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Want to build wheels

Old 02-19-24, 08:51 PM
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Want to build wheels

As a pretty mechanically inclined person, I am looking to build two wheelsets for two track framesets I recently bought. I am letting Gerd Schraner teach me the fundamentals, but would like a few suggestions on (1) a decent wheel truing stand, and (2) a source for rims and spokes. I would prefer to build a 20 spoke wheel unless that's not recommended for a first time wheel builder.

Any other advice/suggestion is most welcome.
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Old 02-19-24, 09:10 PM
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Contact Wayne at Mel Pinto for a VAR truing stand. Don't expect a cheap price, but it will be the one you will use for decades. I currently own one and it is the best I have ever used. 365 cycles for boxes of spokes that are around 60cents per spoke, and the nipples come in boxes of 100 also inexpensive. Smiles, MH
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Old 02-19-24, 10:02 PM
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2 points.

1- wheel building is far more about skill rather than tools. So don't go nuts on truing stands and other stuff until you know you'll be building wheels long enough to justify it. Odds are that, once you've laced the wheels, you can find a co-op to true them up.

2- IME you need to crawl before walking, certainly before running a 5k. Low apoke wheels need steady hands, so take it easy and hone your skills truing, then building 32 or similar wheels, before trying your luck on a 20h wheel.
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Old 02-19-24, 10:07 PM
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If you want the best, Aivee or P&K Lie would be the top of the top. However a Park stand will get you going and there are others that are good like VAR or Abbey (I love their tools but haven't had a chance to get a lot of feedback on the truing stand so far but it is Abbey so I know it will be nice)

In terms of learning Schraner is a great way to start in book form. My old mechanic taught me the best way to learn is to take apart a wheel and put it back together. Any old wheel doesn't have to be one you will ride with but it will allow you to make mistakes that aren't costly.

My first wheel build was actually under the direct tutelage one of the oldest mechanics at my old old shop, he had built a lot of wheels in his time and had been with the company for decades and it was great to do it with him watching and the wheel is still in service.
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Old 02-19-24, 10:48 PM
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As far as practice, get a used road wheelset. Remove the spokes, nipples, and build them back up from scratch.

John

Edit added: Crossed correctly at valve and logo visible through valve hole.
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Old 02-19-24, 11:36 PM
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If you are going to use the truing stand throughout the years and want one, buy one. Others above have suggestions. With all my tools, I've never bought one. I just true the wheels in the fork and frame, just using a clothespin or binder clamp holding a popsicle stick or the like. I haven't had to build many wheels, but trued plenty. If the rim is off a lot radially, I unscrew all the nipples and start from scratch. Reasons below.

Start with the front wheel. You'll find instructions online, such as sheldonbrown.com, but I'll add just a couple notes:
- Make sure the hub bearings are smooth, but with no slack felt if you try to wiggle the axle in the hub, **once clamped in the bike, as the quick release will compress the axle. With nutted axle, you can set the bearing perfect off the bike and it won't change once installed.*** You need a close fit.
- With a matched set of spokes, you can get a good starting point by putting on all the spoke nipples for the same number of turns (I do this initially by laying the rim flat on the floor or workbench, then mount on the fork or frame, then (for the FRONT wheel) advance each nipple, perhaps 2 turns each, then 1 turn, etc, all while looking at the true at the stick. About that:
- Of course, true with the tire off, so the stick can run on the circumferential periphery of the rim. You'll want one stick there, and one stick on the rim sidewall.
- Truing radially (centering the rim about the axle), is more important primary consideration, because if you are off, it affects ALL the spokes. Adjusting laterally, is much easier, you loosen on one side and tighten on the other, you can do that "locally". So prioritize radial, but also check lateral periodically, to make sure you are not way off. As you get closer to final true, you will be constantly alternating between checking radial and lateral.
- The front fork could be bent, or uneven dropouts. As you get close, reverse the wheel in the fork, to see if it fits the same. If so, good. If not, you have a choice between a symmetrical wheel, or a slight "dish" (asymmetry) to match the fork, or fixing the fork. This also gives you chance to see if the rim periphery and sidewalls, one side is flatter than the other.
- As the spokes get tight, "ring" them by plucking like a bass guitar string, same tone equals same tension. Try to get the rim perfectly in true, while also having equal spoke tension all around.

That is the front wheel.

For the REAR wheel, if a symmetrical track wheel or a fixie flip-flop, just true it like the front wheel, checking centering of the rim in the chainstays, periodically flipping the wheel around. Assuming external derailleur gearing, the wheel will be dished, not centered on the hub laterally. If your spokes are correct length for the dish, you should be able to do just like the front wheel, putting the nipples on the same amount for each spoke, just to get in the ballpark. Then mount the wheel in the frame, set your perepheral and lateral sticks, and true away. This will also give you a guide to the dishing; Is the wheel centered in the chainstays? You don't need a dishing measurement tool, nor to sight across the sidewalls with a ruler at the hub, to check dish. What matters is if it is centered in THAT frame, no other bike. (The only reason this might not work is if you have horizontal rear dropouts (like your TRACK dropouts), so don't know if the axle is square to the bike long axis. Check your dropout stops first, I can only guess by measuring to bottom bracket. Vertical dropouts, you true the wheel to that bike.) Just like before, bring the tension up slow, prioritize radial over lateral, watching rim centering in chainstays. Ringing the spokes still works for all spokes on the SAME SIDE, but will ring different from left (non drive) to right (drive) sides.

For final tension, I don't have a spoke tension meter. Last I looked, they were everywhere cheap on amazon. I just go by feel, how flexy they feel.

Make sure you don't bottom the spoke nipple on any of the spokes, running out of threads. I did that once, was wondering why so hard to turn. Torqued it on so tight, stripped when trying to undo, needed to cut and replace the spoke.

I think other things like initial spoke lacing are covered online.

Last edited by Duragrouch; 02-20-24 at 02:59 AM.
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Old 02-20-24, 09:12 AM
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I recommend the DT spoke wrench which is 4 sided.

try truing some old wobbly wheels to build your truing skills.

and I agree with the post above - start with some 32 or 36 spoke wheels before building a 20

/markp
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Old 02-20-24, 11:10 AM
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My long time go-to guy for spokes/nipples: Lee Kilpatrick lkspoke@yahoo.com
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Old 02-21-24, 11:54 AM
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I didn't see anyone else point out that all adjustments at the nipple are not remotely the same. Bringing spokes up to tension requires counting multiple whole entire revolutions of the nipple. Radial adjustments require medium-size adjustments at the nipple - think half and whole turns. Lateral adjustments are the smallest - even 1/8 or 1/4 turn can go a long way.
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Old 02-21-24, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
...wheel building is far more about skill rather than tools...
I am so glad you mentioned this. That explains allot. I dont build wheels from scratch but I have had some real challenges truing and repairing wheels over the years. As a matter of fact when ever I buy a new Machine Built wheel set I routinely loosen everything up and then true again.

The term Skill is what gets me. Its very much like Tuning a guitar only with 36 strings. Often every thing checks out mechanically by Spoke Tension and set but still the wheel just is not right. So back we go again with a little twist here and there and a squeeze and flex every where and then like magic its a Tuned Wheel as well as a Trued wheel.

Lucky for me I actually enjoy doing this.

(but I would not want to do it for a living)
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Old 02-21-24, 12:15 PM
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Oh... My favorite source for Spokes and Nipples. Note that I only make small orders...

https://www.bikehubstore.com/category-s/300.htm

Oh... Another thing... Get yourself a Knock off Park Spoke Tension meter (20 USD Amazon). And remember to not pay too much attention to the numbers but rather the range...
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Old 02-21-24, 07:30 PM
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I built a set of wheels using a borrowed ~15 year old Park truing stand, which later was given to me. OP, you might try borrowing one.

It turned out to be a fun project, I did the build mostly on my own using online resources. I actually enjoyed it quite a bit and it wasn't difficult - 32h front and rear, good quality rims - just required patience and serenity.

Give it a try, it's fun.

Last edited by Camilo; 02-21-24 at 09:45 PM.
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Old 02-21-24, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by ScottCommutes
I didn't see anyone else point out that all adjustments at the nipple are not remotely the same. Bringing spokes up to tension requires counting multiple whole entire revolutions of the nipple. Radial adjustments require medium-size adjustments at the nipple - think half and whole turns. Lateral adjustments are the smallest - even 1/8 or 1/4 turn can go a long way.
Excellent point to make.
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Old 02-22-24, 08:37 AM
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I'll give you the same advice I give when teaching wheelbuilding.

If you own a tension meter, lock it up and give the key to a friend.

Forget about tension, and focus on length. Consider for a moment, a wheel where every spoke is tensioned to the identical length. Barring slight variations in the rim, that wheel will be perfectly true, and with uniform tension.

So, as you build, preserve uniform spoke length starting off with your thumbnail on the first thread, and bringing all nipples to there. Then add tension and, if necessary, correcting dish, turning all the nipples equal amounts. Ignore any temptation to align until it feels fairly firm.

Then set the elbows and stress relieve before going back to raising tension.

Only as the wheel starts feeling fairly tight, can you think about truing, but do so with small adjustments spread over many nipples. Generally, no nipple should ever be a full turn more or less average.

Now, when it's true and tight, pull out the tension meter to check your work.

Keep in mind, that uneven tension isn't a normal condition, it's the caused by builders who don't focus on preserving uniform length.

Last edited by FBinNY; 02-22-24 at 08:42 AM.
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Old 02-22-24, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by NVFlinch
My long time go-to guy for spokes/nipples: Lee Kilpatrick lkspoke@yahoo.com
Same for me. I ordered a set of spokes from him today. He is the best.

@FBinNY is right. Get a cheap truing stand for your first wheel project. Or don't get one at all, and use the bike as your stand.
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Old 02-22-24, 01:37 PM
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One thing not mentioned is to expect a slight hop on most metal rims where it's joined; don't try to get the radial true perfect in that spot. You could start with a 20h, but it'll require a lot more tension, so you'd at least want some experience with truing first, it you're likely to round off nipples.

The real hard wheels have the paired spokes or triplet lacing. Or 16h, that's tough.

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Old 02-24-24, 01:34 AM
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To the OP, and as one novice to another, don't get yourself worked up, it's not rocket surgery. A truing stand doesn't need to be much, lots of DIY plywood designs out there that will serve you well. Sure the professional stands look better if you're building for clients, and can adapt easier from the 20" ebike wheel to the fat bike that's next in queue, or readily mount things you don't need like dial gauges - unless of course you need to quantify your results to a client.

Expect to work SLOW! The people who do it all the time can work fast and not need any extra info, like measuring spoke tension for instance. We're not them, yet. Take your time, take breaks to mull over what's going on, take tension measurements and again after you make a change to get a feel for what actions give you what results.
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Old 02-24-24, 04:00 PM
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Let me add, that quality rims build up easier than cheap ones. My wheel building method is basically like FBinNY describes, above. I like Ambrosio rims and when using that method they only need a slight tweaking to true them after I tensioned the spokes. I once bought a pair of cheap Alex rims for my "foul weather" bike. They were way off true after final tensioning and it took a lot of adjustment to get them right.
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Old 02-24-24, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
If you own a tension meter, lock it up and give the key to a friend..
I remember standing next to Spence Wolf, at his truing stand which was made of angle iron, and he was holding a Hozan spoke tension meter - the old mechanical one.

He said "Mark, this tool here, is the instrument of the devil"

I still remember that. However the Wheel Fanatyk spoke tension system is pretty cool and gives merciless feedback.

I am stuck between the immovalble object and the irresistible force.

/markp
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Old 02-25-24, 06:58 AM
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If you're mechanically inclined, then build a truing stand. It's very simple. As was mentioned above..it's more about skill and the process than tools.

I built this for about $15. Works perfect. The dishing tool ran me less than $5 (ruler was from Walmart's sewing dept).

Get Roger Musson's e-book. It'll walk you through the wheel building process and give you specs to build the truing stand and dishing tool.

https://www.wheelpro.co.uk/wheelbuilding/book.php

I also use Wheel Fanatyk's tensiometer**. Lots of folks here don't appear to like tensiometers much. It's a tool. After one has built 100 sets of wheels I'd guess a tensiometer may not be of much use. When you're starting out..I find it very helpful. It provides a sense of "where am I" as I go through the process.
(**A good tensiometer is well worth it. After dealing with a Park tool type design..and the random numbers it generates, I have zero faith in that tool.)

https://wheelfanatyk.com/products/wh...k-tensiometers

And lastly..if you use a Park Tool design tool..have a way to check it's accuracy. I haven't needed it with the Wheel Fanatyk's tool.
This may be interesting reading...advice to a newbee, from a newbee (at the time)
Adventures with Tension Meters


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Old 02-26-24, 01:02 AM
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(above) I love truing the wheels in the frame and fork. Front, by reversing the wheel, tells me how straight the fork is or how even the dropouts. Rear, I don't need a dishing tool, I just center the rim in the chainstays. Plus I'm cheap.
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Old 03-14-24, 09:20 AM
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I have a 2mm shorter DT spoke,/bad measurement/. Which lenght of nipple is the best solution, 12-14 or 16mm. thank you all
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Old 03-14-24, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by dlakovuk
I have a 2mm shorter DT spoke,/bad measurement/. Which lenght of nipple is the best solution, 12-14 or 16mm. thank you all
Doesn't make a difference. The head, which is what matters, is always in the same place.

OTOH if the spoke is really short the thread might show with a 12mm nipple, so go with 14 for purely cosmetic reasons.
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Old 03-15-24, 03:20 PM
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