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Headset & Fork Change on Trek Verve E Bike

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Headset & Fork Change on Trek Verve E Bike

Old 04-17-22, 06:04 PM
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Headset & Fork Change on Trek Verve E Bike

Hey everyone! My E Bike currently has a 460mm ATC steel fork, with a 45mm offset. It is a 1-1/8 threaded. Will I need a tapered fork replacement? Is it doable to change the headset on this bike to threadless?

https://www.trekbikes.com/ca/en_CA/bikes/hybrid-bikes/electric-hybrid-bikes/verve/verve-2/p/28299/

I am looking to replace the fork with a 420mm atc fork, (disc brake, fender compatible, QR) with preferably 50mm or so offset, but not a requirement. Can someone please help me find something suitable?

According to the frame geometry calculator, this change would increase reach, decrease stack, lower the BB height , steepen the angles ... All great for me... But.

Decrease effective top tube length? Is that true?

I tried out a 700x28 rim and tire on the bike briefly and really enjoyed the change in geometry. The bike felt a lot better .

​​​​​​Thanks all!
​​
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Old 04-18-22, 01:26 AM
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I would expect 1-1/8 threadless cups to fit that frame, along with a fork that is not tapered.

Does ATC stand for Axle To Crown?
If yes, then know that a shorter fork will tilt the entire bike downard - i.e. seat tube will tilt to be more upright, more directly over the cranks, and also the fork angle will be closer to vertical.
4 cm fork length change is what I'd consider to be significant.
This will affect your own weight distribution (unless you find a seatpost with a lot larger setback), pedalling efficiency, and bicycle's steering - making the steering a bit "twitchy" (not sure how else to describe it).
I've tried this on a trekking bike and wasn't very pleased with the results (your experience and preferences may vary).
Edit: tyre change doesn't make that much of a difference, so your initial test may be misleading, unless there's over 2 cm of difference between the front and the rear tyre "height" when mounted and inflated.

As for the threadless, that's a good idea IMO. You can go to a local bike shop and ask for threadless headset cups for your bike - just pointing to it.
(I did write a series of articles about headset standards - what to measure etc, but our local bike shops work easier when they see the bike, compared to providing any standard sizes, dimensions, notations etc. - your experience may vary).

P.S. To visualize the effect of a shorter fork, just look at your bike from the right-hand side, and rotate it clockwise.
The saddle and seat tube will rotate forward, while the head tube will rotate more downwards, than forward.
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Old 04-18-22, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Bike Gremlin View Post
I would expect 1-1/8 threadless cups to fit that frame, along with a fork that is not tapered.

Does ATC stand for Axle To Crown?
If yes, then know that a shorter fork will tilt the entire bike downard - i.e. seat tube will tilt to be more upright, more directly over the cranks, and also the fork angle will be closer to vertical.
4 cm fork length change is what I'd consider to be significant.
This will affect your own weight distribution (unless you find a seatpost with a lot larger setback), pedalling efficiency, and bicycle's steering - making the steering a bit "twitchy" (not sure how else to describe it).
I've tried this on a trekking bike and wasn't very pleased with the results (your experience and preferences may vary).
Edit: tyre change doesn't make that much of a difference, so your initial test may be misleading, unless there's over 2 cm of difference between the front and the rear tyre "height" when mounted and inflated.

As for the threadless, that's a good idea IMO. You can go to a local bike shop and ask for threadless headset cups for your bike - just pointing to it.
(I did write a series of articles about headset standards - what to measure etc, but our local bike shops work easier when they see the bike, compared to providing any standard sizes, dimensions, notations etc. - your experience may vary).

P.S. To visualize the effect of a shorter fork, just look at your bike from the right-hand side, and rotate it clockwise.
The saddle and seat tube will rotate forward, while the head tube will rotate more downwards, than forward.
Thanks.. I will go and show the bike to my LBS.

The 700x28 wheel and tire I tried simulated rougher 18mm in drop at the front of the bike, and I thought it felt much better than stock. It seems to be like the extra length of this fork was designed to be cheap, strong and still capable of fitting up to 700x50 tires. Perhaps 4cm would be too much of a change... I'll try to find a 430mm ATC fork if I can.
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Old 04-18-22, 09:09 AM
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Maybe just get a bike that fits you better. A threaded fork is hard to find especially in the odd 1 1/8 size. You could swap everything out but you have to know what you need so you have to pull everything apart and measure most likely and then order a new headset, fork, stem, and potentially other little bits and bobs. Plus you can greatly effect the geometry and not always in a good way. I may not love Trek but there is some R&D going into these bikes to make them rideable but also for a specific purpose. I would just adjust your stem so it is pointing downwards a bit more and then adjust your bars to match.

I cannot judge too much as I swapped out my fork but the A2C was the same (within a couple MM) but I did increase the travel but I didn't have to buy a new headset just a new fork and the stem I happened to have and needed because I went to new bars. However my geometry stayed the same which is good as the geo was great and part of the reason I bought the bike I just became a little more upright from the bar position and got a more plush ride. I ain't getting any younger and my back isn't going to magically stop being my same back with problems.
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Old 04-18-22, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Moisture View Post
I tried out a 700x28 rim and tire on the bike briefly and really enjoyed the change in geometry. The bike felt a lot better .
​​
The lighter weight of the wheel/tire combination probably had as much to do with the difference you felt as the slight change in geometry
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Old 04-18-22, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by alcjphil View Post
The lighter weight of the wheel/tire combination probably had as much to do with the difference you felt as the slight change in geometry
You're right. But I also noticed that the stack was noticeably lower and the top tube /reach felt slightly longer.
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Old 04-18-22, 10:24 AM
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The old rule of thumb when swapping out suspension forks was 20mm of ATC equals 1* change in head angle.

Iím not so sure how much reach is effected with a shorter fork. Weight distribution will change and you can always swap stems to stretch out and drop the bars.

Iíve never been tempted to do a fork swap just to try to change geometry. But I have installed longer suspension forks that obviously impacted geometry.

Iím wondering if a 650b front wheel would be an easier way to go. You would have to swap out the front brake caliper, but it might but it would require fewer gyrations.

John
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Old 04-18-22, 03:25 PM
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I would not be playing around with a $3600 (cdn) bike. I don't think you will get any return and may end up adding complications. It really sounds like this is not the bike for you, it is a hybrid road commuter bike that comes with 50mm tires maybe what you need is an e-road bike.....course it looks like those start at $6500 (cdn) https://www.trekbikes.com/ca/en_CA/b...olorCode=black
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Old 04-18-22, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by squirtdad View Post
I would not be playing around with a $3600 (cdn) bike. I don't think you will get any return and may end up adding complications. It really sounds like this is not the bike for you, it is a hybrid road commuter bike that comes with 50mm tires maybe what you need is an e-road bike.....course it looks like those start at $6500 (cdn) https://www.trekbikes.com/ca/en_CA/b...olorCode=black
The Trek Verve is way over priced for what you get: I can spend ~$300 LESS and get a better Bosch Active Line Plus motor, a 50mm travel Suspension fork and frame lock keyed to my battery lock from Gazelle one of the oldest manufacturers of bicycles on the planet.

Not sure on pricing on the Domane but that actually seems a decent bike for the price compared to some other stuff but I am not as familiar with Fazua pricing but I can spend a bit more it looks like and get a carbon frame and fork with Ultegra. I mean a lot of companies have been raising their pricing but Trek just seems to really be high for what you get unless they are charging rates based on typical billboard pricing then it makes sense. Trek could either price their bikes way better or upgrade a few things to keep it on par. It is not like they are a super popular bike brand who makes decent quality stuff generally!
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Old 04-18-22, 04:33 PM
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With all of the previous answers and responses from the OP I am still wondering what sort of problem with the bike that is being addressed with the proposed solution
I think that the OP is trying to make something out of the bike that it was never designed to be
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Old 04-18-22, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by alcjphil View Post
I think that the OP is trying to make something out of the bike that it was never designed to be
Kinda known for that.
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Old 04-18-22, 07:58 PM
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I bought this bike on impulse, when I should have done more research and got a Kona Dew E instead. Regardless, I quite like this Trek Verve as it suits me well for commuting / grocery hauling as well as the occaisonal long trip.

I think that, while playing around with wheel sizes and fork lengths could be interesting for experimentation, these changes wouldn't be worth the hassle.

A 650b wheelset and slightly shorter fork would be fun to try out if easily accessible. Converting to threadless may actually be a good idea. Maybe if I find a good fork..
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Old 04-18-22, 11:41 PM
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* I donít know if you actually noticed the changes, or if because your Frame Geometry Calculator told you there was a change, so it must be significant.


What problem with the bike are you trying to solve? Wheel and fork swaps seem like a lot of work to address fit issues
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Old 04-19-22, 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Moisture View Post
You're right. But I also noticed that the stack was noticeably lower and the top tube /reach felt slightly longer.
Based on this, it seems like you could try changing out your stem and/or handlebar to achieve what youíre looking for?
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Old 04-19-22, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Ironfish653 View Post
* I donít know if you actually noticed the changes, or if because your Frame Geometry Calculator told you there was a change, so it must be significant.


What problem with the bike are you trying to solve? Wheel and fork swaps seem like a lot of work to address fit issues
the only "fit issue" I can comment on would actually be the crank arm length. This bike leans quite a lot around fast, sharp turns... Basically the sort of riding that no average verve rider would ever engage in. A 302mm high bottom bracket (even for a XL frame....) Would work great with 180mm while fitting large riders much better than the stock 170mm..

If brands dont want to spec the right size arms for the XL sizes, why on earth does the bottom bracket need to be so high, especially across all the sizes..?

This really is the only thing I'm trying to address, on an otherwise great bike.



Originally Posted by bboy314 View Post
Based on this, it seems like you could try changing out your stem and/or handlebar to achieve what youíre looking for?
I had a lot of trouble finding a 1-1/8 quill stem for a threaded fork... To play around with different stems, I would need to convert to threadless anyways.
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Old 04-19-22, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Moisture View Post
the only "fit issue" I can comment on would actually be the crank arm length. This bike leans quite a lot around fast, sharp turns... Basically the sort of riding that no average verve rider would ever engage in. A 302mm high bottom bracket (even for a XL frame....) Would work great with 180mm while fitting large riders much better than the stock 170mm..

If brands dont want to spec the right size arms for the XL sizes, why on earth does the bottom bracket need to be so high, especially across all the sizes..?

This really is the only thing I'm trying to address, on an otherwise great bike.





I had a lot of trouble finding a 1-1/8 quill stem for a threaded fork... To play around with different stems, I would need to convert to threadless anyways.
I think your are over thinking it on the crank size. pretty much only people who make 180 or larger are Zinn. 175,177 and 177.5 seem seem to be max.
And there is a trend to shorter cranks (not sure I buy in on it) unless you are like 6' 8' or so 180 is not likely to be needed
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Old 04-19-22, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by squirtdad View Post
I think your are over thinking it on the crank size. pretty much only people who make 180 or larger are Zinn. 175,177 and 177.5 seem seem to be max.
And there is a trend to shorter cranks (not sure I buy in on it) unless you are like 6' 8' or so 180 is not likely to be needed
There are a handful of brands making 180+ crank arms. Mainstream brands don't produce or fit them to mainstream bikes because it's not convenient for them to do so hence the "fit" gripe I have with my Trek.
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Old 04-19-22, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Moisture View Post
the only "fit issue" I can comment on would actually be the crank arm length. This bike leans quite a lot around fast, sharp turns... Basically the sort of riding that no average verve rider would ever engage in. A 302mm high bottom bracket (even for a XL frame....) Would work great with 180mm while fitting large riders much better than the stock 170mm..

If brands dont want to spec the right size arms for the XL sizes, why on earth does the bottom bracket need to be so high, especially across all the sizes..?

This really is the only thing I'm trying to address, on an otherwise great bike.





I had a lot of trouble finding a 1-1/8 quill stem for a threaded fork... To play around with different stems, I would need to convert to threadless anyways.
I would get a 1 1/8 quill adapter which will let you try out different stems easily.

Something like this:
https://www.performancebike.com/zoom...em-q-5/p552151
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Old 04-19-22, 08:00 PM
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Oh lord not the 180mm cranks thing again.
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Old 04-19-22, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Moisture View Post

If brands dont want to spec the right size arms for the XL sizes, why on earth does the bottom bracket need to be so high, especially across all the sizes..?
.
Very, very few people run 180mm cranks, even the ones who ride XL frames. Most mfgrs kit their bikes out to fit ď90% of people, 90% of the timeĒ.Thatís why bikes rarely come stock with 180s.
The price you pay for being on the far end of the bell curve, is that sometimes you have to get stuff tailored, rather than just buy off the rack.


Originally Posted by Moisture View Post
the only "fit issue" I can comment on would actually be the crank arm length. This bike leans quite a lot around fast, sharp turns... Basically the sort of riding that no average verve rider would ever engage in. A 302mm high bottom bracket (even for a XL frame....) Would work great with 180mm while fitting large riders much better than the stock 170mm....
I donít see what youíre getting at? Bikes lean in turns. The faster or sharper you make the turn, the more you have to lean; thatís just physics.
A higher BB gives you more cornering clearance, especially given your penchant for extra long crank arms, so Iím unclear as to why you feel the need to lower it. If the crank is too high, wouldnít it be easier to adjust the saddle?
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Old 04-20-22, 08:17 AM
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Ironfish653 E-bikes, or heavy bikes seems to lean more into turns than average.

Lowering the seat is one way to lower centre of gravity , but not without sacrificing ideal leg extension.

I think that, 180+ mm crank arms are very uncommon because different forging techniques using stronger aluminum would be needed. This bike is clearly designed for this size crank length, unless Trek is expecting their verve customers to thrash the bike going full speed into turns on uneven surfaces.

I've concluded that the bike doesn't need anything major. A new fork and headset would be nice, but I think the easiest and most effective solution would be to run a thicker tire in the front on a 650b rim. More traction, slightly less overall diameter.
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