to thoroughly test them
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Old 01-16-22, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by frogman View Post
You need to characterize your co-op statements to indicate just Colorado. Just because it is that way in your area doesn't mean it applies everywhere else. Our co-ops are managed and operate differently here in CA. They align and build wheels although I can't say they do a very good job.
All of them? Every co-op in California builds wheels? Co-ops are pretty much the same everywhere. They are usually non-profit organizations with volunteers and run on a shoestring. You may have some around you that build wheels but I donít find that very believable.
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Old 01-16-22, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
All of them? Every co-op in California builds wheels? Co-ops are pretty much the same everywhere. They are usually non-profit organizations with volunteers and run on a shoestring. You may have some around you that build wheels but I don’t find that very believable.

You seem to assume everything is the same as your area. I noticd that in many of your posts. Yes things are different here.
You can choose to believe or not, I don't care. Yes many of our co-ops do wheels too. You carry on like you are the only one that is familiar with co-ops. I find most of your posts patronizing. Were not all out to diminish your bike BF stature.
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Old 01-17-22, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by frogman View Post
You seem to assume everything is the same as your area. I noticd that in many of your posts.
I ďassumeĒ that because it is mostly true. I have traveled a lot by bicycle or with a bicycle in the US. Iíve been to many bike shops and co-ops across in the US. They are all very, very similar. Bike shops will offer new bikes and tend to not work on older bikes. Co-ops are nonprofit, bare bones, volunteer oriented operations that deal in old bikes and old bike parts while depending on donations of bicycles, equipment, money, and time from the community. They also tend to serve clientele that is probably not going to drop $500 or more on a set of hand built wheels.

Retail shops where someone might spend that kind of money for a set of hand build wheels donít usually build wheels either. 40 years ago probably half the mechanics in shops knew how to build wheels. Today, Iíd put it at 1 in 10 if that. Thereís just no money in wheel building.

As to building wheels, I really doubt that even if a co-op dealt in building wheels, they would build enough for them to be a notable problem in a retail bike shop. On the other hand, if they did build enough of them to be a notable problem in retail bike shops, people would stop buying them which means a co-op would quit building and selling them.
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Old 01-17-22, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
Bike shops will offer new bikes and tend to not work on older bikes.
Since when? What do you consider 'older'?
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Old 01-17-22, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
I “assume” that because it is mostly true. I have traveled a lot by bicycle or with a bicycle in the US. I’ve been to many bike shops and co-ops across in the US. They are all very, very similar. Bike shops will offer new bikes and tend to not work on older bikes. Co-ops are nonprofit, bare bones, volunteer oriented operations that deal in old bikes and old bike parts while depending on donations of bicycles, equipment, money, and time from the community. They also tend to serve clientele that is probably not going to drop $500 or more on a set of hand built wheels.

Retail shops where someone might spend that kind of money for a set of hand build wheels don’t usually build wheels either. 40 years ago probably half the mechanics in shops knew how to build wheels. Today, I’d put it at 1 in 10 if that. There’s just no money in wheel building.

As to building wheels, I really doubt that even if a co-op dealt in building wheels, they would build enough for them to be a notable problem in a retail bike shop. On the other hand, if they did build enough of them to be a notable problem in retail bike shops, people would stop buying them which means a co-op would quit building and selling them.
Wow, you know everything about shops all across the USA ! hahaha
You can quit trying to convince us that everything is as your assumptions indicate and you keep repeating yourself. A nice smoke screen but the fact remains it is different in CA than in CO. :-) When you find yourself down in a hole its time to quit digging. Our shop has two mechanics that formerly worked in co-ops and we trained to be first class mechanics. And yes they built wheels. We all are enjoying your crazy comments.
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Old 01-17-22, 01:07 PM
  #35  
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I've never seen or heard of a bicycle coop.

I use linseed oil on round spoke threads or just nothing on aero flat spokes
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Old 01-17-22, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
I've never seen or heard of a bicycle coop.

I use linseed oil on round spoke threads or just nothing on aero flat spokes
What difference does the shape of the spoke make?
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Old 01-17-22, 10:06 PM
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As to OP's question, that that loosening is really wierd, Could be not enough tension or using lube on the spoke threads, not on the nipple wheel interface.

Another possibility is that the tire pressure is too high, causing flexing and loosening of spokes. I got this information from a well regarded shop that is building a wheelset for me (I am building a different one myself.....got to get good at it) and they noted that going from a 28mm tires (gp5000) (run and 95 back, 90 front and i am 240) to 32 mm i should drop about 8 pounds pressure and going to a wider rim I should drip another 8 lbs, otherwise there is flexing and spokes loosen. I was multi tasking and so did not get the mechanics down pat, but this could be a consideration

as to all the other stuff

here is a link where the poster said his shop doesn't work on 10 speeds any more 2006 Trek 5200 Chainring Replacement

my local bike charity does build wheels and has the full gear high spoke cutting and threading machine, all the park tools and gauges etc.

Bicycle co-ops or bike kitchens are around all over the country

I see a wide mix of skills in local shops, the ones that have been around work on pretty much everything but the knowledge of vintage bikes is going fast. Chain and "trek and specialized" stores seem to focus on sales and some service

Lots of variations even within the county I live in (santa Clara County in CA)
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Old 01-18-22, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by frogman View Post
You need to characterize your co-op statements to indicate just Colorado. Just because it is that way in your area doesn't mean it applies everywhere else. Our co-ops are managed and operate differently here in CA. They align and build wheels although I can't say they do a very good job
Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
All of them? Every co-op in California builds wheels? Co-ops are pretty much the same everywhere. They are usually non-profit organizations with volunteers and run on a shoestring. You may have some around you that build wheels but I donít find that very believable.
Our local co-op has plenty of salvaged wheels so there is little reason to build them. Occasionally a volunteer will spend some time building a few just for the experience or to help another member, but this is not common.

Salvaged wheels from donated bikes are either in good enough shape to be trued or they are tossed into the scrap metal bin. An exception would be a higher end wheel where the hub and maybe the spokes are salvaged. The bottom line here is that we rarely have good bare rims with which to start an efficient building process.
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Old 01-18-22, 08:27 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
What difference does the shape of the spoke make?
Much easier and faster to control windup on an aero spoke. Round spokes are just a little slower
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Old 01-18-22, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by squirtdad View Post
Another possibility is that the tire pressure is too high, causing flexing and loosening of spokes. I got this information from a well regarded shop that is building a wheelset for me (I am building a different one myself.....got to get good at it) and they noted that going from a 28mm tires (gp5000) (run and 95 back, 90 front and i am 240) i should drop about 8 pounds pressure and going to a wider rim I should drip another 8 lbs, otherwise there is flexing and spokes loosen. I was multi tasking and so did not get the mechanics down pat, but this could be a consideration
That's a good point, and many lightweight tubeless rims will also drop spoke tension just with a tire mounted. So perhaps the wheels felt good and tight on the stand, but dropped enough tension with the tires on and inflated that the nipples were free to shake loose.

Some professional wheelbuilders will install a tire and pump it up for their final truing, to check if the wheel goes out of true or particular spokes get too slack. If it's the type of setup to drop a lot of tension, the temptation is to really crank up the spoke tension, but you need a good way to ensure that you're not exceeding the maximum tension rating.
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Old 01-18-22, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
Much easier and faster to control windup on an aero spoke. Round spokes are just a little slower
It seems like you're either not paying attention to or not understanding the OP's question. He's not asking about spoke windup but spokes loosening after riding the finished wheel. Round or aero doesn't matter...if you're going to prep the spokes to keep them from loosening later you're going to prep whatever you're building with.
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Old 01-18-22, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
It seems like you're either not paying attention to or not understanding the OP's question. He's not asking about spoke windup but spokes loosening after riding the finished wheel. Round or aero doesn't matter...if you're going to prep the spokes to keep them from loosening later you're going to prep whatever you're building with.
You are the one not paying attention.....
I gave him a one sentence answer ions ago as have others.

Spokes on properly tensioned wheels do not loosen.

OP probably does not know what proper tension is or how to achieve it and therefore, the discussion moved beyond his error(s).

Furthermore, you are the one making thread detours. I simply listed how I prepped my spokes and then you got all smartie with me and now you are saying I failed to understand the OP. Geesh

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Old 01-18-22, 11:42 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost View Post
Our local co-op has plenty of salvaged wheels so there is little reason to build them. Occasionally a volunteer will spend some time building a few just for the experience or to help another member, but this is not common.

Salvaged wheels from donated bikes are either in good enough shape to be trued or they are tossed into the scrap metal bin. An exception would be a higher end wheel where the hub and maybe the spokes are salvaged. The bottom line here is that we rarely have good bare rims with which to start an efficient building process.
Thanks for the overview of your North Carolina co-op. They get some pretty nice bikes in the co-ops around here. We get some carbon fiber bikes and frames periodically from them, they don't want to work on them. They get a mix of low end bikes and and more expensive bikes. Also some vintage steel rides. One of our mechanics worked in a south bay co-op before working for us and grabbed a Trek 770
that was turned in that had very little use. Fully Campagnolo Super Record equipped. The co-op's around here cater to the Silicon Valley area in the SF south bay and our north bay. Large segments of our areas are quite affluent. Mercedes in the driveways :-) People buy their bike and they keep them in their garage and don't ride them and turn them in. It is a decent tax write off to donate them. I have been trying to point out it is incorrect to stereotype the co-ops. They are not all the same.
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Old 01-18-22, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
You are the one not paying attention.....
I gave him a one sentence answer ions ago as have others.

Spokes on properly tensioned wheels do not loosen.

OP probably does not know what proper tension is or how to achieve it and therefore, the discussion moved beyond his error(s).

Furthermore, you are the one making thread detours. I simply listed how I prepped my spokes and then you got all smartie with me and now you are saying I failed to understand the OP. Geesh
No...read this a couple times. If you build a wheel w/ DT Comps and you build another wheel w/ DT Aerolites and you tension both wheels properly the spokes won't come loose. If you build those same 2 wheels and you don't tension them properly chances are they'll both come loose. Why would you use linseed oil on one type of spoke and not the other? The Comps aren't somehow more likely to have nipples get loose compared to the Aerolites.
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Old 01-19-22, 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by joesch View Post
I would suspect that radial patterns put more tension on the hubs and allow tension loss faster.
A radial pattern on a hub thatís not driven or braked, is not assumed to put more tension on the hub. However, the direction of the pull takes a path through the flange where there is less material present, which is why hubs not intended for radial lace sometimes crack at the flange when laced radially.
One thing Iíve seem listed as contributing to the risk of unwinding on radial laces is that on a cross-lace, there may be a tiny bit of bend between spoke and nipple, as the nipple may not be entirely free to swivel enough to match the alignment of the spoke perfectly.
This mismatch, tiny as it is, creates a little more friction in the threads compared to in a radial lace.
Should ride forces ever cause a spoke to go slack, this friction might keep a cross lace from unwinding where a radial would.
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Old 01-19-22, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by dabac View Post
A radial pattern on a hub thatís not driven or braked, is not assumed to put more tension on the hub. However, the direction of the pull takes a path through the flange where there is less material present, which is why hubs not intended for radial lace sometimes crack at the flange when laced radially.
One thing Iíve seem listed as contributing to the risk of unwinding on radial laces is that on a cross-lace, there may be a tiny bit of bend between spoke and nipple, as the nipple may not be entirely free to swivel enough to match the alignment of the spoke perfectly.
This mismatch, tiny as it is, creates a little more friction in the threads compared to in a radial lace.
Should ride forces ever cause a spoke to go slack, this friction might keep a cross lace from unwinding where a radial would.
Thanks for this explanation, it makes sense to me and a nice benefit to using crossing
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Old 01-19-22, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost View Post
Our local co-op has plenty of salvaged wheels so there is little reason to build them. Occasionally a volunteer will spend some time building a few just for the experience or to help another member, but this is not common.

Salvaged wheels from donated bikes are either in good enough shape to be trued or they are tossed into the scrap metal bin. An exception would be a higher end wheel where the hub and maybe the spokes are salvaged. The bottom line here is that we rarely have good bare rims with which to start an efficient building process.
Careful there. Some guy will come along and tell you not to draw any conclusions from what your local co-op does. That’s not the way they do it in California, you know?
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Old 01-19-22, 10:00 AM
  #48  
twistgrip
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I used loctite once. I never did it again. It provides insufficient working time and locks the spoke so you end up adjusting the others to match. My wheels improved once I started lubricating my threads. I usually have to re-tighten a couple of times during break-in.
Upon reflection: new rim with new spokes works well and stay put. I often use old rims. They usually need a couple of readjusts.

Last edited by twistgrip; 01-19-22 at 02:26 PM.
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Old 01-19-22, 10:30 AM
  #49  
Shimagnolo
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I've been building my own wheels for 25 years, using Triflow to lubricate the nipples, and never had a spoke loosen. My primary reason for lubricating the nipples, is to reduce friction on the outside of the nipple, where it contacts the rim. It makes adjustment easier on rims without grommets.

Now I did have an occasion where spokes loosened on a wheel I did not build. This was an almost new 1994 Cannondale.

Now a few days earlier, I had to take emergency evasive action to avoid being killed by an idiot cager who came flying around a corner where I was legally using the MUP crossing at a major highway. I instinctively threw the bike 90 degrees to the direction of travel to stop, which would have been a "lay down" in the motorcycle world. I'm thinking this sudden side loading of the rim might have triggered the spoke loosening, but I just don't know.
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Old 01-19-22, 04:15 PM
  #50  
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Inappropriate use of "Now" at the beginning of a sentence. 10 yard penalty and loss of down.
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