Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Bicycle Mechanics
Reload this Page >

Impossible to index RD. SM-9100.

Notices
Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

Impossible to index RD. SM-9100.

Old 06-20-23, 04:59 PM
  #1  
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 95
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked 12 Times in 8 Posts
Impossible to index RD. SM-9100.

Purchased a SH bike from somebody at the club but after a few rides I started to notice skipping gears when putting the power down so decided to investigate before I ended up having an accident. At first I thought the gears were slightly out. No matter how much I turned that screw it was never perfect with the onus being on it wanting to go one way or the other perhaps.

I noted a delay in upshifts so initially put it down to drag in the cable even though unclamping it and feeling it by hand felt OK. The housings were slightly corroded at the metal core and the once clear inner-routed sheaths had turned grey with dirt so it would made sense... so I thought. I replaced the bog-standard untreated steel cables with some high-end Dura Ace cable as recommended to use with this drivetrain.

The same issue remains.

Eyeballing the mech hanger I cannot see any misalignment - the pulleys look to be in line with the cassette. The H/L/B settings are all dialed in to spec. The chain is not worn and nor is the cassette which also displays zero play on the freehub.

WWYD from here? Is it time to try a new derailleur hanger perhaps and keep my fingers crossed that it isn't the shifter?

Last edited by dja1; 06-20-23 at 05:02 PM.
dja1 is offline  
Old 06-20-23, 05:22 PM
  #2  
LRP=HR
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 2,225

Bikes: 1981 Holdsworth Special, 1993 C-dale MT3000 & 1996 F700CAD3, 2018 & 2019 Cervelo R3s & 2022 R5, JustGo Runt, Ridley Oval, Kickr Bike 8-)

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 886 Post(s)
Liked 1,235 Times in 714 Posts
Hanger alignment is tough to eyeball.
I'd check that first, before throwing parts at it.

Barry
Barry2 is offline  
Likes For Barry2:
Old 06-20-23, 05:45 PM
  #3  
Senior Member
 
Trakhak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 5,565
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2592 Post(s)
Liked 3,118 Times in 1,773 Posts
"skipping gears"---is the chain wandering sideways from one sprocket to another, or is it staying on one sprocket but jerking forward under pedal pressure?
Trakhak is offline  
Likes For Trakhak:
Old 06-20-23, 06:59 PM
  #4  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 592
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 95 Post(s)
Liked 152 Times in 106 Posts
If by skipping you mean it’s skipping in the same gear when under a heavy load then it sounds like a new chain mated to a worn cog.
ARider2 is offline  
Likes For ARider2:
Old 06-21-23, 12:30 AM
  #5  
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 95
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked 12 Times in 8 Posts
Originally Posted by Trakhak
"skipping gears"---is the chain wandering sideways from one sprocket to another, or is it staying on one sprocket but jerking forward under pedal pressure?
Was ghost shifting I believe, but now I simply can't get it to index perfectly. I've got to put too much tension in the cable to get it indexed.

Once I do get it indexed, if I put it in middle gears then can hear the chain click as though it wants to shift down - loosening the cable will quieten this but then it doesn't want to shift down/hesitates the from the higher gears. If that makes sense?

Last edited by dja1; 06-21-23 at 02:29 AM.
dja1 is offline  
Old 06-21-23, 12:32 AM
  #6  
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 95
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked 12 Times in 8 Posts
Originally Posted by ARider2
If by skipping you mean its skipping in the same gear when under a heavy load then it sounds like a new chain mated to a worn cog.
Not just under load.. I cannot get the indexing perfect which I believe is causing issues under load when a gear change is not perfect.
​​
i do have a known good casette to try but I suspect it won't fix the indexing
dja1 is offline  
Old 06-21-23, 03:34 AM
  #7  
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 95
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked 12 Times in 8 Posts
In the workstand again, get the shifting right, cycle right through the gears multiple times without issue then all of a sudden it hesitates to downshift from the highest gears. Had to tighter the cable loads. It's still almost like theres drag in the system but it doesn't make sense because this was fully replaced.

1 & 1/2 full turns to get it to shift. Lo and behold it is real noisy in the middle of the block again because there is too much tension in the cable and it wants to move further down the block and will occasionally try to jump down two gears before settling back up to the one I shifted to.

Take the tension out the cable and I'm back to square one with the derailleur wanting to move up the block/hesitating down.

Adjustment just seems to make the issue self-perpetuating and creates other problems as described.

Last edited by dja1; 06-21-23 at 04:18 AM.
dja1 is offline  
Old 06-21-23, 04:27 AM
  #8  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 2,272
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 716 Post(s)
Liked 807 Times in 479 Posts
Is this an internally routed cable? A friend had one that was impossible to get it to shift correctly through all of the gears. The clue to the problem was that it was different when in the large chainring. It turned out that the front and rear cables were crossed, inside the frame, and the tension was never consistent because the front cable would absorb some of the tension as you shifted.
dsaul is offline  
Old 06-21-23, 05:15 AM
  #9  
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 95
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked 12 Times in 8 Posts
Originally Posted by dsaul
Is this an internally routed cable? A friend had one that was impossible to get it to shift correctly through all of the gears. The clue to the problem was that it was different when in the large chainring. It turned out that the front and rear cables were crossed, inside the frame, and the tension was never consistent because the front cable would absorb some of the tension as you shifted.
Not this. Even if they were crossed then the cables wouldn't be touching as they are also routed through brand new jagwire slicklube tubing which I have left in the frame when backfeeding the old cables - I think the manufacturer calls for this, presumably to avoid the cables rubbing against the carbon frame.

​​
dja1 is offline  
Old 06-21-23, 06:04 AM
  #10  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Golden, CO and Tucson, AZ
Posts: 2,849

Bikes: 2012 Specialized Elite Disc, 1983 Trek 520

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 681 Post(s)
Liked 755 Times in 435 Posts
It sounds like you replaced the cable, but not the housings. Try that next. Start with the rear loop.
andrewclaus is offline  
Old 06-21-23, 06:07 AM
  #11  
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 95
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked 12 Times in 8 Posts
Originally Posted by andrewclaus
It sounds like you replaced the cable, but not the housings. Try that next. Start with the rear loop.
Cables, housings and inner routed sheathing were all replaced with brand new using a Dura Ace set/sp41/jagwire slicklube.
​​​​

Last edited by dja1; 06-21-23 at 06:11 AM.
dja1 is offline  
Old 06-21-23, 06:42 AM
  #12  
Expired Member
 
shelbyfv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: TN
Posts: 11,820
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3777 Post(s)
Liked 5,738 Times in 2,898 Posts
Why not try the new cassette?
shelbyfv is offline  
Old 06-21-23, 07:51 AM
  #13  
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 95
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked 12 Times in 8 Posts
Originally Posted by shelbyfv
Why not try the new cassette?
I have just removed the cassette and replaced it with a same spec 11sp one which I know has only done circa. 1500mi from new with a 1500mi chain - so I know is good. Checked the wheel for alignment in the dropouts and clamped it down.

I don't want to speak too soon, but it might have worked. I'm going to keep playing with the gears and see, but I could be onto something.

I thought a worn cassette would only really show itself with the chain jumping over the teeth, or gears totally skipping under load and not simple indexing issues.

Last edited by dja1; 06-21-23 at 07:56 AM.
dja1 is offline  
Likes For dja1:
Old 06-21-23, 11:52 AM
  #14  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Golden, CO and Tucson, AZ
Posts: 2,849

Bikes: 2012 Specialized Elite Disc, 1983 Trek 520

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 681 Post(s)
Liked 755 Times in 435 Posts
Originally Posted by dja1
...I thought a worn cassette would only really show itself with the chain jumping over the teeth, or gears totally skipping under load and not simple indexing issues.
Sometimes you gotta claim AM/FM. Absolutely mystifying, f---ing magic. Hope it works out.
andrewclaus is offline  
Old 06-21-23, 02:07 PM
  #15  
Habitual User
 
Eric F's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Altadena, CA
Posts: 8,157

Bikes: 2023 Niner RLT 9 RDO, 2018 Trek Procaliber 9.9 RSL, 2018 Storck Fascenario.3 Platinum, 2003 Time VX Special Pro, 2001 Colnago VIP, 1999 Trek 9900 singlespeed, 1977 Nishiki ONP

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5057 Post(s)
Liked 8,333 Times in 3,934 Posts
I had an issue with my gravel bike where I just could not get it to index properly. After going though even more variables than you have, I decided to buy a good-quality derailleur hanger alignment tool. That was it!! Despite looking fine to my eyeballs, the hanger was pretty far out of alignment. Once properly aligned, the indexing issues disappeared. I checked all my bikes, and found that they were all at least a little bit off. Even bikes that shifted okay got even better - smoother, quieter, quicker.
__________________
"Swedish fish. They're protein shaped." - livedarklions
Eric F is offline  
Likes For Eric F:
Old 06-22-23, 05:09 PM
  #16  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 3,742

Bikes: Too many bikes, too little time to ride

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 457 Post(s)
Liked 487 Times in 336 Posts
Originally Posted by Barry2
Hanger alignment is tough to eyeball.
I'd check that first, before throwing parts at it.

Barry
Originally Posted by Eric F
I had an issue with my gravel bike where I just could not get it to index properly. After going though even more variables than you have, I decided to buy a good-quality derailleur hanger alignment tool. That was it!! Despite looking fine to my eyeballs, the hanger was pretty far out of alignment. Once properly aligned, the indexing issues disappeared. I checked all my bikes, and found that they were all at least a little bit off. Even bikes that shifted okay got even better - smoother, quieter, quicker.
This. Doesn't take much to get the hanger slightly out of alignment. Heck it could even be as simple as a derailleur hanger fixing bolt coming loose.
tFUnK is offline  
Likes For tFUnK:
Old 06-22-23, 05:38 PM
  #17  
Expired Member
 
shelbyfv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: TN
Posts: 11,820
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3777 Post(s)
Liked 5,738 Times in 2,898 Posts
My new Cannondale has the derailleur hanger and the thru axle drop out/ socket or whatever it's called, in one piece attached to the frame by a tiny screw that would seem more appropriate in an electronic device. I was having some random shifting but it wasn't until I had trouble securing the thru axle that I investigated. The little screw was mostly backed out and the whole business was jiggling around. I think some loctite is in order and a spare hanger and screw before they become unobtainable. They don't seem able to resist proprietary weirdness.
shelbyfv is offline  
Old 06-22-23, 05:44 PM
  #18  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 3,742

Bikes: Too many bikes, too little time to ride

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 457 Post(s)
Liked 487 Times in 336 Posts
Originally Posted by shelbyfv
My new Cannondale has the derailleur hanger and the thru axle drop out/ socket or whatever it's called, in one piece attached to the frame by a tiny screw that would seem more appropriate in an electronic device. I was having some random shifting but it wasn't until I had trouble securing the thru axle that I investigated. The little screw was mostly backed out and the whole business was jiggling around. I think some loctite is in order and a spare hanger and screw before they become unobtainable. They don't seem able to resist proprietary weirdness.
Incidentally, two of my older Cannondale frames (QR) also had backed-out or missing hanger screws🤔
tFUnK is offline  
Likes For tFUnK:
Old 06-22-23, 06:13 PM
  #19  
Senior Member
 
maddog34's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: NW Oregon
Posts: 2,986

Bikes: !982 Trek 930R Custom, Diamondback ascent with SERIOUS updates, Fuji Team Pro CF and a '09 Comencal Meta 5.5

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1301 Post(s)
Liked 744 Times in 538 Posts
Originally Posted by dja1
I have just removed the cassette and replaced it with a same spec 11sp one which I know has only done circa. 1500mi from new with a 1500mi chain - so I know is good. Checked the wheel for alignment in the dropouts and clamped it down.

I don't want to speak too soon, but it might have worked. I'm going to keep playing with the gears and see, but I could be onto something.

I thought a worn cassette would only really show itself with the chain jumping over the teeth, or gears totally skipping under load and not simple indexing issues.
so.. a newer chain and cassette made it better... hmmm.. i'd be suspecting a loose upper roller or a der. out of alignment in the front-to-back plane... IE: twisted on the Vertical axis. the less-rounded teeth of the newer cassette is holding the chain to the correct gear better.... same for the newer chain...

I'm not seeing that you actually used a proper Hanger Alignment Gauge on the bike yet... i advise doing so, if you haven't already.
I'd also check the rollers and CAGE for any looseness.. Loose roller screws can cause the same symptoms, and ruin a der. cage in a hurry.

Last edited by maddog34; 06-22-23 at 06:19 PM.
maddog34 is offline  
Old 06-23-23, 01:45 AM
  #20  
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 95
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked 12 Times in 8 Posts
Originally Posted by maddog34
so.. a newer chain and cassette made it better... hmmm.. i'd be suspecting a loose upper roller or a der. out of alignment in the front-to-back plane... IE: twisted on the Vertical axis. the less-rounded teeth of the newer cassette is holding the chain to the correct gear better.... same for the newer chain...

I'm not seeing that you actually used a proper Hanger Alignment Gauge on the bike yet... i advise doing so, if you haven't already.
I'd also check the rollers and CAGE for any looseness.. Loose roller screws can cause the same symptoms, and ruin a der. cage in a hurry.
Only a newer cassette. The chain on it isn't worn anyway.

Yes I'm still looking at picking one up as it would be a useful tool to have.

Wondering if the problem could have been caused by the wheel not quite being aligned in the dropouts, perhaps. The cassette which I swapped from the problem bike onto my older also bike shifts fine on that -

​​​​​​edit: that is other than the fact that it's a different tooth count, 'problem' cadette doesn't want to go into the lowest gear but that's just an issue of chain length I presume.

Last edited by dja1; 06-23-23 at 06:19 AM.
dja1 is offline  
Old 06-23-23, 10:21 PM
  #21  
Senior Member
 
oldbobcat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Boulder County, CO
Posts: 4,434

Bikes: '80 Masi Gran Criterium, '12 Trek Madone, early '60s Frejus track

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 523 Post(s)
Liked 462 Times in 348 Posts
Go to the Park Tool videos on derailleur adjustment and start from the beginning. You aren't going to get it from random twiddling of screws and cable adjusters and hunches from people who can't see your bike.
oldbobcat is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.