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How To Find Rim Replacement

Old 11-20-23, 06:41 PM
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How To Find Rim Replacement

I have a set of NOS 26" wheels. The hubs are Shimano XT and the rims are Sun CR-18s. I would like to replace the rims but keep the current spokes.

I want to keep the current spokes because they are essentially new and because I could re-build the wheel by taping the new rim to the old wheel and moving the spokes across. I've been successful doing this in the past but the rim was a like for like replacement.

In order to discover alternative rims (if there are any) can I search for rims with the same ERD as the Suns? Or is it more complicated than that - are there other factors to consider?

Many thanks in advance
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Old 11-20-23, 06:55 PM
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Yes, do duplicate the ERD, don't forget about spoke count.

What is less straight forward is that different rim companies measure their rims' ERDs differently. Some companies measure to the rim's spoke bed and not to any hole reinforcing eyelet present or nipple washer required,1-3mm of difference in ERD from the listed and the actual in hand rim can easily happen. This is why wheel builders do their own measurements.

So the easiest is to replace the rim with the same brand/model/spec and trust that their QC tolerance has remained consistent over the years.

These days I rarely reuse spokes and nearly never reuse nipples. Andy
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Old 11-20-23, 06:57 PM
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why switch? sun cr-18 are not fancy but are durable and work well

in general same ERD and same hole pattern (offset or not offset) should take the same length

cr18 are 548 erd with no offset (up to you to verify)

https://www.parktool.com/en-us/blog/...wheel-building
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Old 11-20-23, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by EverRed
In order to discover alternative rims (if there are any) can I search for rims with the same ERD as the Suns? Or is it more complicated than that - are there other factors to consider?
Rims with angled spoke holes are right or left handed i.e. the first spoke hole after the valve hole is angled to either the drive or non-drive side - this is not a problem when you're lacing from scratch but if you do the side-by-side swap and the new rim is the other handedness then the valve hole will have to be in the wrong place in order for the spokes to be correctly angled. Some rims also have spoke holes angled forward/backward, if they are thick enough that the spherical nipple/rim interface does not allow sufficient angulation without an overly large hole..
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Old 11-20-23, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by EverRed
can I search for rims with the same ERD?
Try searching the net for "rim erd database"?

https://www.kstoerz.com/freespoke/rims?MfgId=9
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Old 11-21-23, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by EverRed
I have a set of NOS 26" wheels. The hubs are Shimano XT and the rims are Sun CR-18s. I would like to replace the rims but keep the current spokes.

I want to keep the current spokes because they are essentially new and because I could re-build the wheel by taping the new rim to the old wheel and moving the spokes across. I've been successful doing this in the past but the rim was a like for like replacement.

In order to discover alternative rims (if there are any) can I search for rims with the same ERD as the Suns? Or is it more complicated than that - are there other factors to consider?

Many thanks in advance
No, it’s not much more complicated than that. You can vary the ERD by 2 to 3 mm but not much more. If you go outside of the ERD by much more, you’ll either not have enough threads engaged on the nipple (larger ERD) or you will over run the spoke thread (smaller ERD). Personally, I’d err more on the slightly larger ERD than the smaller to avoid running off the spoke. However, if there is not enough thread engagement on the spokes, the nipples can be stressed and spoke can break at the threads.

SurferRosa’s suggestion of using Karl Stoerzinger excellent data base is a good one. squirtdad’s comment is also quite valid. Don’t swap if there is no need…says the man who has rebuild many completely useable wheels for the entirely vain purpose of changing color
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Old 11-22-23, 06:35 PM
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Thank you all for your replies.
I had landed on kstoerz while I was trying to figure things out prior to posting. Unfortunately my search only got to the cr-18 page and I didn't realize there was such a good search tool on there.
I was investigating a rim change just to see what options are available and if I could find something tubeless that would be lighter and stronger and wouldn't bankrupt me (asking a lot I know). Some of the kstoerz ERDs were different from the ERDs stated by the manufacturer (I think - I was tired when I was looking at them and could be mistaken).
For now I'll look into it a little more when time allows - its certainly not urgent.
Thanks again
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Old 11-22-23, 08:54 PM
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Once you find a potential rim replacement, just run the calculator to see the recommended spoke length for your current and new rims. Pull spokes, (front, DS, NDS), and measure them so you’ll know exactly what you have.

John
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Old 11-23-23, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by EverRed
Thank you all for your replies.
I had landed on kstoerz while I was trying to figure things out prior to posting. Unfortunately my search only got to the cr-18 page and I didn't realize there was such a good search tool on there.
I was investigating a rim change just to see what options are available and if I could find something tubeless that would be lighter and stronger and wouldn't bankrupt me (asking a lot I know). Some of the kstoerz ERDs were different from the ERDs stated by the manufacturer (I think - I was tired when I was looking at them and could be mistaken).
For now I'll look into it a little more when time allows - its certainly not urgent.
Thanks again
“Tubeless ready” is a bit of a red herring. When the whole tubeless thing got started, people used regular rims and regular tires. This article details how to do it.

As for “stronger/lighter/cheaper” as Keith Bontrager once said, “pick 2”. The Sun CR-18 isn’t a horrible rim. It is inexpensive and a bit heavier than some rims but it’s not particularly weak. That’s not bad for a rim that costs around $40. You can save 200g by going to a set of Velocity A23 but your wallet will be $124 lighter as well for a set of them. That a lot of cash for a quarter of a pound savings.

Additionally, rims don’t need to be “stronger”. Very few rims…if any… are weak nor does rim strength make that much difference to the strength of the wheel. The wheel’s strength comes from the spokes. Rims are a convenient place to attach the spokes to and to put wheels on. They really do little else.
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Old 11-23-23, 09:25 AM
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Old 11-28-23, 02:04 PM
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Thank you for your reply cyccommute
I have thought about doing what that article says (aka "ghetto") but I recall reading somewhere that it only works if rims have certain characteristics. I thought I read it on the Rene Herse site but I haven't been able to find it. I've also done a quick search and haven't found any confirmation that "ghetto" can be done with a CR-18. The risk of failure may be low but the potential consequence of failure could be too high to risk. I don't think it would be possible to effectively test a set up without riding aggressively and taking that high risk.

Originally Posted by cyccommute
“Tubeless ready” is a bit of a red herring. When the whole tubeless thing got started, people used regular rims and regular tires. "link removed" details how to do it.

As for “stronger/lighter/cheaper” as Keith Bontrager once said, “pick 2”. The Sun CR-18 isn’t a horrible rim. It is inexpensive and a bit heavier than some rims but it’s not particularly weak. That’s not bad for a rim that costs around $40. You can save 200g by going to a set of Velocity A23 but your wallet will be $124 lighter as well for a set of them. That a lot of cash for a quarter of a pound savings.

Additionally, rims don’t need to be “stronger”. Very few rims…if any… are weak nor does rim strength make that much difference to the strength of the wheel. The wheel’s strength comes from the spokes. Rims are a convenient place to attach the spokes to and to put wheels on. They really do little else.
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Old 11-28-23, 02:32 PM
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Why is the risk of failure too high? You'll only be out a piddly amount of money for the tape, sealant and other stuff. As for anything that happens to the tire while riding it, you'll just slow down to a stop with not much fanfare or impending disaster. At best it might feel a little wobbly till you get stopped.
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Old 11-28-23, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01
Why is the risk of failure too high? You'll only be out a piddly amount of money for the tape, sealant and other stuff. As for anything that happens to the tire while riding it, you'll just slow down to a stop with not much fanfare or impending disaster. At best it might feel a little wobbly till you get stopped.
Probably the most stressful time for the set up would be cornering at high speed. I'm guessing that if the rim's hooks are not up to the job then a sideways stress is the most likely thing to pull the tire off the rim. I use the hooks just as an example, as mentioned earlier I don't know what characteristics make a rim one that can be made tubeless.
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Old 11-28-23, 04:37 PM
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Tubeless does let you run lower pressures that might let the tire bead burp air and possibly come off the rm on twisty road and trails. But hopefully your butt is attuned to feeling how the tires are doing underneath you and will have figured out if you are running too low a pressure in your tires before tackling those twisty downhill turns at breakneck speed.
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Old 11-28-23, 05:06 PM
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Since you're using 26" rims, what tire size are you going to use?
CR-18 is a nice balance with a 1.25" tire.
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Old 11-28-23, 07:10 PM
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Here is off the rene herse discussion of tubeless https://www.renehersecycles.com/tubeless-faq/

and what bike radar says https://www.bikeradar.com/advice/buy...ides/tubeless/

I personally am not a tubeless fan for road, and if you really need to avoid pinch flats on road go tubular

(get off my lawn you whipper snappers )
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Old 11-29-23, 10:40 AM
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Thank you for the link to the bike radar article - its the one I thought i had read on rene herse. From the bike radar article "With a road bike, you should never run a non-tubeless tyre tubeless or attempt to convert a standard tube-type rim. The higher pressures used on the road make this dangerous and the consequences of failure can be serious." I dont necessarily agree with that because I don't run high pressure in my road/gravel/touring bike tires.

I designed the bike (a Rodriguez Phinney Ridge) for touring but I use it for road and gravel riding as well. I'm currently using no name 36 spoke wheels for touring. They are not tubeless but I have used Flat Attack with good results - about 2000 miles on roads and gravel with no flats. I'll continue to use these wheels for touring and plan to use the CR-18s for road and gravel.

I've been using Rene Herse 2.3 standard casing tires (they actually measure 2.1). They are luxuriously comfortable and fine on any surface I've ridden and I'll switch them between the two wheel sets because I don't want to spend the money on a second pair.

Iride - thank you for your comment. I've used tubeless on my mountain bike for several years but I'm more nervous about failures on a fast road descent.

I was just interested in exploring possibilities and I'll be using tubes plus Flat Attack for now.
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Old 11-30-23, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by squirtdad
Here is off the rene herse discussion of tubeless https://www.renehersecycles.com/tubeless-faq/

and what bike radar says https://www.bikeradar.com/advice/buy...ides/tubeless/

I personally am not a tubeless fan for road, and if you really need to avoid pinch flats on road go tubular

(get off my lawn you whipper snappers )
I am a massive fan of tubeless on road and the number of rides my mate on tubs has had to abandon…
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