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Cross chaining problem?

Old 05-18-22, 04:14 AM
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Dany6
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Cross chaining problem?

Hey guy hopefully someone will help me out with this...
So i get cross chaining even though i'm not cross chaining lol,what i mean by that is...
My chain gets kinda bent/cross chained when i'm on the smallest cog on the front and on any of 1-5 cogs (i mean from lower to highest gear/biggest to smallest cog) on the cassette,and from my pov when i'm on the bike,the chain kinda looks ok (doesn't looks cross chained) even if i'm riding smallest on front and 2nd or 3rd smallest cog in the rear....So yeah,so far i haven't used any of the 5 easiest/biggest cogs yet,which means haven't been on any of the "stronger" hills which sucks....I'm paranoid that if i do start riding on those cogs,i'd accelerate chain wear and probably cog teeths which might be true....
Here's about 20 pics which i think would be enough to see what i mean...
And what do you guys think what's the issue,why i do i get cross chaining even when i'm not doing it....

I ride 2x9,and btw my previous cassette ratio was 13-26,and the current one is 12-23,and with the previous cassette i had a longer rear derailleur cage and the service guy told me that i have to switch to shorter cage now which i did,replaced it to a shorter one....But when i had the previous 13-26 cassette and longer rear cage,i had no problem with this odd cross chaining,i could ride on the smallest on the front,and more of the larger ones on the rear (from 2nd largest to maybe 3rd or 4th smallest) and the chain wouldn't get bent,maybe it'd get just a little tiny tiny bit bendy when i'd ride on the 2nd biggest on the rear,but it would get bendy if i was riding on the biggest one tho....
Hopefully i explained everything well and hopefully i didn't messed something up with explaining gears heh.
And one thing that's bothering me is if they knew about this in the service shop,why wouldn't they just told me about it....
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Old 05-18-22, 06:22 AM
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smd4
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Wish I could say I can see what your problem is...
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Old 05-18-22, 07:16 AM
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I'm not sure I see the problem. Or there isn't a problem. This appears to be a road double with shimano or shimano compatible drivetrain. Sheldon Brown says the front chainline measurement should be 43.5 mm. That is the distance from the centerline of the seat tube to a point midway between the two chainrings. If someone has used a bottom bracket with the incorrect spindle length this measurement could be off. However, you stated that the problem was not there with the old cassette. If I understand your description correctly I doubt that the new cassette is installed incorrectly. There's not enough room for a spacer and a spacer would cause a chainline change in the opposite direction. On a normal 9 speed hub body the cassette can't be installed any deeper to cause your problem. This assumes it's an 8/9 speed cassette body. Incorrect axle spacer installation could move the wheel to one side and thus move the cassette position. Has any work been done on the wheel? You realize that on a double crank with a 9 speed cassette the chainline is never perfectly straight? Do you see more deflection in the small chainring and large cassette cog versus the big chainring and smallest cassette cog? They should look about the same.

It is true that if you tend to ride a lot in the outer or inner cassette cogs with more deflection the chain will theoretically wear out faster but I'm not sure by what percentage. If you are worried you may want to reconsider your choice of cassette and chainrings. You will get the most chain life if you do most of your riding in the middle cogs of the cassette. But personally, I wouldn't worry. Chains are relatively cheap components compared to cassettes and derailleurs.
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Old 05-18-22, 09:00 AM
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Cross chaining is just geometry, and chain flexibility.

A while ago I calculated the theoretical angle using midpoint of a cassette based on a perfect chainline and the angle created when in the 1st cog.

I donít remember the exact angle, 2.?* depending on cassette width. But the angle difference between a 2x9 small-small and a 1x11, (a system designed to cross chain in the 1st/11th position), in the 1st was pretty small.

This doesnít mean riding at the extremes are good for a system, it just indicates that chains are more flexible and mfgís do not consider cross chaining the kiss of death that was professed decades ago.

John
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Old 05-18-22, 09:18 AM
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OP what are you talking about? I don't think you understand what 'cross chaining' means because you're not doing it. I think you mean 'chain line'.
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Old 05-18-22, 09:20 AM
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Have you also changed out the chain ring size on the front and gone smaller? Have you done things you haven't told us?

What's the history of the bike? One owner since new or is this a used bike and it's possible a previous owner willy-nilly put different components on it?

For certain, knowing the bike year, make and model as well as all the specifics on each component involved will help.
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Old 05-19-22, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by mitchmellow62 View Post
I'm not sure I see the problem. Or there isn't a problem. This appears to be a road double with shimano or shimano compatible drivetrain. Sheldon Brown says the front chainline measurement should be 43.5 mm. That is the distance from the centerline of the seat tube to a point midway between the two chainrings. If someone has used a bottom bracket with the incorrect spindle length this measurement could be off. However, you stated that the problem was not there with the old cassette. If I understand your description correctly I doubt that the new cassette is installed incorrectly. There's not enough room for a spacer and a spacer would cause a chainline change in the opposite direction. On a normal 9 speed hub body the cassette can't be installed any deeper to cause your problem. This assumes it's an 8/9 speed cassette body. Incorrect axle spacer installation could move the wheel to one side and thus move the cassette position. Has any work been done on the wheel? You realize that on a double crank with a 9 speed cassette the chainline is never perfectly straight? Do you see more deflection in the small chainring and large cassette cog versus the big chainring and smallest cassette cog? They should look about the same.

It is true that if you tend to ride a lot in the outer or inner cassette cogs with more deflection the chain will theoretically wear out faster but I'm not sure by what percentage. If you are worried you may want to reconsider your choice of cassette and chainrings. You will get the most chain life if you do most of your riding in the middle cogs of the cassette. But personally, I wouldn't worry. Chains are relatively cheap components compared to cassettes and derailleurs.
Only thing that were done to a wheel was servicing it,changing bearing and re-lubing it,as far as i know nothing else.I do know the chainline's not perfectly straight the more you climb up the bigger cog,but in my case (i might be wrong as well tho) the chainline looks really bent on the back part,even if i'm riding only on 5th or 6th gear.I think if i used gears from 6th to 9th that often as i'm using 1-4,i think i'd have to buy a new chain after 1 month (and i'm riding like every 2nd day for 50-70km/3hrs) i might be wrong,but the chainline looks kinda extreme to me...
And the last,i get more chain deflection when i'm riding large on the cassete and small on chainring,when i ride on big chainring the further i can go is 1 cog on the cassete,which means i can ride on only two smallest cassette cogs (while on large chainring) until i notice chain deflection...
Originally Posted by 70sSanO View Post
Cross chaining is just geometry, and chain flexibility.

A while ago I calculated the theoretical angle using midpoint of a cassette based on a perfect chainline and the angle created when in the 1st cog.

I donít remember the exact angle, 2.?* depending on cassette width. But the angle difference between a 2x9 small-small and a 1x11, (a system designed to cross chain in the 1st/11th position), in the 1st was pretty small.

This doesnít mean riding at the extremes are good for a system, it just indicates that chains are more flexible and mfgís do not consider cross chaining the kiss of death that was professed decades ago.

John
I see,i never ride on small-small/big-big though,but is that possible on compact drivetrain tho.

Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
OP what are you talking about? I don't think you understand what 'cross chaining' means because you're not doing it. I think you mean 'chain line'.
Ahh yes sorry,i do understand it.
It's just my bad English heh,couldn't find the exact word so i sticked with "cross chaining",srry abt that....

Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
Have you also changed out the chain ring size on the front and gone smaller? Have you done things you haven't told us?

What's the history of the bike? One owner since new or is this a used bike and it's possible a previous owner willy-nilly put different components on it?

For certain, knowing the bike year, make and model as well as all the specifics on each component involved will help.
I changed only the cassette,and BB bearings,and as far as i think neither previous owner had put different components...But don't know if the 1st owner did anything to it btw...They're cousins,but 2nd owner told me he wasn't almost riding it at all,which i believe since the chain was really rusty and both 20c tyres almost gone...I'm the 3rd owner now btw.When i bought it,it had all Campagnolo setup,from derailleur to chain,only the brakes weren't Campi though.
The bike had "Masciaghi" stickers on it,so i assume that's the brand....

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Old 05-19-22, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Dany6 View Post
I do know the chainline's not perfectly straight the more you climb up the bigger cog,
Except for the sprocket immediately behind a chainwheel, there is going to be some deflection. I think you're blowing this out of proportion. The chain does have a bit of side-to-side play--necessary for the derailleurs to even work. I doubt you will wear it out in a month.

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Old 05-19-22, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Dany6 View Post
I see,i never ride on small-small/big-big though,but is that possible on compact drivetrain tho.
Sure it is possible, (with the caveat of the chain clipping the outer chainring in the small-small.

I agree with the majority that running at more extreme chain angles tend to cause more wear.

The problem is no manufacturer, at least I know of, has any published numbers of how far off of the chainline you can be.

In an industry, and participants, that seem to revolve around numbers, that question only brings crickets.

Can I run 10mm, off chainline? 15mm? 19mm?

I only looked at angles in my quick calculations, because chainstay length impacts the angle of the chain in the extreme positions.

I was going through some old papers and saw my rough calculations for 7 speed was 2.2* and 2.8* for 11 speed; 15-3/4” chainstay.

My observation had to do with 1x11 and if those angles are acceptable does that trickle to other systems?

I dunno, I’m not sure you can technically cross chain on a 1x setup, even if the angle is greater than big-big/small-small on a 2x.

John

Last edited by 70sSanO; 05-19-22 at 02:17 PM.
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Old 05-21-22, 11:51 AM
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If the chainline looks different to you since changing cassettes and you replaced the Bottom Bracket bearings (you said BB bearing) then take a second look at the Bottom Bracket installation. It appears to be the loose ball bearing type. I have serious doubts that it is wrong. A asymmetric spindle inserted backwards would probably create the opposite shift in chainline. If that's okay I got nothing.
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Old 05-23-22, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by mitchmellow62 View Post
If the chainline looks different to you since changing cassettes and you replaced the Bottom Bracket bearings (you said BB bearing) then take a second look at the Bottom Bracket installation. It appears to be the loose ball bearing type. I have serious doubts that it is wrong. A asymmetric spindle inserted backwards would probably create the opposite shift in chainline. If that's okay I got nothing.
My friend told me the problem might be that they inserted new incompatible/unsuitable bottom bracket and that might be causing the problem...
Edit: I've found an old pics when i had old components on it,and it seems they've changed whole chainset.
You can see that chainsets are different.Wouldn't even realize it if i didn't found these pics.
First four pics are the ones with old components,and other ones with new.
And btw i can't believe how blind and dumb i am,the whole time i'm saying that old Campi rear derailleur is switched with new Shimano's,but it's not Shimano's,it's actually switched again with Campi's,and i can swear that i've read "Shimano" on it lol (both chain and cassette are btw Shimano's,that's 100%).Must've been severe case of...what's that effect called when you're thinking for years that you seen for example some object on the picture or ad but it wasn't there lol...Doesn't matter....






​​​​​





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Old 05-23-22, 05:25 AM
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I’m not a Campy guy, but none of the swap makes any sense at all from a compatibility standpoint. I can’t even imagine how any of it works.

You can’t use a Shimano cassette on a Campy hub, Miche used to make compatible spline cassettes. Have no idea how your Campy shifters will work with a Shimano RD. If the chainline looks a little different, Campy and Shimano cassette spacing is different.

I really hope I’m incorrectly reading your post, because if what you say is true, I am so sorry the shop stole your long cage Campy RD.

John
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Old 05-23-22, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by 70sSanO View Post
Iím not a Campy guy, but none of the swap makes any sense at all from a compatibility standpoint. I canít even imagine how any of it works.

You canít use a Shimano cassette on a Campy hub, Miche used to make compatible spline cassettes. Have no idea how your Campy shifters will work with a Shimano RD. If the chainline looks a little different, Campy and Shimano cassette spacing is different.

I really hope Iím incorrectly reading your post, because if what you say is true, I am so sorry the shop stole your long cage Campy RD.

John
Read my last post (the ones chainset pics),it's actually not Shimano's but Campy's...If you read it'll be clear how i messed it all up 🤦🤦😔😤,but chain and cassette are Shimano's btw.

Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
Have you also changed out the chain ring size on the front and gone smaller? Have you done things you haven't told us?
Welp...turns out that these question you asked are true,but just the whole chainset has been changed not just just one ring...
I wrote everything in my previous post,i explained it there...I had it all messed up,damn it.

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Old 05-23-22, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Dany6 View Post
Read my last post (the ones chainset pics),it's actually not Shimano's but Campy's...If you read it'll be clear how i messed it all up 🤦🤦😔😤,but chain and cassette are Shimano's btw.

Welp...turns out that these question you asked are true,but just the whole chainset has been changed not just just one ring...
I wrote everything in my previous post,i explained it there...I had it all messed up,damn it.
If the Shimano Biopace crankset is the "new" one (that model hasn't been made in literally decades) and the shop didn't change out the BB, that could be your problem.

That particular Shimano crankset appears to be the FC-A300. It uses a square taper BB with either a 113mm (for British BB) or 115mm (for Italian BB) spindle.

I'm not that familiar with Campy, but I seem to recall that many Campy square taper BB's I've seen for sale had spindles in the 103mm range. I think that was one of the most common lengths, but I'm not sure.

From the photo, it looks like you may still have the Campy BB (can't really tell). If so - and if my recollection on spindle lengths for Campy square taper BBs is correct - that's around a 10mm difference in spindle length. This in turn would move your chainrings substantially inward and would affect your chainline.

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Old 05-23-22, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Dany6 View Post
Read my last post (the ones chainset pics),it's actually not Shimano's but Campy's...If you read it'll be clear how i messed it all up 🤦🤦😔😤,but chain and cassette are Shimano's btw.
Sorry I missed that part. And I am sorry about whatever was done to your bike.

John
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Old 05-24-22, 07:04 AM
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I think we're on the right track but I don't totally agree with Hondo6. The original crankset looks to me to have riveted chainrings. It also has no labeling. I'm doubting it is Campagnolo. Also, putting the 300ex crank on a shorter spindle than spec would move the crankset inward and produce the opposite change in chainline than described. I do think that the 300ex crank is probably on the wrong bottom bracket spindle but I think its too long. At any rate, changing to the correct bottom bracket (115mm for the 300ex according to Sheldon Brown) will fix the problem(?).
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Old 05-24-22, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by mitchmellow62 View Post
I think we're on the right track but I don't totally agree with Hondo6. The original crankset looks to me to have riveted chainrings. It also has no labeling. I'm doubting it is Campagnolo. Also, putting the crank on a shorter spindle than spec would move the crankset inward and produce the opposite change in chainline than described. I do think that the 300ex crank is probably on the wrong bottom bracket spindle but I think its too long. At any rate, changing to the correct bottom bracket (115mm for the 300ex according to Sheldon Brown) will fix the problem(?).
You appear to be correct re: the original crankset being rivited. I hadn't examined the photo at higher mag and had assumed those were bolts.

Interesting about the disconnect here in spindle length for the FC-A300. Per Velobase, the original BB for the 300EX groupset was the BB-A450. Other sources say that later Shimano switched to a cartridge BB (BB-CS10 or BB-CS11, if I recall correctly).

The BB-A450 was produced in 2 versions: 113mm spindle for 68mm (English) BBs, and 115mm for 70mm (Italian) BB shells.

https://manualzz.com/doc/53868814/sh...-exploded-view

Haven't checked spindle lengths for the later cartridge version that Shimano switched to, but I've seen at least 1 for sale that had a 115mm spindle for an English BB. So at least that length was made.

My guess - and this is only a guess - is that Shimano found that a 115mm spindle worked equally well with both and later changed their recommendation re: spindle length. That would be consistent with my own experience; I'm running the 300EX groupset (less the groupset's BB and hubs) on an older bike with a 68mm BB (English), and as I recall it currently has a 115mm generic cartridge BB in it. Works fine with 115mm; I'd guess it very likely works acceptably with 113mm too. Can't recall what the original BB was (bike documentation didn't say what type was installed and I don't recall now).

You could well be correct about the spindle being too far out vice too far in; that's hard to tell from the OPs photos and description. The rear view photos of his bike with the Shimano crankset installed don't really show the distance between the crank and the BB that well. Mine has what I'd estimate to be a 5-6mm gap based on poorly-calibrated eyes. (smile)

Last edited by Hondo6; 05-24-22 at 08:15 AM.
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Old 05-27-22, 03:22 AM
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A really huuge thanks to all of you guys.Really helped me a lot.
The only thing that i'd have to do know i think is to find a trusty mechanic,and that is knowledgeable.
Can't believe how unlucky i am lol,first this with crankset,2 days ago i had a flat tyre (forgot to bring pump,and valve adapter,but hopefully some guy offered me a ride back home),and day after that (yesterday) my left shifter lever breaks in a middle of a ride lol,it snapped pretty hard it flew away.
Now i think i'm gonna get an aluminium ones.
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