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Building rear moutain bike wheel advice needed?

Old 03-19-22, 10:19 AM
  #76  
winfred0000
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Originally Posted by bboy314 View Post
Those Sapim spokes and XT hub are high quality parts. I assume the Cliffhanger rim is a Velocity Cliffhanger, also high quality. These are all components to a good strong wheel. There’s no issue with using a disc compatible hub or tubeless compatible rim. You will need to install a spacer behind your 7 speed cassette, probably 4mm. The brake and shifting will both need to be adjusted with your new wheel. I’d probably check tension after 100 miles or so, sooner if you notice any loose spokes or the wheel seems out of true. Ride on!

Hi bboy314!

So great to receive your reply and in such a short time. Thanks for taking the time and your expertise! My wheel just arrived via FedEx. I measured that ring that was on the free hub body and it is 4mm, so I guess since it was used with the old wheel to use it with the new wheel too? I might with a YouTube tutorial rebuild the old hub. Maybe it's not worth it. I'll send a picture of how the spoke holes look.

I want to be able to at least partially have some usable gears, ride to the bus stop about 4 blocks and take it to a shop if I have to.

If you were me would you use one of those spoke guards that go between the cassette and the spokes because the space between the cassette might be greater than with the old wheel?

Can I haul groceries right away, or should I wait until the re-tensioning after 100 miles? On the box it says after 2 - 3 hours with mountain bike wheels and 4 - 5 hours with road bikes... so like you say about 100 miles easier to knock out of alignment?

I'll get that anti-flat fluid too.

Will it be harder with a tubeless rim to change my tires because I read that tubeless rims have more of a lip than non-tubeless rims to hold the tire on, right? Also with my new wheel here I felt along that inner lip on the rim. It is so sharp I could have cut my finger on it. Will that sharp edge cut into my tires and ruin them? Why such a sharp edge? Is that required for tubeless tires or what? Should I wait to put the tires on because I'm worried if I inflate them with such a sharp edge they will be damaged and I have very expensive tires.

The spokes I notice have one noticeable butt, but not two. The rest of the spoke is straight. Can you tell from the photos I have double butted spokes as that is what the mechanic said there will be. Also I was billed for brass nipples but they look silver ir stainless steel. Does brass get coated with silver, or do I not have brass nipples?

Thanks for Everything!
Winfred





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Old 04-03-22, 04:21 PM
  #77  
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Hi dedhed!

For 15 days I've had my new Cliffhanger wheel custom built from Velo Mine thanks to your input. I have photos too I posted several days ago. I placed the order on Wed 3-16-22 and the next morning about 11AM I phoned Velo Mine with some questions butthe builder who was going on vacation wanted to get it done so by then he was doing the final truing! They sent it FedEx on Thursday 3-17 and on Saturday 3-19 about 11AM the wheel arrived! I was amazed it came that fast as they originally said they were back-ordered, so nice of that guy to give me such priority. Also shipping was $20 and don't know how they could do it all for $220 including labor and shipping. They also must have a special deal with FedEx. Doesn't 2 days FedEx cost a lot more?

A sticker on the box said have tension re-checked for mountain bikes after 2 - 3 hours of riding. I took it to a shop to have the tension re-checked. The veteran mechanic with 30 years experience said he'd never heard of Velo Mine. The mechanic couldn't believe Velo Mine instructed to have tension checked even at all. He said they must be covering themselves telling customers to do that and that a tension re-check wouldn't even be necessary. He felt the spokes and said it was okay. Before he checked I did that plucking technique with the spokes. I'm a musician and kind of sensitive to tone sounds and every spoke sounded exactly alike, 2 different tones, the same tone for every spoke to the cassette side and same tone for the opposite, so very exact. Plus, it turned out I had the tension checked after 5 1/2 hrs of riding. It has been perfect ever since and maybe 200 or 300 miles riding so far as of yesterday 4-2-22.

I put on my tube tires for summer taking my chances in March. I almost cut my finger when mounting my tire as all around the inside of the Cliffhanger rim on both sides was a ridge that is razor sharp. I emailed the company about it and the owner said the Cliffhanger rims are all like that, no problem. They are tubeless rims and the builder said that tubeless rims were no problem for tube tires. Won't it be a major hassled trying to get my clincher tires off that rim with such a sharp edge? Also, as the tire flexes and pressures vary with use won't that sharp edge gradually cut into the tire? I respect their expertise, but it really makes me wonder. I asked for an invoice but the builder was going on vacation and in a hurry but the parts are: 36h Cliffhanger double walled rim. The invoice didn’t include the brand of the spokes but they are double butted and they said the same brand Phil Wood uses on his wheels. They used those spokes because the Sapim spokes were out with their distributor in Nevada. 12Mm brass nips, Shimano M8000 XT QR CL disk rear hub that they said would work with my rim brakes too. Does that sound like a very strong wheel?

I also hope to eventually pull a Burley Coho XC one wheeled trailer but might be a while as I see they are $490. Also my 29 yr old North Face tent, the rain fly is too leaky, so also at that age... a new tent is needed. Really though the zippers, all, is still durable! Just in case... do you think I could get by another year or more? Do you know of a good brand of silicone waterproofing spray as maybe I'll do that and still use the old NorthFace for a while until I can afford a new tent. I also have 9 mil plastic for the inside that I long ago cut to create a "bathtub" type of floor. I'll also get a front rack.

The Cliffhanger rim was $84, Shimano hub $52, and not sure what 36 spokes or brass nipples were as they didn't really itemize the invoice. I just remembered the prices. I had thought the builder forgot to add the labor and emailed about that. They said labor was included, also $20 shipping was too... and total $220.

It is a very nice feeling that now I can ride with confidence. The only thing now is that I'm still wondering how a rim can have a razor sharp edge on both sides on the inside the rim and not cause problems. Why Cliffhanger designs it that way baffles me.(?) I didn't bother Velo Mine about that as they are busy. When I very first called Velo Mine before I made my order an employee said their super strong wheel that you advised to get is a big seller and with very good quality record, but he said since I am 275lbs that having a stronger wheel built was best. He said that big seller wheel is really best for an average of about a 180 lb user. He said wheels in general are built to a top spec weight of 260 lbs. He said with me at 275 he would consider as still okay for a general strong mass built wheel, but to be safe I was doing the right thing having a custom build. That info might help others here too.

Thanks for all of your input. I am very grateful!

Carpe Diem!
Winfred

Last edited by winfred0000; 04-03-22 at 04:35 PM. Reason: rewording for clarity
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Old 04-03-22, 05:41 PM
  #78  
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Still overthinking.
Ride your bike. If you're worried about difficulty of getting it off, deflate it as if a flat and try it in the comfort of your house.
Keep an eye on it and retrue if needed. Buy a spoke wrench and do it yourself or take it in.
A couple of my bikes like my commuter I just leave the zip tie on and check it every now & again if I'm doing other maintenance.

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Old 04-03-22, 09:43 PM
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Hi dedhed!

Thank you for so much advice over the times! A very nice video, and a clever trick of the trade!

Top of the Evening!
Winfred
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Old 04-03-22, 10:05 PM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by rickpaulos View Post
Yes, I have a quad, 4 seats on two 26" wheels with 48 spokes per wheel using 2.0mm (14g) DT spokes. Rule is each rider has to weigh under 150 pounds for a bike and rider limit of 700 pounds. Over 5,000 miles and no broken spokes. Several broken rims however. I started with Sun CR18, then kept moving up the Sun weights as they offered heavier rims. Stuck with the original spokes with each wheel rebuild. The rims would crack from spoke hole to spoke hole on the inner "wall". Once that wall cracked the tire pressure would bow the sides of the rim out and the rim brakes would thump giving me a warning the rim was cracked. Top speed reached was 55 mph one time. We did the state 40km tt in 52:30.

I'd agree that the existing spokes on your wheel are questionable. What size, brand, material are they? All spokes are certainly not created equal or even close to it. All those black Chinese spokes are what would be called mystery meat at school lunchroom. Those are the only spokes I've broken on my bikes (stock Asian made wheels) and I'm 150 pounds. Okay so as kids we broke countless spokes playing bicycle polo with hard walnut croquet balls.

I run a local bicycle recycle coop. One of the larger bike shops in town sends us their broken wheels. They don't rebuild wheels, they only sell replacements to their customers. Alex rims are a regular donation item with cracked rims. More mystery Chinese metal. The many Asian boutique wheels with too few spokes and high spoke tension we receive have chunks of rims pulled out by the spokes.

Evenly spaced spokes, and the more there are will get you a stronger wheel.
Hi Rickpaulos!

I ended up getting a custom built wheel with a Cliffhanger rim. It was expensive at $220 including shipping and labor, but I need reliability. If you might have time I was wondering what you think being you own a shop. I took pictures of it included at post #76. It's a strange rim as I almost cut my finger when I put my tube tire on it. There is an extremely sharp edge all around the inside of the rim on both sides. The Velo Mine company owner said that was normal. I still wonder if it would eventually cut into my regular clincher tube tire. I've had the wheel for 16 days now and put maybe 2 or 300 miles on it and it has been very good. Do you think it's a very good/strong wheel? Thanks for your input!

Kindest Regards,
Winfred
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Old 04-04-22, 11:26 AM
  #81  
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The sharp edge would be a problem if the tire moves around on the rim. And they really move when there isn't much air pressure. I see this a lot on neglected bikes. Valve stems lean as the tire rotates around the rim so that's an obvious clue. Tubes get bunched up on one side of the valve stem. The ground contact area of tires flex up/down/in/out because of rider weight. Low pressure means more flex. Aluminum rims are all manufactured using an extrusion process. They must have been using a brand new die when making yours to get a sharp edge. I suppose you could file the sharp corner off a small amount. If it's sharp enough to cut your finger, it will cut the tube if it's making contact there. Depends on where the sharp edge is in the cross section.

An issue on vintage stuff is many rims and tires weren't manufactured to the same specs. thus ERTO and ISO eventually spec'd the measurements for them to follow. Those old rims haven't changed sizes but new tires are correct now. A new tire on an older undersized rim means the tube can get pinched under the edge of the bead with each revolution and get cut. This is also a problem with cheap steel rims without the bead seat shoulder. Those rims are used on countless kids bikes and 1980/1990s USA "mountain bikes" from Huffy and others.

Inner tubes aren't all equal. Some use thicker material and should hold up better vs pinches. IMO, heavier tubes, "thorn proof tubes, sealants, tires with kevlar belts and other flat protection inserts all make the ride quality worse. If you ride in areas with lots of road debris or thorns those are needed. Most tubes aren't labeled as to how thick the material is. The light tubes are sometimes labeled as paperweight or lightweight. Thorn proof tubes have about 3x the material on the outer radius. You can sure feel the difference and a scale would tell. Also running a narrower tube in a wider tire means the rubber is stretched thinner and more prone to flats. Any tube will stretch to fit the tire, the air pressure sees to that. Too fat of a tube and it's hard to install and can get folded up inside the tire. New tubes are typically labeled with a range of widths. Best bet is to match the narrowest width to the tire. for example a 1.5 -1.95 tube in a 1.5 tire. Tires come in many widths and 26" tubes are only made in about 3 actual widths marked in ranges.

Those look like some pretty hefty spokes. 14 g or thicker. it's hard to break spokes that thick. I used 14g DT stainless on my custom quad (bicycle built for 4). four seater tandem with a typical load of 700 pounds of bike and riders. 48 spoke wheels. Never broke a spoke in 5000 miles. My old quad had Schwinn Twin tandem bike wheels and never had spoke issues on that either. Schwinn used "heavy duty" zinc plated steel spokes. 36 spokes, 13g or maybe 12g.
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Old 04-04-22, 01:39 PM
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Hi Rickpaulos!

Thanks very much for your input! You said, "They must have been using a brand new die when making yours to get a sharp edge. I suppose you could file the sharp corner off a small amount. If it's sharp enough to cut your finger, it will cut the tube if it's making contact there. Depends on where the sharp edge is in the cross section." My Cliffhanger, as you probably know actually owning a shop, is made in Florida. So you think the sharp edge is a manufacturing flaw? I had my wheel built by a company in Illinois where that's all they do is build wheels, but I bet in this era not for many 26 inch wheels. I have a 1.9 Suomi studded tires in winter and 2.0 Schwable Marathon Plus in summer. I mention tires getting low... I unknowingly for years thought having tires kind of low wasn't so bad. I eventually learned differently and about 2 yrs ago I bought a nice floor pump. I always carry a portable pump and new inner tube and tools. The sharp edge is on both sides but right up near where the edge would be for rims designed for clincher tires so the sharp edge comes in contact on the outside of the tire right up where the clincher edge is. If it's not a flaw, then what is the reasoning for having such a sharp edge? The owner of that wheel building company said that sharp edge is normal, but maybe he meant for tubeless tires and would be a real hassle for me. I say that my tires can get low but realize my tires can feel very hard and I put the floor pump on them and the pressure is only 40. I try to keep them pumped well. I didn't as much keep up on pressure when I did all my pumping with my portable pump. I'm more attentive to that now. I know a very helpful guy here said I think too much, and that's actually a problem in my own life ha! It seems so unusual this sharp edge but what do I know? Is the sharp edge, since it's not lower on the inner wall of the rim, okay? Won't it in time cut into the outside of my tire all the way around and just under the clincher edge? Sorry about so many questions. If you don't have time I understand. Thanks for your very informative response. Bicycles are a real science, much more than most realize!

Cheers!
Winfred
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Old 04-04-22, 04:26 PM
  #83  
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I'd like to think if the guy who builds wheels for a living (and has to warranty stuff) and handles those rims regularly didn't think it was a problem, it probably isn't.
A tubeless and clincher are made from the same materials and for all practical purposes the bead areas are identical.

​​​​​​https://cyclingtips.com/2017/01/clin...ubeless-tyres/
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