Spokes very short and for a very long time
01-29-23, 11:35 AM
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Spokes very short and for a very long time
I didn’t want to hijack another spoke length thread about spoke length on the C&V, so thought I would post here. On my 73 Schwinn SuperSport that I bought in 1975, a new Weinmann rim was replaced by a bike shop in 1976 after the stock one was damaged. It was a fairly exciting experience where a stick was thrown up by another biker and wound up in my spokes on that front wheel causing a flip at maybe 20 mph.
That was my only bike for decades getting ridden a fair amount earlier on and only maybe 50-100 miles a year in the following decades. Around 1980 I did put over 2000 miles on it including a 600 mile loaded ride to visit a college buddy. This front wheel has held up since with maybe only a couple truings and no problems. Fast forward to now where I have many bikes and like to tinker and got a spoke tension gauge and have been going through some wheels.
For whatever reason this wheel has spokes that are probably at least 6mm short. Best guess is around 295mm with another same year and model bike being maybe 301. Perhaps the shop put on shorter spokes or kept old ones and the erd was different. When I was going to redo this wheel, I was going to put 14 mm nipples on it, but they would have been too short. I replaced some rounded off 16s with some new 16s and finished the job bringing up true and tension.
So, the long story is to ask why everything works well enough even though the spokes were way short and also, they were fairly loose relative to how they should be. I guess I didn’t worry as I did my long deferred maintenance as it has held up for 4 decades. The spokes are galvanized butted spokes laced 3 cross on Weinmann non eyletted rims if that matters. I just discovered that the 1976 replacement rim is also hooked. I guess I may be not as concerned now on my other vintage bikes if spokes are 2-3 mm short.
That was my only bike for decades getting ridden a fair amount earlier on and only maybe 50-100 miles a year in the following decades. Around 1980 I did put over 2000 miles on it including a 600 mile loaded ride to visit a college buddy. This front wheel has held up since with maybe only a couple truings and no problems. Fast forward to now where I have many bikes and like to tinker and got a spoke tension gauge and have been going through some wheels.
For whatever reason this wheel has spokes that are probably at least 6mm short. Best guess is around 295mm with another same year and model bike being maybe 301. Perhaps the shop put on shorter spokes or kept old ones and the erd was different. When I was going to redo this wheel, I was going to put 14 mm nipples on it, but they would have been too short. I replaced some rounded off 16s with some new 16s and finished the job bringing up true and tension.
So, the long story is to ask why everything works well enough even though the spokes were way short and also, they were fairly loose relative to how they should be. I guess I didn’t worry as I did my long deferred maintenance as it has held up for 4 decades. The spokes are galvanized butted spokes laced 3 cross on Weinmann non eyletted rims if that matters. I just discovered that the 1976 replacement rim is also hooked. I guess I may be not as concerned now on my other vintage bikes if spokes are 2-3 mm short.
01-29-23, 12:40 PM
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Probably two reasons why the improperly built wheel held up as long as it did:
1. You didn't ride it much. Only 50 to 100 miles/year plus one long ride. Not that many total miles
2. It was a front wheel so it supported less than 50% of the bike+rider weight and didn't have to take any drive forces. Low loads made it survive.
1. You didn't ride it much. Only 50 to 100 miles/year plus one long ride. Not that many total miles
2. It was a front wheel so it supported less than 50% of the bike+rider weight and didn't have to take any drive forces. Low loads made it survive.
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01-29-23, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by sd5782
For whatever reason this wheel has spokes that are probably at least 6mm short.
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01-29-23, 04:29 PM
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Spokes reach to a bit short of the inside of the rim or a bit shorter. The 16mm length of nipples reach longer and I would guess when tightened, maybe 2/3 of the spoke threads are engaged or a bit more. It wasn’t my doing, but it’s lasted 45 years so maybe I’ll just live with it for another decade or two.
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01-29-23, 04:59 PM
#6
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Originally Posted by sd5782
Spokes reach to a bit short of the inside of the rim or a bit shorter. The 16mm length of nipples reach longer and I would guess when tightened, maybe 2/3 of the spoke threads are engaged or a bit more. It wasn’t my doing, but it’s lasted 45 years so maybe I’ll just live with it for another decade or two.
Last edited by maddog34; 01-29-23 at 05:04 PM.
01-29-23, 05:04 PM
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My first thought is the shop used what got the job done. Second that as a ft wheel I'm not surprised that the wheel has survived w/o further issues.
In 1976 the 27x1 1/4 (630 ISO) wheel size was pretty much ell one saw other than sew ups. Their spokes were typically around 4mm longer than 700C wheels, all else being the same. I've built quite a few dozen wheels with 312mm spokes. Andy
In 1976 the 27x1 1/4 (630 ISO) wheel size was pretty much ell one saw other than sew ups. Their spokes were typically around 4mm longer than 700C wheels, all else being the same. I've built quite a few dozen wheels with 312mm spokes. Andy
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01-29-23, 08:21 PM
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I found it strange that the spoke length wasn’t the same as on my other 73. I would’ve thought that they would just reuse the spokes. I certainly don’t remember if they used new spokes, but it seems they must have used newer shorter ones. This was a small town Schwinn dealer and probably no sew ups around. The patina presently matches the rest of the bike.
01-29-23, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by sd5782
I found it strange that the spoke length wasn’t the same as on my other 73. I would’ve thought that they would just reuse the spokes. I certainly don’t remember if they used new spokes, but it seems they must have used newer shorter ones. This was a small town Schwinn dealer and probably no sew ups around. The patina presently matches the rest of the bike.
01-31-23, 06:35 PM
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My guess is the nipples are brass, not alloy. That might be another reason they have held up so long. Normally, if spokes are so short that they don't thread through the nipple head, they will be prone to breaking. I also agree that being a front wheel has helped too as a front wheel doesn't have any twisting forces unless it's a disc wheel. If that had been a rear wheel, it probably would have been toast awhile ago.
Last edited by Lombard; 01-31-23 at 09:02 PM.
01-31-23, 06:36 PM
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Your asking the wrong question. It's like asking a 95 year old 2 pack a day smoker how come he's still around.
Possible explanations for your wheel's longevity include that it's a front or that it, frankly, hasn't seen that much use. Also, note that while 14g brass nipples are weaker than the spokes, they aren't that much weaker, and steel nipples are actually stronger.
The fact that the spokes were butted surely helped, but again it's simply the wrong question.
When things fail, it's logical to explore why and how. But that can't be done when things don't fail, because there's no evidence.
So, it could be a combination of any of the above factors, of like with the old smoker ------ just luck.
Possible explanations for your wheel's longevity include that it's a front or that it, frankly, hasn't seen that much use. Also, note that while 14g brass nipples are weaker than the spokes, they aren't that much weaker, and steel nipples are actually stronger.
The fact that the spokes were butted surely helped, but again it's simply the wrong question.
When things fail, it's logical to explore why and how. But that can't be done when things don't fail, because there's no evidence.
So, it could be a combination of any of the above factors, of like with the old smoker ------ just luck.
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01-31-23, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
Your asking the wrong question. It's like asking a 95 year old 2 pack a day smoker how come he's still around.
Possible explanations for your wheel's longevity include that it's a front or that it, frankly, hasn't seen that much use. Also, note that while 14g brass nipples are weaker than the spokes, they aren't that much weaker, and steel nipples are actually stronger.
The fact that the spokes were butted surely helped, but again it's simply the wrong question.
When things fail, it's logical to explore why and how. But that can't be done when things don't fail, because there's no evidence.
So, it could be a combination of any of the above factors, of like with the old smoker ------ just luck.
Possible explanations for your wheel's longevity include that it's a front or that it, frankly, hasn't seen that much use. Also, note that while 14g brass nipples are weaker than the spokes, they aren't that much weaker, and steel nipples are actually stronger.
The fact that the spokes were butted surely helped, but again it's simply the wrong question.
When things fail, it's logical to explore why and how. But that can't be done when things don't fail, because there's no evidence.
So, it could be a combination of any of the above factors, of like with the old smoker ------ just luck.
One flaw in the old smoker analogy is that with living beings, you have to factor in genetics.
01-31-23, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Lombard
I never heard of steel nipples. That must be from decades back.
One flaw in the old smoker analogy is that with living beings, you have to factor in genetics.
One flaw in the old smoker analogy is that with living beings, you have to factor in genetics.
As to the analogy, it was just that and no more. Yes, genetics are a factor in lifespan, but there are other not mentioned variables which might influence wheel life.
The point was and is, that discussion of a non-failure or any non-event is pointless. When something happens we can look for causes, but there's no way to explain when it doesn't.
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02-02-23, 09:11 PM
#14
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Originally Posted by Lombard
I never heard of steel nipples. That must be from decades back.
One flaw in the old smoker analogy is that with living beings, you have to factor in genetics.
One flaw in the old smoker analogy is that with living beings, you have to factor in genetics.
PS, they're easy to sort out from the brass ones... a magnet works great.
and most low gradeGalvanized spokes are attached with steel nipples
hmmm, great name for a Death Metal band.... The Steel Nipples
I went with Poster Child, or the Speaker Busters, back in the Day.....My Stage amp was a custom built Kustom 400, specially made for Earth Wind and Fire, in Metal Flake White tuck and roll... it could, quite literally, Break windows...... and yes, my ears are still ringing... all day, every day.
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02-03-23, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by maddog34
You obviously don't work on Box Store bikes.. Nearly ALL of them use steel nipples... Low Grade steel nipples... that love to collapse when twisted to their limits.... sigh.
02-03-23, 10:23 AM
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All interesting comments, and I think I will retire that wheel until I get new spokes. The comments about the spokes needing to be filling the length of the nipple to give it strength made sense. Yes, these haven’t been ridden much over the years and have mostly been ridden fairly loose, as I wasn’t as knowledgeable then about my maintenance.
I found an old Schwinn Continental wheel I had and thought about using the spokes from it. I wouldn’t ride it with its steel rim. I discovered that those spokes are 11 5/8” like on my wheel, so no go. I also have a 76 Normandy high flange front wheel from a Motobecane Super Mirage that is on my bike trainer stand that I have been taking parts off of since I never plan on riding it. I will use that as it matches pretty well and my bike isn’t really stock or pristine. Thanks for the interesting comments.
I found an old Schwinn Continental wheel I had and thought about using the spokes from it. I wouldn’t ride it with its steel rim. I discovered that those spokes are 11 5/8” like on my wheel, so no go. I also have a 76 Normandy high flange front wheel from a Motobecane Super Mirage that is on my bike trainer stand that I have been taking parts off of since I never plan on riding it. I will use that as it matches pretty well and my bike isn’t really stock or pristine. Thanks for the interesting comments.
02-05-23, 02:02 AM
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Originally Posted by sd5782
All interesting comments, and I think I will retire that wheel until I get new spokes. The comments about the spokes needing to be filling the length of the nipple to give it strength made sense. Yes, these haven’t been ridden much over the years and have mostly been ridden fairly loose, as I wasn’t as knowledgeable then about my maintenance.
I found an old Schwinn Continental wheel I had and thought about using the spokes from it. I wouldn’t ride it with its steel rim. I discovered that those spokes are 11 5/8” like on my wheel, so no go. I also have a 76 Normandy high flange front wheel from a Motobecane Super Mirage that is on my bike trainer stand that I have been taking parts off of since I never plan on riding it. I will use that as it matches pretty well and my bike isn’t really stock or pristine. Thanks for the interesting comments.
I found an old Schwinn Continental wheel I had and thought about using the spokes from it. I wouldn’t ride it with its steel rim. I discovered that those spokes are 11 5/8” like on my wheel, so no go. I also have a 76 Normandy high flange front wheel from a Motobecane Super Mirage that is on my bike trainer stand that I have been taking parts off of since I never plan on riding it. I will use that as it matches pretty well and my bike isn’t really stock or pristine. Thanks for the interesting comments.
open Ebay.. punch in "302mm spokes" or whatever length you want... shop away. get "stainless steel spokes"... if it only says "stainless' but not steel,or vica-versa, move to the next ad... even the low budget ones are ok, but only if They specify "Stainless steel" in the title. ;-)
11.675 x 25.4 = 296.5 millimeters... only about 2mm can be threaded out the slotted top of the nipples, no matter Their length, so... a hair shorter spoke is usually better than TOO Long. 12mm nipples for a bare rim, and 14 mm for a rim with nipple grommets installed.
14 ga, is a heavy duty spoke, 15 ga.is lighter and still plenty strong for normal use. "Double Butted" spokes actually last a bit longer due to having a more forgiving nature... they stretch just a tiny bit when suddenly loaded past normal, then snap back.
Last edited by maddog34; 02-05-23 at 02:17 AM.
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02-05-23, 06:17 AM
#18
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Originally Posted by maddog34
funny thing about the differences in Nipple lengths... the 16 mm nipples have the same length of threaded portion as a 14 or 12mm nipple does... and the 8 mm of internal threads are at the head end, not the squared end.......... check it out if you don't believe it.
02-05-23, 06:26 AM
#19
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Originally Posted by sd5782
I didn’t want to hijack another spoke length thread about spoke length on the C&V, so thought I would post here. On my 73 Schwinn SuperSport that I bought in 1975, a new Weinmann rim was replaced by a bike shop in 1976 after the stock one was damaged. It was a fairly exciting experience where a stick was thrown up by another biker and wound up in my spokes on that front wheel causing a flip at maybe 20 mph.
That was my only bike for decades getting ridden a fair amount earlier on and only maybe 50-100 miles a year in the following decades. Around 1980 I did put over 2000 miles on it including a 600 mile loaded ride to visit a college buddy. This front wheel has held up since with maybe only a couple truings and no problems. Fast forward to now where I have many bikes and like to tinker and got a spoke tension gauge and have been going through some wheels.
For whatever reason this wheel has spokes that are probably at least 6mm short. Best guess is around 295mm with another same year and model bike being maybe 301. Perhaps the shop put on shorter spokes or kept old ones and the erd was different. When I was going to redo this wheel, I was going to put 14 mm nipples on it, but they would have been too short. I replaced some rounded off 16s with some new 16s and finished the job bringing up true and tension.
So, the long story is to ask why everything works well enough even though the spokes were way short and also, they were fairly loose relative to how they should be. I guess I didn’t worry as I did my long deferred maintenance as it has held up for 4 decades. The spokes are galvanized butted spokes laced 3 cross on Weinmann non eyletted rims if that matters. I just discovered that the 1976 replacement rim is also hooked. I guess I may be not as concerned now on my other vintage bikes if spokes are 2-3 mm short.
That was my only bike for decades getting ridden a fair amount earlier on and only maybe 50-100 miles a year in the following decades. Around 1980 I did put over 2000 miles on it including a 600 mile loaded ride to visit a college buddy. This front wheel has held up since with maybe only a couple truings and no problems. Fast forward to now where I have many bikes and like to tinker and got a spoke tension gauge and have been going through some wheels.
For whatever reason this wheel has spokes that are probably at least 6mm short. Best guess is around 295mm with another same year and model bike being maybe 301. Perhaps the shop put on shorter spokes or kept old ones and the erd was different. When I was going to redo this wheel, I was going to put 14 mm nipples on it, but they would have been too short. I replaced some rounded off 16s with some new 16s and finished the job bringing up true and tension.
So, the long story is to ask why everything works well enough even though the spokes were way short and also, they were fairly loose relative to how they should be. I guess I didn’t worry as I did my long deferred maintenance as it has held up for 4 decades. The spokes are galvanized butted spokes laced 3 cross on Weinmann non eyletted rims if that matters. I just discovered that the 1976 replacement rim is also hooked. I guess I may be not as concerned now on my other vintage bikes if spokes are 2-3 mm short.
02-05-23, 06:44 AM
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Actually, tire is on wheel now, but will be coming off soon. A picture would just show a void at the rim end of the nipple. The spoke end is perhaps 5-6 mm below the screwdriver slot in the nipple. To measure, I put a thin wire in to test depth. After reading here I am not comfortable with it anymore and I have another wheel to use, and perhaps I will get a vintage Schwinn one from the co-op that I found a few years ago as my interests grew. Perhaps even a junk wheel for cheap that I could salvage the spokes from. I will try to get a picture up.
02-05-23, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by sd5782
Actually, tire is on wheel now, but will be coming off soon. A picture would just show a void at the rim end of the nipple. The spoke end is perhaps 5-6 mm below the screwdriver slot in the nipple. To measure, I put a thin wire in to test depth. After reading here I am not comfortable with it anymore and I have another wheel to use, and perhaps I will get a vintage Schwinn one from the co-op that I found a few years ago as my interests grew. Perhaps even a junk wheel for cheap that I could salvage the spokes from. I will try to get a picture up.
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02-05-23, 08:34 AM
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Exactly. They were all looser from neglected maintenance for decades. It made me think that once tight, the nipples may break, so out of service for a bit.
Wrong length
Threads showing above 16mm nipple
Schwinn on left and Normandy on right
As stated, I do have a similar high flange wheel I could use. Spokes are not double butted and it is visually a bit different. It is good enough, but I may see what I find at my co-op.
Wrong length
Threads showing above 16mm nipple
Schwinn on left and Normandy on right
As stated, I do have a similar high flange wheel I could use. Spokes are not double butted and it is visually a bit different. It is good enough, but I may see what I find at my co-op.
02-05-23, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by ign1te
5-6 mm below the slot is extreme indeed. Surprising that no nipples broke during use.
Hense my earlier post about this being a front wheel that sees so much less extreme tension change during use. Andy
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02-05-23, 08:58 PM
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This is so-o-o-o-oo sad.
You have a wheel that has served you well, and come here questioning your good luck, because there is so much "wrong" with it.
It's like going to the track, betting some long shot nag, and wondering what went wrong when it comes in.
Yes, there are issues with the wheel, and I wouldn't buy or sell one like it. But you've crossed that bridge and all is good so far. So, it seems you're wanting to toss it now, only to avoid having to toss it later.
I hope it makes sense to someone, or maybe you're planning a long tour and need to prioritize reliability. Otherwise, I'm lost here.
You have a wheel that has served you well, and come here questioning your good luck, because there is so much "wrong" with it.
It's like going to the track, betting some long shot nag, and wondering what went wrong when it comes in.
Yes, there are issues with the wheel, and I wouldn't buy or sell one like it. But you've crossed that bridge and all is good so far. So, it seems you're wanting to toss it now, only to avoid having to toss it later.
I hope it makes sense to someone, or maybe you're planning a long tour and need to prioritize reliability. Otherwise, I'm lost here.
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02-06-23, 09:20 AM
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Bikes: 1964 Frejus,1972 Fuji Newest, 1973 Schwinn Super Sport, 1983 Trek 700, 1985 Ironman, 1985 Torpado, 1983 Peugeot UO14, 1989 Miyata 1000LT and others
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
This is so-o-o-o-oo sad.
You have a wheel that has served you well, and come here questioning your good luck, because there is so much "wrong" with it.
It's like going to the track, betting some long shot nag, and wondering what went wrong when it comes in.
Yes, there are issues with the wheel, and I wouldn't buy or sell one like it. But you've crossed that bridge and all is good so far. So, it seems you're wanting to toss it now, only to avoid having to toss it later.
I hope it makes sense to someone, or maybe you're planning a long tour and need to prioritize reliability. Otherwise, I'm lost here.
You have a wheel that has served you well, and come here questioning your good luck, because there is so much "wrong" with it.
It's like going to the track, betting some long shot nag, and wondering what went wrong when it comes in.
Yes, there are issues with the wheel, and I wouldn't buy or sell one like it. But you've crossed that bridge and all is good so far. So, it seems you're wanting to toss it now, only to avoid having to toss it later.
I hope it makes sense to someone, or maybe you're planning a long tour and need to prioritize reliability. Otherwise, I'm lost here.
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