Integrated Headset help
03-14-23, 11:47 AM
#1
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Integrated Headset help
I recently purchased a Quiver Disc frameset like this
https://www.fyxation.com/products/quiver-disc-frameset
The website states that it requires an IS41 integrated headset, which is what I bought. The fork crown seat OD is 30mm, the same as the inner diameter of the bearing. When I install the split crown race, I am unable to push it any further down than what is shown in the attached photo. As you can see, there is a gap there. Did I buy the wrong headset?
https://www.fyxation.com/products/quiver-disc-frameset
The website states that it requires an IS41 integrated headset, which is what I bought. The fork crown seat OD is 30mm, the same as the inner diameter of the bearing. When I install the split crown race, I am unable to push it any further down than what is shown in the attached photo. As you can see, there is a gap there. Did I buy the wrong headset?
03-14-23, 02:03 PM
#2
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Curious about why, and wonder if your installation sequence might be the issue.
Start by installing the crown cone ("race") all the way down. Make sure it's fully seated, and resolve whatever is preventing that, if any, before going further.
You can not search it by pressing with the bearing, because the conical shape will have it squeeze a gains and grab the fork.
Start by installing the crown cone ("race") all the way down. Make sure it's fully seated, and resolve whatever is preventing that, if any, before going further.
You can not search it by pressing with the bearing, because the conical shape will have it squeeze a gains and grab the fork.
03-14-23, 02:04 PM
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we're going to need more info... headset brand and model/numbers.. .
do you have an accurate way to measure the bearing ID, crown seat OD and crown race ID ?
if so, please provide those measurements, ok?
and after looking at several integrated headsets online...plus recalling ones i've installed... NONE of them had a split Crown race.. that may just be the FSA, Cane Creek, and Aheadset kits i buy... The crown race is usually a press fit solid RING, and it Takes A Lot of Force to install, way beyond simply pressing it down by hand... how did you attempt to install the part in question?This is an example of the Slide Hammer i use to install Crown races... https://www.ebay.com/itm/30469623324...3ABFBM4r_Lntxh
Many also use a PVC tube, or copper pipe as an install tool
also... since this is a NEW fork... did you inspect the fork for debris or machining mess at the crown race seat? it looks rough to me.
do you have an accurate way to measure the bearing ID, crown seat OD and crown race ID ?
if so, please provide those measurements, ok?
and after looking at several integrated headsets online...plus recalling ones i've installed... NONE of them had a split Crown race.. that may just be the FSA, Cane Creek, and Aheadset kits i buy... The crown race is usually a press fit solid RING, and it Takes A Lot of Force to install, way beyond simply pressing it down by hand... how did you attempt to install the part in question?This is an example of the Slide Hammer i use to install Crown races... https://www.ebay.com/itm/30469623324...3ABFBM4r_Lntxh
Many also use a PVC tube, or copper pipe as an install tool
also... since this is a NEW fork... did you inspect the fork for debris or machining mess at the crown race seat? it looks rough to me.
Last edited by maddog34; 03-14-23 at 03:13 PM.
03-14-23, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by maddog34
.....NONE of them had a split Crown race.. the crown race is a press fit solid RING......
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03-14-23, 03:58 PM
#5
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Yes, I installed the crown race first, and then placed the bearing on top. I did not install both at the same time.
In the image below, you can (hopefully) see that the bottom of the crown race is beveled, so that is why it does not appear to be seated.
I know that this will be some cause for concern, but the brand is 'Risk', I purchased off Amazon. Below shows the ID of the bearing, 30mm.
The OD of the bearing is 41mm.
The diameter of the steer tube when the crown race sits is 30mm
And again the crown race on the steer tube, without the bearing.
In the image below, you can (hopefully) see that the bottom of the crown race is beveled, so that is why it does not appear to be seated.
I know that this will be some cause for concern, but the brand is 'Risk', I purchased off Amazon. Below shows the ID of the bearing, 30mm.
The OD of the bearing is 41mm.
The diameter of the steer tube when the crown race sits is 30mm
And again the crown race on the steer tube, without the bearing.
03-14-23, 04:21 PM
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OK, so this is a no problem "problem". The bottom of the race or cone is not flat intentionally for the same reason that cups and saucers are footed, namely to oprimize level seating on uneven surfaces.
In this case the crown's seat is the flat zone near the center, and the bevel is to provide clearance in the event that the seating area isn't perfectly flat. On most forks you wouldn't have noticed, because the seat area is relative small and the fork slopes away from it.
However, your fork has the wide flat disk which makes it look wrong, when it actually isn't.
If it bothers you, fill the gap with some kind of caulking.
BTW - it's also possible that the disk is actually part of the original headset that you forgot to remove. It's a possibility I'd explore by setting a punch against it and seeing if it moves up with gentle prodding.
In this case the crown's seat is the flat zone near the center, and the bevel is to provide clearance in the event that the seating area isn't perfectly flat. On most forks you wouldn't have noticed, because the seat area is relative small and the fork slopes away from it.
However, your fork has the wide flat disk which makes it look wrong, when it actually isn't.
If it bothers you, fill the gap with some kind of caulking.
BTW - it's also possible that the disk is actually part of the original headset that you forgot to remove. It's a possibility I'd explore by setting a punch against it and seeing if it moves up with gentle prodding.
Last edited by FBinNY; 03-14-23 at 04:39 PM.
03-14-23, 05:16 PM
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the "problem" is the headset kit you purchased.
Don't feel bad, we've all bought things that ended up not being such a great deal.
spend a few more dollars and buy an FSA.kit or Aheadset kit.....They fit up fine, as designed, and as machined.
Don't feel bad, we've all bought things that ended up not being such a great deal.
spend a few more dollars and buy an FSA.kit or Aheadset kit.....They fit up fine, as designed, and as machined.
Last edited by maddog34; 03-14-23 at 05:23 PM.
03-14-23, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by maddog34
it looks like the bearing is a direct press fit onto the fork, no crown race needed......
In any case, the OP clearly stated it came with a split crown race, and even included photos of it. So why would insist he doesn't need one.
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03-14-23, 05:20 PM
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These cartridge bearinged headsets generally wanr the cartridge riding on the beveled face and not the bearing's ID or OD. Otherwise why add cost and grind that bevel. The ID and OD should be sliding fits over the crown seat and within the head tube (or cups) ends.
The split seat ring is often what is locating the upper bearing's top side. The split ring can "float" along the steerer to allow for preload adjustment and the split will let it keep the bearing coaxial to the steerer as it compresses around the steerer. Is there another conical ring with a split in it in the packaging? Andy
The split seat ring is often what is locating the upper bearing's top side. The split ring can "float" along the steerer to allow for preload adjustment and the split will let it keep the bearing coaxial to the steerer as it compresses around the steerer. Is there another conical ring with a split in it in the packaging? Andy
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03-14-23, 06:28 PM
#10
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
OK, so this is a no problem "problem". The bottom of the race or cone is not flat intentionally for the same reason that cups and saucers are footed, namely to oprimize level seating on uneven surfaces.
In this case the crown's seat is the flat zone near the center, and the bevel is to provide clearance in the event that the seating area isn't perfectly flat. On most forks you wouldn't have noticed, because the seat area is relative small and the fork slopes away from it.
However, your fork has the wide flat disk which makes it look wrong, when it actually isn't.
If it bothers you, fill the gap with some kind of caulking.
BTW - it's also possible that the disk is actually part of the original headset that you forgot to remove. It's a possibility I'd explore by setting a punch against it and seeing if it moves up with gentle prodding.
In this case the crown's seat is the flat zone near the center, and the bevel is to provide clearance in the event that the seating area isn't perfectly flat. On most forks you wouldn't have noticed, because the seat area is relative small and the fork slopes away from it.
However, your fork has the wide flat disk which makes it look wrong, when it actually isn't.
If it bothers you, fill the gap with some kind of caulking.
BTW - it's also possible that the disk is actually part of the original headset that you forgot to remove. It's a possibility I'd explore by setting a punch against it and seeing if it moves up with gentle prodding.
03-14-23, 06:31 PM
#11
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
You must gave far more experience than me. I have NEVER seen a cartridge bearing headset that didn't use a conical system top and bottom to locate the bearing and stabilize it for radial loads.
In any case, the OP clearly stated it came with a split crown race, and even included photos of it. So why would insist he doesn't need one.
In any case, the OP clearly stated it came with a split crown race, and even included photos of it. So why would insist he doesn't need one.
The split crown race came with the headset kit, not the fork.
03-14-23, 06:36 PM
#12
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart
These cartridge bearinged headsets generally wanr the cartridge riding on the beveled face and not the bearing's ID or OD. Otherwise why add cost and grind that bevel. The ID and OD should be sliding fits over the crown seat and within the head tube (or cups) ends.
The split seat ring is often what is locating the upper bearing's top side. The split ring can "float" along the steerer to allow for preload adjustment and the split will let it keep the bearing coaxial to the steerer as it compresses around the steerer. Is there another conical ring with a split in it in the packaging? Andy
The split seat ring is often what is locating the upper bearing's top side. The split ring can "float" along the steerer to allow for preload adjustment and the split will let it keep the bearing coaxial to the steerer as it compresses around the steerer. Is there another conical ring with a split in it in the packaging? Andy
03-14-23, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by digger
Ah, I see that makes sense now. No, that disk is part of the fork tubing, there's no seam there. Thank you, that helps a lot.
FWIW another reason for the dish shaped bottom is for removal. It's not critical on a split crown, but imagine removing a pressed crown race if there weren't a gap underneath the lower rim.
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03-14-23, 07:50 PM
#14
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
OK, you're all set, and free to deal with the cosmetics of the gap if you wish.
FWIW another reason for the dish shaped bottom is for removal. It's not critical on a split crown, but imagine removing a pressed crown race if there weren't a gap underneath the lower rim.
FWIW another reason for the dish shaped bottom is for removal. It's not critical on a split crown, but imagine removing a pressed crown race if there weren't a gap underneath the lower rim.
When I put the split race on it just didn’t look right, so I thought I did something wrong.
With the exception of the star nut, thus tool free headset gig is awesome sauce.
Thank you again, and you can send me the bill for your services.
03-14-23, 09:11 PM
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The only Risk product I want in life is a game distributed by Hasbro! Not a headset. If I am looking for a cheap reliable headset Cane Creek 40 series all day every day without question. Never had an issue with one, I don't think many people have. They might be more expensive then a no-name but are much less of a risk and always a good buy. I think aside from Chris King (usually for 1" threaded) and buying a White Industries headset (it was blue and purdy) Cane Creek is about all I use for pretty much all my bikes. One bike has come with an Acros headset but no plans to replace that yet until I have an issue but that came with the bike and it also has a block lock feature which is nice.
03-14-23, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by veganbikes
The only Risk product I want in life is a game distributed by Hasbro! Not a headset....
The reality here is that all was good from the beginning. It ONLY looked wrong because the big flat washer made it look funny.
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03-14-23, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
Risk?....It's a %$#&@ headset. The ONLY risk is it wearing out sooner than some other headset.
The reality here is that all was good from the beginning. It ONLY looked wrong because the big flat washer made it look funny.
The reality here is that all was good from the beginning. It ONLY looked wrong because the big flat washer made it look funny.
03-14-23, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by veganbikes
The headset brand is Risk, I wasn't saying the actual headset was risky at least not from a safety standpoinyt (maybe financial).
I guess I'm too conditioned to "You can die" posts on BF.
Last edited by FBinNY; 03-14-23 at 10:18 PM.
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03-14-23, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
You must gave far more experience than me. I have NEVER seen a cartridge bearing headset that didn't use a conical system top and bottom to locate the bearing and stabilize it for radial loads.
In any case, the OP clearly stated it came with a split crown race, and even included photos of it. So why would insist he doesn't need one.
In any case, the OP clearly stated it came with a split crown race, and even included photos of it. So why would insist he doesn't need one.
and i'd suggest that the conical seat is not a good design, in this instance. Radiused bottom mating surface and Height/Diameter of top "cone" are both suspect.
I have two new Integrated Cartridge headsets here.. both have solid Crown races with a shallower height.
One of those kits can fit up with a shim or two onto a wide seat as the OP's Pictures show... Two shims came with the Headset.
a semi-integrated bike i work on has a setup that requires the "two shims, as needed" to fit up correctly. The Bearing sets directly on the shim(s). not on a conical seat.
Kit Brands? Ritchey and Cane Creek.
the semi-integrated bike has an FSA headset kit mounted up right now... no crown race used, but was supplied.
i should mention that the Semi-int. bike is a CX bike and has carried a 225lb.(claimed weight) rider through many races and a lot of general abuse, wheelies, and outlandish stunts, while showing off to his buddies.
Last edited by maddog34; 03-14-23 at 11:28 PM.
03-15-23, 12:06 AM
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[QUOTE=maddog34;22829954]Look at the Measurements, Francis. It's a press fit onto the fork.....
The OP said SPLIT, and it's clearly visible as confirmation. But feel free to insist otherwise. It's moot now because the OP has it together and working.
FWIW the ONLY issue was the cosmetic mismatch between the footed centering cone and wide flat disc on the fork.
Footed crown races, shaped like the bottom of a dish are SOP on press fit models to make removal easier. That's not necessary on a split race (cone) but I assume they simply added the split to the existing version.
The OP said SPLIT, and it's clearly visible as confirmation. But feel free to insist otherwise. It's moot now because the OP has it together and working.
FWIW the ONLY issue was the cosmetic mismatch between the footed centering cone and wide flat disc on the fork.
Footed crown races, shaped like the bottom of a dish are SOP on press fit models to make removal easier. That's not necessary on a split race (cone) but I assume they simply added the split to the existing version.
Last edited by FBinNY; 03-15-23 at 12:16 AM.
03-15-23, 02:34 AM
#21
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I was waiting for comment on the "Risk" brand name. I've installed several threadless and threaded headsets over my cycling career, and although an integrated headset is a first for me, I feel the machining and the look and feel of the headset seems quite good. It is just that the wide base of the fork threw me off when I installed the split race, I thought I had done something wrong, so I thought to ask you fine folk.
So I took a Risk (see what I did there) and decided to give it a try for $22. I do agree with you that you do get what you pay for....usually, but not always. Some of the boutique brands can be way over-priced, nice stuff, oh yes, but a Chris King headset for $375 USD or $512 CDN, is just too rich for my blood.
These small companies, like all companies, had to start small, and I think that 'Risk' would not be a good brand name to use. BUT, by that same logic the bike frame I bought is called "Fyxation" a company in Milwaukee, so I guess I will be taking a Risk buying this frame-set because I'll be constantly fixing it...says so right in the name.
I also purchased the Sensah brand of cycling products (RD, cassette, chain, crank and levers) for this bike as well. I did not want to use Shimano because, well, it does have 'no' right in the name. In all seriousness, the Sensah products cost me $500 whereas Shimano GRX would be running me well over $1,500. Why am I going cheap? This is a travel bike I am building up (added S and S couplers, which were not cheap) so I can take it down and travel. I am concerned, this day and age, about the bike getting damaged or lost when I fly with it, so I did not want to lose $2,500 to $3,000 but $1,500 would be easier to swallow.
Like maddog34 suggested, I too thought it might be an integrated crown race; press fit the bearing onto the fork. So I tried just placing the bearing on the fork with no split crown race, nope, you can feel the bearing dragging on that wide disk/plate on top of the fork. Too be sure, I emailed the company to ask, and I received a response yesterday evening. I do not think they are stating that a split crown race is an issue, just that they have never used one.
So I took a Risk (see what I did there) and decided to give it a try for $22. I do agree with you that you do get what you pay for....usually, but not always. Some of the boutique brands can be way over-priced, nice stuff, oh yes, but a Chris King headset for $375 USD or $512 CDN, is just too rich for my blood.
These small companies, like all companies, had to start small, and I think that 'Risk' would not be a good brand name to use. BUT, by that same logic the bike frame I bought is called "Fyxation" a company in Milwaukee, so I guess I will be taking a Risk buying this frame-set because I'll be constantly fixing it...says so right in the name.
I also purchased the Sensah brand of cycling products (RD, cassette, chain, crank and levers) for this bike as well. I did not want to use Shimano because, well, it does have 'no' right in the name. In all seriousness, the Sensah products cost me $500 whereas Shimano GRX would be running me well over $1,500. Why am I going cheap? This is a travel bike I am building up (added S and S couplers, which were not cheap) so I can take it down and travel. I am concerned, this day and age, about the bike getting damaged or lost when I fly with it, so I did not want to lose $2,500 to $3,000 but $1,500 would be easier to swallow.
Like maddog34 suggested, I too thought it might be an integrated crown race; press fit the bearing onto the fork. So I tried just placing the bearing on the fork with no split crown race, nope, you can feel the bearing dragging on that wide disk/plate on top of the fork. Too be sure, I emailed the company to ask, and I received a response yesterday evening. I do not think they are stating that a split crown race is an issue, just that they have never used one.
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03-15-23, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by maddog34
and after looking at several integrated headsets online...plus recalling ones i've installed... NONE of them had a split Crown race.. that may just be the FSA, Cane Creek, and Aheadset kits i buy... The crown race is usually a press fit solid RING, and it .
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03-15-23, 08:19 PM
#23
Clark W. Griswold
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
Sorry about that. It never occurred to me that someone would go with such a dumb brand name.
I guess I'm too conditioned to "You can die" posts on BF.
I guess I'm too conditioned to "You can die" posts on BF.
03-22-23, 11:56 AM
#24
Clark W. Griswold
Join Date: Mar 2014
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digger I just re-read the post you made about Chris King and I don't know what numbers you are getting. I went to the CK website the DropSet is $176 and all of their cupped headsets are $207 granted yes that would be USD but it still gets nowhere near any of the prices you are quoting. The only headsets from CK that would get up that high is maybe an old Titanium cupped Nothreadset or something super rare limited edition they no longer make. A Cane Creek 40 series would be about $52.99 and a 110 series which are quite nice would be 143.99.
I would be curious how you got such heavily inflated numbers? Maybe it is a little bit more in Canada, but to get $100-200 more just seems a bit off.
I would be curious how you got such heavily inflated numbers? Maybe it is a little bit more in Canada, but to get $100-200 more just seems a bit off.
03-22-23, 01:45 PM
#25
Senior Member
Originally Posted by veganbikes
digger I just re-read the post you made about Chris King and I don't know what numbers you are getting. I went to the CK website the DropSet is $176 and all of their cupped headsets are $207 granted yes that would be USD but it still gets nowhere near any of the prices you are quoting. The only headsets from CK that would get up that high is maybe an old Titanium cupped Nothreadset or something super rare limited edition they no longer make. A Cane Creek 40 series would be about $52.99 and a 110 series which are quite nice would be 143.99.
I would be curious how you got such heavily inflated numbers? Maybe it is a little bit more in Canada, but to get $100-200 more just seems a bit off.
I would be curious how you got such heavily inflated numbers? Maybe it is a little bit more in Canada, but to get $100-200 more just seems a bit off.
Now, add in the exchange rate ($1CAD = $0.73 USD). Assuming $40US for shipping/handling, a $207US item is now up to ($207 + 40) / 0.73 = $338+CAD. And we haven't even talked Canadian import taxes, which I understand are fairly high on some items. But even if the import taxes are only 10%, that brings the total for a $207 USD headset to about $372CAD - which is about what the OP mentioned for the lower end of his price range. And Canadian customs duties on bike parts may well be higher than 10%.
Last edited by Hondo6; 03-22-23 at 01:51 PM.
