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New wheel, old steel bike. Powerful stroke sends wheel into left chainstay

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New wheel, old steel bike. Powerful stroke sends wheel into left chainstay

Old 02-07-24, 10:23 PM
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New wheel, old steel bike. Powerful stroke sends wheel into left chainstay

So I need a good solution. I'm running new 650b wheels on a 1984 Nishiki Prestige. If I'm pedaling smooth and not forceful, no issues. However, if I decided to stand on the pedals and give a forceful stroke, the modern rear skewer cannot hold the wheel, and now the wheel is pushed over to the left chainstay.
Are there any good skewers with a good bite that can hold this. I can take my newer skewers and really torque the wheel down, and this holds most of the time. But, I do assume a better solution is out there.
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Old 02-07-24, 10:26 PM
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Shimano skewers.
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Old 02-07-24, 10:33 PM
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yes you'll want an old school skewer that can develop some clamping forces.

the Shimano ones from the mid 90s are good. DA 6500 series ?

/markp
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Old 02-07-24, 10:35 PM
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Modern hubs and skewers are designed around vertical dropouts, and lack enough holding power for horizontal dropouts.

You need to improve the bite enough to keep the chain from pulling the axle forward.

Better skewers are a step in the right direction and will help, but if you ride steep hills it might not be enough. I prefer to get bite from the axle faces, using hardened serrated lock nuts where possible. Otherwise, I "glue" coarse grit to the face with a nylon based nail polish or similar.

There's more than one way to solve this, but they all involve improving the grip of hub and/or QR into the dropout.
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Old 02-07-24, 11:38 PM
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Get the steel DT Swiss screw-on skewer, or one of the steel anti-theft skewers that require the use of an alan key wrench, and torque that thing until your hand starts to bleed.
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Old 02-08-24, 01:16 AM
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If you want to go retro, get a solid axle & serrated nuts.

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Old 02-08-24, 02:08 AM
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In addition to the other advice, double-check that the axle ends don't protrude past the outer faces of the dropouts. Otherwise, the skewer might be clamping partly on one or both of the axle ends rather than on the dropout faces.
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Old 02-08-24, 03:25 AM
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It would be helpful friday1970 if you had photos or at least told us what skewer you are using. I had an issue of my rear wheel slipping on a steel bike and finally realized the Performance brand external cam alloy/steel skewer was insufficient to hold the wheel in place. So I bought a lower end non-group specific all steel Shimano internal cam model from ebay(with the recessed nut for the lever), for a steel on steel clamp sandwich. Not one budge of the wheel since.

I don't think it necessarily be all steel though as I also have some alloy/steel Shimano levers on another steel frame that don't slip either. I've also used vintage Campy and Suntour steel QR's on these frames and they all hold w/o ever moving. So three cheers for internal cams
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Old 02-08-24, 06:10 AM
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Early in the morning here and busy getting taking off to work. I'll take a few pics tonight and upload them
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Old 02-08-24, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Trakhak
In addition to the other advice, double-check that the axle ends don't protrude past the outer faces of the dropouts. Otherwise, the skewer might be clamping partly on one or both of the axle ends rather than on the dropout faces.
I was thinking this too. I have several older steel bikes from the 90s, 80s, and even 70s. On those steel frames, the rear dropouts are sometimes thinner than you see on more modern bikes, or aluminum frames. And I think that the axle end spacing on new modern wheels takes the modern thicker dropouts into account. Consequently, when I get new, modern wheels for those older bikes, I sometimes have to put an extra washers/spacers on the axle so that the axle doesn’t protrude beyond the dropout, and thereby keeping the QR from clamping properly. — Dan
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Old 02-08-24, 07:22 AM
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Did you need to spread the dropouts to fit the new wheel? If so, the dropouts may need to be realigned. There's a tool for that.

And change the skewer.
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Old 02-08-24, 07:33 AM
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In 1984, your bike probably had 126mm dropouts. You did not state if the OLD of the new 650b wheels is 130mm. If this is the case then you either cold set the dropouts to 130mm or are just forcing the wheel into the dropouts by spreading them.

I cold set the horizontal dropouts on my wife’s 1986 Univega and the same thing happened, even though she’s not powerful and did not stand up out of the saddle.

Although skewers will help, I got an 80’s Deore, the real problem is the dropouts are probably not square/parallel after being spread. They flare out and no skewer is going to straighten them. Get the dropputs square/parallel and your problem will most likely go away.

You might still want to use a good internal cam skewer, but my wife eventually ended up using steel/aluminum external skewers.

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Old 02-08-24, 11:13 PM
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Your bike probably has a horizontal drop out rather than the current type which is called vertical dropout. You need an "internal cam" quick release because it can be tightened more securely. As others have said, Shimano makes them, but so do many others. You can find one at whatever pricepoint you want online. Also most likely at a local bike shop, and maybe even for free if they have a box of stuff that they aren't using.


For vertical dropouts you can get away with an "external cam" QR, which are generally lighter and work fine.


Last edited by Camilo; 02-08-24 at 11:20 PM.
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Old 02-09-24, 03:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Camilo
Your bike probably has a horizontal drop out rather than the current type which is called vertical dropout. You need an "internal cam" quick release because it can be tightened more securely. As others have said, Shimano makes them, but so do many others. You can find one at whatever pricepoint you want online. Also most likely at a local bike shop, and maybe even for free if they have a box of stuff that they aren't using.


For vertical dropouts you can get away with an "external cam" QR, which are generally lighter and work fine.

I thought external cam quick-releases on axles were recalled by at least one maker, I think because they are not idiot proof, you can get the cam over the high point instead of in the saddle-groove and it comes loose. Also, if plastic, that saddle breaks. But internal cams have better leverage ratio. Key is also to have some lube on the cam surface, I like to use "anti-seize", it prevents galling and makes closing easier than dry but still holds, but the very fine metal particles in it, are supposed to prevent changing the friction coefficient that much (unlike oil or plain grease, I don't use either on threads like many mechanics, I only use anti-seize).
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Old 02-09-24, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Camilo
Your bike probably has a horizontal drop out rather than the current type which is called vertical dropout. You need an "internal cam" quick release because it can be tightened more securely.
Aside from a cleaner look, why does the inclusion of a cover make an internal QR work better?
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Old 02-09-24, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by smd4
Aside from a cleaner look, why does the inclusion of a cover make an internal QR work better?
It's not the fact that it's enclosed that improves the action, it's the smaller hardened steel cam as opposed to a larger aluminium and plastic mechanism that gives better mechanical advantage and strength.
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Old 02-09-24, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Garthr
It would be helpful friday1970 if you had photos or at least told us what skewer you are using. I had an issue of my rear wheel slipping on a steel bike and finally realized the Performance brand external cam alloy/steel skewer was insufficient to hold the wheel in place. So I bought a lower end non-group specific all steel Shimano internal cam model from ebay(with the recessed nut for the lever), for a steel on steel clamp sandwich. Not one budge of the wheel since.

I don't think it necessarily be all steel though as I also have some alloy/steel Shimano levers on another steel frame that don't slip either. I've also used vintage Campy and Suntour steel QR's on these frames and they all hold w/o ever moving. So three cheers for internal cams
+1 The two big factors for clamping force are 1) a steel shaft and 2) an internal cam design with a modern cam shape.

Steel shaft because it has the highest modulus of elasticity of any usable metal. Twice that of aluminum and half again that of titanium. It stretches less. Stretch is the shaft relaxing and losing tension.

Internal cam design is simply better than external. Much more clamping force. You want to use a skewer made by a major manufacturer after the late '80s or so (I don't know when the change happened) and the cam shape was reworked to provide more clamping and a better lock when shut. I believe Shimano was on the leading edge here. In any case, any modern Shimano has the new cam. And all the Shimanos, of any price, have good construction and do the work of securing wheels very well.

So, el-cheapo Shimanos rule. You cannot get better, just lighter, sexier and lower bank balance. Go to your bike shop and ask for a $12 Shimanos of the correct length.

Skewers I use: Cheap Shimanos on my city bikes. Various on my 126 OLD 7-speeds. All internal, all steel skewered and probably the new cams but I don't really know. My primary 7-speed is getting re-vamped now so it will probably roll on with the new cam. Higher end Chorus and Ultegra on my best bikes. Early '00s, steel skewers and the new cams. All but one of my bikes is horizontally dropped. I'm not massively strong, nor do I have strong hands. I don't kill myself closing the QRs. Rear wheels only slip if I forget that the wheel is only in tight enough to not fall out. (I was working on the bike and needed to put it away to free the stand for another, say.)
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Old 02-09-24, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Trakhak
In addition to the other advice, double-check that the axle ends don't protrude past the outer faces of the dropouts. Otherwise, the skewer might be clamping partly on one or both of the axle ends rather than on the dropout faces.
I faced this exact problem at the Co-op yesterday. Shop user's wheel would not stay still despite applying an immense amount of clamping force at the skewer. Turns out the axle end on this side was protruding 2mm beyond of the dropout and the force applied to the quick release was going nowhere except the quick release. The bike was a cheap bike-boom road model with about the thinnest stamped-steel dropouts I've ever seen. Obviously, the frame was made to be used with nutted axles. With any quality forged dropouts, or an alu frame, this would not have been a problem.

The fix: a 2mm spacer/washer under the quick release on the left side.
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Old 02-09-24, 01:45 PM
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I continue to use light weight skewers on my wheels instead of the heavy steel skewers needed. I simply took a piece of aluminum and use it to fix the skewer in place. This might work for you...

Axle Slip Horizontal Dropout Fix Final
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Old 02-09-24, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by smd4
Aside from a cleaner look, why does the inclusion of a cover make an internal QR work better?
Originally Posted by grumpus
It's not the fact that it's enclosed that improves the action, it's the smaller hardened steel cam as opposed to a larger aluminium and plastic mechanism that gives better mechanical advantage and strength.
That makes sense as well as someone who mentioned steel vs. aluminum or titanium shaft/spindle. I don't really know, but always assumed that the cam design was somehow mechanically better at applying more clamping force? An engineer might be able to explain it. But in the case of my horizontal dropout bike, it does indeed apply more force and keeps the wheel from sliding into the left chain stay. But I must say that it's not really easy even with the external cam - I have to really torque down on. But I could never get the external cam type tight enough no matter how hard I tried.

I think the reason the external cam ones are so ubiquitous is that they can be lighter, maybe cheaper to manufacture, and do work fine with vertical drop outs.
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Old 02-09-24, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Camilo
I think the reason the external cam ones are so ubiquitous is that they can be lighter, maybe cheaper to manufacture, and do work fine with vertical drop outs.
I think "lightweight" and "available in colours" were both selling points when they first achieved popularity/notoriety, but "easy to make cheaply" was probably why the manufacturers liked them.
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Old 02-09-24, 04:39 PM
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FWIW the arguments about internal vs external cams us a distraction. Either design can be made to generate more or less clamping force simply by altering the rise.

The critical differences are the material and shape of the faces. Steel vs. aluminum, and dentated or formed to a pointed foot vs. flat and smooth.

Take a moment to consider a pipe wrench. Would you want one made of aluminum, or with smooth jaws that won't mar the pipe, or one with hardened, sharp teeth that bit and held in a way that would make a bulldog proud?

QR design went south when vertical dropouts eliminated the need for serious holding power. So those with horizontal dropouts need QRs designed for them. That these older designs happen to have internal cams is coincidence.

BTW there were quality external cam QRs back in the day, one if the nicest was by Simplex.

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Old 02-09-24, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by zandoval
I continue to use light weight skewers on my wheels instead of the heavy steel skewers needed. I simply took a piece of aluminum and use it to fix the skewer in place. This might work for you...

Axle Slip Horizontal Dropout Fix Final
Nice fix. I was thinking along the same lines, a possible retrofit for QR forks with disc brakes with aft caliper, that are known to be able to pull the axle out of the dropout under brake torque (hence the driver for thru-axles).

Even with your fix, I would never use an aluminum quick-release; Despite it being 1/3 as stiff as steel (and sometimes more elasticity makes a better hold, hence some engines having head bolts that are super long and extend into the block skirt), aluminum is notorious for fatigue failure in high stress environments; Steel and titanium hold up much better under fatigue. Usually to make something aluminum hold up in fatigue, it needs to be designed stiff, thus my 35 year old Cannondale racer that rides like iron until fit with much larger tires. But the diameter of the quick-release is limited, so you can't increase that to get more rigidity.

Then again, most hubs are aluminum. Although this is one of many reasons I don't like radial spoking, it stresses the hub flange more.

Regarding someone saying steel has better elastic stiffness (young's modulus)... tungsten is about 2X as stiff, but yes, not a common engineering material, and it's about 2.5X the density, almost twice the density of LEAD (about the same density as depleted uranium). If you've ever picked up a piece of tungsten, you'll remember it.

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Old 02-09-24, 09:47 PM
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Another tip - that everybody knows but few do. Lube those heads! I like to take them apart completely, grease the shaft and threads and put liberal grease in the cup and the cross holes for the cam shaft. Enough that grease squeezes out first use. Wipe clean. Clean and redo in 5 or 10 years. Your hands will say thank you. (And a real plus of the internal cam - nobody sees that pile of grease and it goes nowhere. Dirt doesn't get in there either.

And yes, FB is right. External cams can be mechanically just as good. But I doubt I have ever laid eyes on such a pair.
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Old 02-09-24, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney
Another tip - that everybody knows but few do. Lube those heads! I like to take them apart completely, grease the shaft and threads and put liberal grease in the cup and the cross holes for the cam shaft. Enough that grease squeezes out first use. Wipe clean. Clean and redo in 5 or 10 years. Your hands will say thank you. (And a real plus of the internal cam - nobody sees that pile of grease and it goes nowhere. Dirt doesn't get in there either.

And yes, FB is right. External cams can be mechanically just as good. But I doubt I have ever laid eyes on such a pair.
Agree with all. The (all metal) external cams on my seatpost clamp collar, and the handlebar clamp on my folder, are external, larger diameter cams, and greater sliding area, so some anti-seize there makes a big difference. Notable, both have a thin sheet of copper between the cam and saddle, probably to prevent galling of aluminum on aluminum. Also the fixed part of each does not rotate, so if the lever is applied in the direction that common sense would dictate, the cam is going to be in the saddle.
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