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Please help! Warranty work State Bicycle

Old 12-14-22, 12:02 PM
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boneshaker78
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Please help! Warranty work State Bicycle

I rebuilt the wheels on my State All Road and when I centered the front wheel it appeared that the fork was out of alignment or bent somehow. State was kind enough to upgrade the fork to a Monster carbon fork and the LBS I purchased it from was going to do the work free of charge.

Fast-forward to this afternoon and the LBS claims that the front wheel should be built to the fork and not centered between the the hub. They claim that modern steel forks and disc brake forks are often built this way. Iíve never heard of this and Iíve always centered my wheels in a traditional sense.

Is this true that wheels are built to forks this way? Iím afraid that they wonít do the warranty work for free and that State will somehow reclaim the fork. Iím concerned because they said they are going to reach out to State to figure out if itís covered under warranty or not.
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Old 12-14-22, 01:02 PM
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The only time front rims are not centered WRT the axle's end caps/nuts is when the fork is purposely designed to be asymmetrical (like single sided forks are). Or when a fork is not well aligned and the shop wants to deliver a bike that looks to have the ft wheel centered WRT the fork crown.

My speculation is that the fork is not best aligned. With a carbon fork the "fixes" are limited to blade length correction. But the blades could also be splayed to one side. With a steel fork this could be set but not so w/ carbon (and I would not do an Al fork too). There could also be some twist between the axle (in the drop outs) and the fork crown.

If the fork's blades are of uneven lengths and if the wheel is dished to center the rim w/in the blades at the crown the tire's contact point w/ the ground will be even further off to one side (from the bike's centerline). The wheel/fork will look right but the tracking of the bike will have been made worse.

That the shop would suggest this suggests to me that they are more concerned about the bike's looking right at the time of pick up than they are concerned about being right in how it rides. Which brings me to ask "have you ridden the bike with the replacement fork and have you confirmed a perceivable steering/tracking /pull to one side when no handed problem?" Until you, the customer, has had a chance to check the bike is real use situations I don't think any solid claims can be made about effects of a possibly misaligned fork, or a miss dished wheel.

Bike brands are famous for not being forthcoming about their alignment tolerances. Of course not many riders are straight or body symmetrical themselves...

I am only an hour down the Thruway so if this gets to be too much for your shop to deal with give me a PM. Here's a link to an old post I made about fork alignment. Front wheel turns hard right. Andy
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Old 12-14-22, 01:31 PM
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I can always count on you Andy!

That was my first thoughts as well and I told them so while I was in the shop. They reached out to State and were told to send the fork to them so they can check it over for quality control, recalls or whatever. I would have really liked to keep the fork, but knowing now that it was out of alignment I guess it doesn’t matter. They are going to do the work as State did cover it under warranty and I will have the carbon fork which will make it easier to sell. The original wheel was out of center by 5-10mm which I was shocked by, but they claimed was normal… yikes.

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Old 12-14-22, 01:50 PM
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That’s an incredibly detailed post Andy.

I can understand better what you mean about people not being 100% symmetrical and a lot of alignment issues tend to boil down to close enough at some point. I feel the same way when centering wheels, after a while I’m splitting hairs and I have to let it go.

I really appreciate your offer to check the fork out, but like I said, it’s headed back to State.

I’ll have to see how well it tracks when I get it back with the carbon fork. Hopefully it’s okay so I can sell it on.
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Old 12-14-22, 04:56 PM
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Hopefully State will correct the fork if necessary, but to expand on Andy's post and clarify:

Forks must meet two tests for alignment.

1- they must hold the wheel vertical (when the bike is vertical)
2- they must hold the wheel flat on the central plane of the bicycle.

Correcting one will not correct the other, so they must be measured and corrected independently. Filing dropouts so the wheel centers in the fork doesn't necessarily solve either, and only improves cosmetics. In fact a fork may meet both above tests and still look wrong.

Even without purpose built tools, forks can be checked for both criteria, using some basic tools and creativity.

For example proper vertical angle can be checked with a level, and a wheel or hub. Mount the wheel (or hub) and have a friend hold the fork with steerer pressed on the (level) kitchen counter with blades hanging off. Rotate the fork so the wheel is flat (use level). Then place level on the wheel parallel to the steerer and it should be level, or match the slope of the counter). If using a hub, rotate the fork until the axle is vertical, referencing the front of the hub, then take the test measure off the bottom (front and bottom refer to the positions if the bike were in use)

Testing for the wheel plane calls for some other items. You'll need a table with some kind of vertical reference plane, ie. a square block attached to it, and a tri-square. If you have a glass table, you can glue something to it. Hold the fork with the steerer against the vertical surface, and mark the inside position of either dropout. Now flip the fork, and using the square reference the inside of the dropout, It should be in the same place.

Before retiring, I'd check forks similarly using a V-block and a combination square.

The above is offered for the benefit of anyone suspecting fork alignment issues, and lacking specialized tools to confirm.
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Old 12-14-22, 06:29 PM
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Does your bike have a front disc brake? If so, the front wheel will have to be "dished" to center the rim between the locknuts and it will not be necessarily centered over the hub shell. The disc attachment makes the front hub unsymmetrical and the rim must be centered accordingly.
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Old 12-14-22, 07:51 PM
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Wheels from a factory being 5-10mm out of dish is a HUGE amount of poor assembly. This much makes me wonder about how this was measured as it's close to what a disk hub's flanges might be off set from the fork's centerline (as in where the hub axle's end caps/lock nuts touch). So is this 5-10mm based on the axle ends or the flanges?

Agree that it's too bad the OEM steel fork has shipped as it would likely have been alignable in all planes. I am no longer doing LBS hours but am always willing to consider interesting jobs. Andy
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Old 12-15-22, 04:16 AM
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I’m all too confused.

The fork was a disc fork with a thru axle. I assumed most people here knew what bike I was talking about and the specs that it had, but I guess we all know what they say about people who assume too much. That’s my fault for assuming something like that and not providing complete information so that others could help me with my situation in an accurate manner. Sorry to send everyone off on a wild tangent about fork alignment.

I measured both ends of the hub where they make contact with the fork ends, it would only make sense to me to do so.

I’ll never buy a complete mass produced bicycle again. I’ve always assembled my own bikes from the ground up making sure that I’m happy with the quality of the parts and the build of the wheels.

Thanks for the help all, but this might just be a mountain out of a mole hill experience, which is quite common for me.

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Old 12-15-22, 05:04 AM
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You misread Hillrider's post.

The fork is (supposed to be) symmetrical. The hub isn't. Like in rear wheels, the rim is centered between ends of the hub, and not between the flanges. (dished)

The easy way to check the wheel, is to flip it. Since rhe rim is centered it should end up in rhe same place between the blades.

So, simple logic for a wheel who's rim isn't centered between the blades. Note which side its close to. Flip and note the new position. If it's still on the same side, the wheel is OK, the fork isn't. OTOH, if the rim is now on the other side the wheel is off.

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Old 12-15-22, 06:30 AM
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I don't think any surviving manufacturer is back to pre-pandemic quality yet. There's quality issues in the entire chain.

I've seen this in a friend's new Trek and experienced it with my new Canyon. Both problems were totally dealt with by the mfg without hassling, but still...
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Old 12-15-22, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
You misread Hillrider's post.

The fork is (supposed to be) symmetrical. The hub isn't. Like in rear wheels, the rim is centered between ends of the hub, and not between the flanges. (dished)

The easy way to check the wheel, is to flip it. Since rhe rim is centered it should end up in rhe same place between the blades.

So, simple logic for a wheel who's rim isn't centered between the blades. Note which side its close to. Flip and note the new position. If it's still on the same side, the wheel is OK, the fork isn't. OTOH, if the rim is now on the other side the wheel is off.
Maybe I did misread it. I think I understand you better. I’m fairly certain I was 100% right about my own assumptions from the start. I give up at this point though. 😂

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Old 12-15-22, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
Wheels from a factory being 5-10mm out of dish is a HUGE amount of poor assembly.
agree

5-10mm out anywhere is unacceptable

I had an early 90’s 2.8 Cannondale with bad frame and fork

could barely ride the bike with hands off the bar

frame and fork went into the trash
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Old 12-16-22, 11:33 AM
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Thought I’d follow up everyone. I’m convinced that the steel fork the bike came with was out of alignment. The front wheel I rebuilt and centered accordingly fit nearly perfectly between the fork blades on the new carbon fork. I know it’s out by a millimeter or less, but I’m comfortable with it. Sorry about the confusion and messy post, but in the end State did an excellent job standing by their product despite the low quality control and my LBS did the warranty work for free… I can’t complain. The bike tracked straight on my 3 mile ride back home, very satisfied with what it is now. Not the best bike out there, but gets the job done for the commuting needs I have. Here are some images of the bike finished up without the front fender attached. The image with the dishing gauge shows how much the front wheel rim was out of alignment to compensate for the misaligned fork.



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