Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Bicycle Mechanics
Reload this Page >

Rim replaced after broken spokes.

Notices
Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

Rim replaced after broken spokes.

Old 08-10-23, 02:05 PM
  #1  
old newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Posts: 949

Bikes: Specialized Roubaix

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 600 Post(s)
Liked 399 Times in 207 Posts
Rim replaced after broken spokes.

Last fall I had a couple of spokes break on a DY Swiss 3.0 rim with Axis hub. That was a 30 spoke rim on the rear of my 2012 Specialized Roubaix. I suspected my weight at 270+ had something to do with it.
A local shop built a 36 spoke Rhyno Lite rim with Shimano 105 hub and it has held up with no problems.
I am down to 238 and dropping. I think I want my DT Swiss rim back on the bike- because it is lighter and will match my front rim.

Should I go ahead and have all of the spokes replaced? The 2 that broke broke in the middle of the spoke. There was speculation about possible inclusions.
pepperbelly is offline  
Old 08-10-23, 03:06 PM
  #2  
Really Old Senior Member
 
Bill Kapaun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Mid Willamette Valley, Orygun
Posts: 13,954

Bikes: 87 RockHopper,2008 Specialized Globe. Both upgraded to 9 speeds. 2019 Giant Explore E+3

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1829 Post(s)
Liked 1,315 Times in 907 Posts
Originally Posted by pepperbelly
...Should I go ahead and have all of the spokes replaced? The 2 that broke broke in the middle of the spoke. There was speculation about possible inclusions.
Normally, spokes don't break in the middle unless there's obvious (edited add) mechanical damage or a "chemical" influence. You'll probably see a tiny black speck at the break, if so.
The general rule around here seems to be on the 3rd break, replace them all. You're close.

I question 30 spokes? Typically, the total number is divisible by 4 unless a custom lacing such as 20 DS & 10 radial spoked NDS. Even then, 30 sounds a bit odd.

Last edited by Bill Kapaun; 08-10-23 at 03:15 PM.
Bill Kapaun is offline  
Likes For Bill Kapaun:
Old 08-10-23, 03:14 PM
  #3  
old newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Posts: 949

Bikes: Specialized Roubaix

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 600 Post(s)
Liked 399 Times in 207 Posts
Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun
Normally, spokes don't break in the middle unless there's a "chemical" influence. You;ll probably see a tiny black speck at the break, if so.
The general rule around here seems to be on the 3rd break, replace them all. You're close.

I question 30 spokes? Typically, the total number is divisible by 4 unless a custom lacing such as 20 DS & 10 radial spoked NDS. Even then, 30 sounds a bit odd.
That was questioned in the thread last year. I counted them several times. The rear wheel has 30 spokes.
pepperbelly is offline  
Old 08-10-23, 03:17 PM
  #4  
Senior Member
 
maddog34's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: NW Oregon
Posts: 3,013

Bikes: !982 Trek 930R Custom, Diamondback ascent with SERIOUS updates, Fuji Team Pro CF and a '09 Comencal Meta 5.5

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1314 Post(s)
Liked 763 Times in 553 Posts
i just emailed a local wheel building shop two days ago.. needed some spokes for a build, customer suggested DT... the wheel shop has quit selling DT anything... they now stock Sapim spokes from Belgium...hint. hint.
maddog34 is offline  
Old 08-10-23, 03:43 PM
  #5  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 39,077

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 141 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5983 Post(s)
Liked 2,913 Times in 1,618 Posts
The stainless steel used in spokes is vulnerable to attack by chlorine ions, like those in salt (sodium chloride). For most people, most of the time, this isn't an issue because a process called passivation does a great job preventing attack.

Whenever I hear of multiple spokes breaking in odd places, my first thought is that the maker failed to properly do this final step. The keys are multiple odd breaks because if this is the issue ALL the spokes in that production lot would be affected. So, on a wheel like this I absolutely would not replace individual spokes, since the remaining ones are doomed.

Sometimes, but not always, chloride damage is visible as tiny black dots that look like mildew. However you may test by grabbing spokes across the wheel and squeezing hard. The brittleness caused by chlorine will cause failure at fairly low loads. Sometimes chloride affected spokes will fail in storage as their tensile strength drops below the spoke tension.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.

Last edited by FBinNY; 08-10-23 at 04:09 PM.
FBinNY is online now  
Likes For FBinNY:
Old 08-10-23, 03:56 PM
  #6  
old newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Posts: 949

Bikes: Specialized Roubaix

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 600 Post(s)
Liked 399 Times in 207 Posts
Originally Posted by FBinNY
The stainless steel used in spokes is vulnerable to attack by chlorine ions, likhttps://www.google.com/search?client...tainless+steele those in salt (sodium chloride). For most people, most of the time, this isn't an issue because a process called passivation does a great job preventing attack.

Whenever I hear of multiple spokes breaking in odd places, my first thought is that the maker failed to properly do this final step. The keys are multiple odd breaks because if this is the issue ALL the spokes in that production lot would be affected. So, on a wheel like this I absolutely would not replace individual spokes, since the remaining ones are doomed.

Sometimes, but not always, chloride damage is visible as tine black dots that look like mildew. However you may test by grabbing spokes across the wheel and squeezing hard. The brittleness caused by chlorine will cause failure at fairly low loads. Sometimes chloride affected spokes will fail in storage as their tensile strength drops below the spoke tension.
My spokes are black. I squeezed them in several places-none broke.
pepperbelly is offline  
Old 08-10-23, 04:08 PM
  #7  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 39,077

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 141 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5983 Post(s)
Liked 2,913 Times in 1,618 Posts
Originally Posted by pepperbelly
My spokes are black. I squeezed them in several places-none broke.
OK so maybe not chloride attack, but then again 2 odd breaks in a single wheel is a highly suspicious coincidence. You might also look at the broken ends. A new fracture should be silvery like new SS, if the end is black or partly black that's evidence corrosion attacking the steel progressively until the healthy section let go.

So while I can't confirm the problem, 2 spokes in the same wheel failing mysteriously is more than enough for me to lose confidence in the rest.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is online now  
Likes For FBinNY:
Old 08-10-23, 04:11 PM
  #8  
old newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Posts: 949

Bikes: Specialized Roubaix

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 600 Post(s)
Liked 399 Times in 207 Posts
Originally Posted by FBinNY
OK so maybe not chloride attack, but then again 2 odd breaks in a single wheel is a highly suspicious coincidence. You might also look at the broken ends. A new fracture should be silvery like new SS, if the end is black or partly black that's evidence corrosion attacking the steel progressively until the healthy section let go.

So while I can't confirm the problem, 2 spokes in the same wheel failing mysteriously is more than enough for me to lose confidence in the rest.
Both broke at different times but I weight a lot more when they broke.
The broken ends are clean and shiny.
Does a 30 spoke wheel have trouble with a heavy rider?
pepperbelly is offline  
Old 08-10-23, 04:24 PM
  #9  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Elevation 666m Edmonton Canada
Posts: 2,520

Bikes: 2013 Custom SA5w / Rohloff Tourster

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1267 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times in 256 Posts
Picture or it didn't happen ....
GamblerGORD53 is offline  
Old 08-10-23, 04:33 PM
  #10  
old newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Posts: 949

Bikes: Specialized Roubaix

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 600 Post(s)
Liked 399 Times in 207 Posts
Originally Posted by GamblerGORD53
Picture or it didn't happen ....
What do you want a pic of? The whole wheel or the end of the broken spoke? I didn’t have the second one replaced.
pepperbelly is offline  
Old 08-10-23, 04:42 PM
  #11  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Elevation 666m Edmonton Canada
Posts: 2,520

Bikes: 2013 Custom SA5w / Rohloff Tourster

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1267 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times in 256 Posts
Whole wheels and bike.
GamblerGORD53 is offline  
Old 08-10-23, 04:51 PM
  #12  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 39,077

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 141 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5983 Post(s)
Liked 2,913 Times in 1,618 Posts
Originally Posted by pepperbelly
Both broke at different times but I weight a lot more when they broke.
The broken ends are clean and shiny.
Does a 30 spoke wheel have trouble with a heavy rider?
Your weight might explain why spokes broke, but not how.

As I said before, spoke breakage not at the end is a mystery that wants explanation. 2 breaks like that is far too much coincidence to ignore.

So, absent some reason to change my mind, I'd have ZERO confidence in the rest of those spokes.

However, regardless of what I might do or say, it's your wheel, and therefore your decision. You might get quotes for both options, and let that guide you.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is online now  
Old 08-10-23, 05:00 PM
  #13  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Elevation 666m Edmonton Canada
Posts: 2,520

Bikes: 2013 Custom SA5w / Rohloff Tourster

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1267 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times in 256 Posts
Or is this one of those goofball wheels with irregular spaced spokes with 2 or 3 spokes in a group??
GamblerGORD53 is offline  
Old 08-10-23, 05:15 PM
  #14  
old newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Posts: 949

Bikes: Specialized Roubaix

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 600 Post(s)
Liked 399 Times in 207 Posts
Originally Posted by FBinNY
Your weight might explain why spokes broke, but not how.

As I said before, spoke breakage not at the end is a mystery that wants explanation. 2 breaks like that is far too much coincidence to ignore.

So, absent some reason to change my mind, I'd have ZERO confidence in the rest of those spokes.

However, regardless of what I might do or say, it's your wheel, and therefore your decision. You might get quotes for both options, and let that guide you.
I will get pics later.
pepperbelly is offline  
Old 08-10-23, 05:16 PM
  #15  
old newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Posts: 949

Bikes: Specialized Roubaix

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 600 Post(s)
Liked 399 Times in 207 Posts
Originally Posted by GamblerGORD53
Or is this one of those goofball wheels with irregular spaced spokes with 2 or 3 spokes in a group??
I am not familiar enough with bicycles to answer that.
I bought the bike used.
pepperbelly is offline  
Old 08-10-23, 05:53 PM
  #16  
old newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Posts: 949

Bikes: Specialized Roubaix

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 600 Post(s)
Liked 399 Times in 207 Posts


I noticed there was a spoke that had been replaced sometime before me-there are 2 stainless spokes.
pepperbelly is offline  
Old 08-10-23, 05:56 PM
  #17  
old newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Posts: 949

Bikes: Specialized Roubaix

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 600 Post(s)
Liked 399 Times in 207 Posts
It looks like it does have 3 spoke groups.
What is that for?
pepperbelly is offline  
Old 08-10-23, 07:00 PM
  #18  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 39,077

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 141 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5983 Post(s)
Liked 2,913 Times in 1,618 Posts
Originally Posted by pepperbelly
It looks like it does have 3 spoke groups.
What is that for?
6th
Lots of fancy sounding technical explanations, but really, it boils down to cool factor.

With 3 spokes crossing in the same place, you might look for worn notches at the crosses if that's where the spokes broke. However if they didn't break exactly there, it's still a mystery.
FBinNY is online now  
Old 08-10-23, 07:16 PM
  #19  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Elevation 666m Edmonton Canada
Posts: 2,520

Bikes: 2013 Custom SA5w / Rohloff Tourster

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1267 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times in 256 Posts
I'll be darned, there are 30 spokes and that is a goofball build alright, that I haven't noticed before.
There's 20 spokes with 1 cross and 10 spokes straight pull. The broken ones are all STRAIGHT pull.
So all I can say is this wheel sucks for big loads. So closet this wheel and keep using the heavy one. IMO

Last edited by GamblerGORD53; 08-10-23 at 07:20 PM.
GamblerGORD53 is offline  
Likes For GamblerGORD53:
Old 08-10-23, 07:23 PM
  #20  
old newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Posts: 949

Bikes: Specialized Roubaix

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 600 Post(s)
Liked 399 Times in 207 Posts
Originally Posted by GamblerGORD53
I'll be darned, there are 30 spokes and that is a goofball build alright, that I haven't noticed before.
There's 20 spokes with 1 cross and 10 spokes straight pull. The broken ones are all STRAIGHT pull.
So all I can say is this wheel sucks for big loads. So closet this wheel and keep using the heavy one. IMO
What do you consider a big load?
pepperbelly is offline  
Old 08-10-23, 07:28 PM
  #21  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Elevation 666m Edmonton Canada
Posts: 2,520

Bikes: 2013 Custom SA5w / Rohloff Tourster

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1267 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times in 256 Posts
I'm not a CF racer rider. Pros are max 160 lbs I think.
So my guess is that wheel is good for a 200 lbs rider.
GamblerGORD53 is offline  
Likes For GamblerGORD53:
Old 08-10-23, 08:06 PM
  #22  
Really Old Senior Member
 
Bill Kapaun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Mid Willamette Valley, Orygun
Posts: 13,954

Bikes: 87 RockHopper,2008 Specialized Globe. Both upgraded to 9 speeds. 2019 Giant Explore E+3

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1829 Post(s)
Liked 1,315 Times in 907 Posts
Originally Posted by GamblerGORD53
I'll be darned, there are 30 spokes and that is a goofball build alright, that I haven't noticed before.
There's 20 spokes with 1 cross and 10 spokes straight pull. The broken ones are all STRAIGHT pull.
So all I can say is this wheel sucks for big loads. So closet this wheel and keep using the heavy one. IMO
Those are NOT straight pull spokes. They are radially laced.
The other spokes are cross 2 AFAICT.
Just because you haven't seen it before doesn't make it anything.
Twice as many spokes on the DS than the NDS is not a new concept, although I've never seen 20-10.

Last edited by Bill Kapaun; 08-10-23 at 08:19 PM.
Bill Kapaun is offline  
Old 08-10-23, 08:06 PM
  #23  
old newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Posts: 949

Bikes: Specialized Roubaix

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 600 Post(s)
Liked 399 Times in 207 Posts
Originally Posted by GamblerGORD53
I'm not a CF racer rider. Pros are max 160 lbs I think.
So my guess is that wheel is good for a 200 lbs rider.
I am heading down to that weight. I may wait until I am under 200 to rebuild it.
pepperbelly is offline  
Old 08-10-23, 08:22 PM
  #24  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Elevation 666m Edmonton Canada
Posts: 2,520

Bikes: 2013 Custom SA5w / Rohloff Tourster

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1267 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times in 256 Posts
Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun
Those are NOT straight pull spokes. They are radially laced.
The other spokes are cross 2 AFAICT.
Just because you haven't seen it before doesn't make it anything.
Twice as many spokes on the DS than the NDS is not a new concept, although I've never seen 20-10.
Well radial is what I meant. Thanks. Now I see they are 3 cross.
So if that's what they are with NDS all radial, then I change my vote to garbage that death trap wheel.

Last edited by GamblerGORD53; 08-10-23 at 08:27 PM.
GamblerGORD53 is offline  
Old 08-10-23, 08:31 PM
  #25  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 39,077

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 141 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5983 Post(s)
Liked 2,913 Times in 1,618 Posts
Weight is only one factor in wheel life, and it's not a major one on its own. Riding style and road conditions are more important, as is build quality.

Over the years I've built for and ridden with 250+# gorillas and <110# ballerinas, and am no longer surprised when their experiences are opposite to what one would expect.

FWIW until the seventies, high end sport wheels were built with 15g DB spokes and sub 300g rims, and they held up fine. 14g spokes were only for "truck" bikes. I mention this to show that light, low spoke count wheels aren't necessarily a poor choice.

To the OP, less than 8% added spoke strength isn't a sea change. You should be OK if you want to rebuild those wheels. Focus on how you ride, ie. standing over bumps, finding the best line through bad sections of pavement, maintaining smooth pedaling style when climbing, etc.

Last edited by FBinNY; 08-10-23 at 08:38 PM.
FBinNY is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.