Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Bicycle Mechanics
Reload this Page >

What, if anything, can be learnt about this spoke breakage?

Notices
Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

What, if anything, can be learnt about this spoke breakage?

Old 02-29-24, 04:50 AM
  #26  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,582
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 707 Post(s)
Liked 394 Times in 314 Posts
Originally Posted by FBinNY
Side note, having nothing to do with the issue.

I note that the wheel isn't mirrored (all trailing spokes either elbow in or out). Most hand builders mirror for a number of reasons. Machine built wheels are often built unmirrored because it's faster for a production worker. So, while this wouldn't cause failure at nipples, it argues against the wheel being hand built by a skilled builder.
Interesting. Just checked my cheap factory wheels, they're not mirrored. I could see the outer cross of the lacing perhaps counteracting that, but still. Learn something new every day. I'd read up on wheelbuilding, but I'll just forget most of it before using. But if I ever build a set of wheels, I'll read up first. Except this would be null, as I'd like to go straight-pull spokes and hubs, only due to ease of replacing rear drive-side spokes on a trip, no need to pull cassette, nor discs on disc side. Don't see 32 or 36 hole hubs, but I see 28 hole, that's enough for 20" rims.
Duragrouch is offline  
Old 02-29-24, 09:01 AM
  #27  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,675

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5769 Post(s)
Liked 2,545 Times in 1,411 Posts
Originally Posted by Duragrouch
Interesting. Just checked my cheap factory wheels, they're not mirrored. I could see the outer cross of the lacing perhaps counteracting that, but still......
FWIW, I noted it a distinction, not implying any material difference.

Experienced builders usually have opinion about pulling spokes being elbow out or on. Whatever they believe, it applies to both flanges, so they mirror accordingly.

Production builders using lacing machines are more focused on speed, wanting to lace 30+ wheels per hour. Not mirroring makes the handwork the same on both flanges, allowing them to lace on autopilot, bottom flange first, then top.

So, free of judgement, mirrored vs. non-mirrored can distinguish hand vs. machine built wheels.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline  
Likes For FBinNY:
Old 02-29-24, 07:32 PM
  #28  
Senior Member
 
grumpus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,179
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 476 Post(s)
Liked 427 Times in 327 Posts
Originally Posted by Duragrouch
I have not stress-relieved my wheel spokes. Only saw bit decades ago about doing that with feet, didn't seem precise to me. In recent days I read how to properly do this on sheldonbrown, gripping adjacent parallel spokes.
I do that while I'm truing, but I also put the wheel on a carpeted floor and press hard with hands on opposite sides, turn maybe 45 degrees and repeat until I've gone around a couple of times, then flip it over and do the other side - repeat until there are no pings or creaks. I'm quite heavy, I can see that standing on it might work better for a lighter person.
grumpus is offline  
Old 03-01-24, 01:00 AM
  #29  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,582
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 707 Post(s)
Liked 394 Times in 314 Posts
Originally Posted by grumpus
I do that while I'm truing, but I also put the wheel on a carpeted floor and press hard with hands on opposite sides, turn maybe 45 degrees and repeat until I've gone around a couple of times, then flip it over and do the other side - repeat until there are no pings or creaks. I'm quite heavy, I can see that standing on it might work better for a lighter person.
I take it you mean laying the wheel flat (axle on floor) and pressing on spokes (lateral to the wheel) or pressing on the rim laterally?
Duragrouch is offline  
Old 03-01-24, 01:30 PM
  #30  
Senior Member
 
grumpus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,179
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 476 Post(s)
Liked 427 Times in 327 Posts
Originally Posted by Duragrouch
I take it you mean laying the wheel flat (axle on floor) and pressing on spokes (lateral to the wheel) or pressing on the rim laterally?
Pressing down on the rim around 10 to 2.
grumpus is offline  
Old 03-01-24, 01:38 PM
  #31  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,675

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5769 Post(s)
Liked 2,545 Times in 1,411 Posts
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

2 spokes breaking over a year apart is not enough to make any inferences.

Last edited by FBinNY; 03-01-24 at 01:45 PM.
FBinNY is offline  
Old 03-02-24, 12:06 AM
  #32  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2022
Location: The Ring of Fire
Posts: 927
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 461 Post(s)
Liked 565 Times in 354 Posts
Fixed

Ron Damon is offline  
Old 03-02-24, 12:54 AM
  #33  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,582
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 707 Post(s)
Liked 394 Times in 314 Posts
Originally Posted by grumpus
Pressing down on the rim around 10 to 2.
I assume with knees holding the opposite side of rim down. Sounds like a good technique.
Duragrouch is offline  
Old 03-02-24, 01:02 AM
  #34  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,582
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 707 Post(s)
Liked 394 Times in 314 Posts
Originally Posted by Ron Damon
Interesting. I had not noticed before, the hub drive-side flange is larger diameter than the non-drive-side. If anything, I would have thought the other way around, to make spokes on both sides more even in length. But maybe yours has to do with the dish and lateral pull angle of spokes on each side. I'll have to think about that.
Duragrouch is offline  
Old 03-02-24, 04:04 AM
  #35  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2022
Location: The Ring of Fire
Posts: 927
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 461 Post(s)
Liked 565 Times in 354 Posts
Originally Posted by Duragrouch
Interesting. I had not noticed before, the hub drive-side flange is larger diameter than the non-drive-side. If anything, I would have thought the other way around, to make spokes on both sides more even in length. But maybe yours has to do with the dish and lateral pull angle of spokes on each side. I'll have to think about that.
Well, the non drive side is more dished. To make the dishing less severe on that side, a longer path is provided by a smaller hub flange.

Last edited by Ron Damon; 03-02-24 at 04:07 AM.
Ron Damon is offline  
Old 03-02-24, 08:57 AM
  #36  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,675

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5769 Post(s)
Liked 2,545 Times in 1,411 Posts
Originally Posted by Ron Damon
Well, the non drive side is more dished. To make the dishing less severe on that side, a longer path is provided by a smaller hub flange.
Yes and (practically) no.

While a larger flange combined with reduced crosses increases the bracing angle, the reality is that the reduced crosses matter more.

With more crosses, as your's seems to have, spokes end close to the axis regardless of flange size. Combined with the very slight difference in diameter, the net effect will be near zero.

By example, on a 3x28h build flange size makes no difference at all vis a vis spoke length or bracing angle.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline  
Old 03-02-24, 01:37 PM
  #37  
Senior Member
 
grumpus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,179
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 476 Post(s)
Liked 427 Times in 327 Posts
Originally Posted by Duragrouch
I assume with knees holding the opposite side of rim down. Sounds like a good technique.
No knees involved, except for kneeling on the floor - the rim touches the floor at 12 o'clock, the hub holds the rim up at an angle, and you press down at 10 and 2 o'clock (or WNW and ENE if you prefer).
grumpus is offline  
Old 03-02-24, 03:16 PM
  #38  
aged to perfection
 
mpetry912's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: PacNW
Posts: 1,805

Bikes: Dinucci Allez 2.0, Richard Sachs, Alex Singer, Serotta, Masi GC, Raleigh Pro Mk.1, Hetchins, etc

Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 832 Post(s)
Liked 1,244 Times in 658 Posts
take a pair of pliers and bend the spokes at about 1" up from the nipple to normalize the angle at which the spoke enters the nipple.

so it goes "straight in" won't hurt a thing.

the other thing you can do is re-lace that wheel with 2 cross to give a reduced that angle of departure.

/markp
mpetry912 is offline  
Old 03-02-24, 03:38 PM
  #39  
Senior Member
 
mrrabbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 3,504

Bikes: 2001 Tommasini Sintesi w/ Campagnolo Daytona 10 Speed

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 145 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 35 Times in 30 Posts
Originally Posted by grumpus
Pressing down on the rim around 10 to 2.
The press down method on the sides of the rim is NOT stress relieving...

...and one of the worst things you can do to a wheel. A wheel's strength is linear - not lateral.

You are literally threatening to taco the wheel if you do that.

Shocked how we still have people who do this despite decades of warnings NOT to do this.

=8-(
__________________
5000+ wheels built since 1984...

Disclaimer:

1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:

Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
mrrabbit is offline  
Likes For mrrabbit:
Old 03-02-24, 04:12 PM
  #40  
Senior member
 
Dan Burkhart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Oakville Ontario
Posts: 8,116
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 942 Post(s)
Liked 657 Times in 371 Posts
Originally Posted by mrrabbit
The press down method on the sides of the rim is NOT stress relieving...

...and one of the worst things you can do to a wheel. A wheel's strength is linear - not lateral.

You are literally threatening to taco the wheel if you do that.

Shocked how we still have people who do this despite decades of warnings NOT to do this.

=8-(
I would agree that this really does nothing to stress relieve. All it really does is reduce the tension to allow any spoke windup to unwind.
Dan Burkhart is offline  
Old 03-02-24, 06:36 PM
  #41  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,582
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 707 Post(s)
Liked 394 Times in 314 Posts
Originally Posted by grumpus
No knees involved, except for kneeling on the floor - the rim touches the floor at 12 o'clock, the hub holds the rim up at an angle, and you press down at 10 and 2 o'clock (or WNW and ENE if you prefer).
I... don't think that puts much strain on the spokes at all (and you do need strain for stress relieving). It may try to stretch the spokes at 10 and 2 a bit with respect to the spokes at 12, but it's fighting the local lateral stiffness of the rim, and perhaps may cause yielding on the rim before the spokes, something you don't want. As always, "I could be wrong".
Duragrouch is offline  
Old 03-02-24, 06:42 PM
  #42  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,582
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 707 Post(s)
Liked 394 Times in 314 Posts
Originally Posted by FBinNY
While a larger flange combined with reduced crosses increases the bracing angle, the reality is that the reduced crosses matter more.
I had to think about that... yes, same lateral distance with shorter spokes increases the bracing angle. That may explain a wheel shown on another thread with radial spoking on the drive side, and crossed spoking opposite; I know modern hubs with large cylindrical midsection makes this possible, but didn't see the logic of doing it that way. Your explanation may be the key.
Duragrouch is offline  
Old 03-03-24, 12:32 PM
  #43  
Senior Member
 
grumpus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,179
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 476 Post(s)
Liked 427 Times in 327 Posts
Originally Posted by Duragrouch
I... don't think that puts much strain on the spokes at all (and you do need strain for stress relieving). It may try to stretch the spokes at 10 and 2 a bit with respect to the spokes at 12, but it's fighting the local lateral stiffness of the rim, and perhaps may cause yielding on the rim before the spokes, something you don't want. As always, "I could be wrong".
It actually loosens spokes, so spoke wind-up is released and you don't get those clicks and pings when you first ride your new wheels. You mentioned a stress relieving technique using feet, so I related this method which could use feet, not as a recommendation for stress relieving. I once over-tensioned a wheel and turned it into a Pringle by doing this, but it straightened right out when I pushed it the other way, and worked fine once I'd reduced tension a bit.
grumpus is offline  
Old 03-03-24, 01:47 PM
  #44  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,675

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5769 Post(s)
Liked 2,545 Times in 1,411 Posts
There are countless variations on how to stress relieve/settle/unwind a nearly finished wheel.

They all share a common process, namely overload some spokes, while relaxing others. Whatever gets the job done is fine

FWIW I prefer to sit, brace the wheel against one knee an pull at 3 and 9, working my around the wheel. I gauge how hard to pull by watching and listening. I don't claim this is any better, except that it doesn't call for getting up.
FBinNY is offline  
Old 03-03-24, 02:51 PM
  #45  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,200
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 137 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 81 Times in 64 Posts
How much do you weigh? I’d be inclined to look for a rim with angled holes and more spokes.
LeeG is offline  
Old 03-04-24, 12:38 AM
  #46  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,582
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 707 Post(s)
Liked 394 Times in 314 Posts
Originally Posted by grumpus
It actually loosens spokes, so spoke wind-up is released and you don't get those clicks and pings when you first ride your new wheels.
Ah OK. Long ago I recall that on newly trued wheels, but less as I became aware of spoke windup and would reverse the nipples near the end to unwind. In recent years, I don't recall much of either, and thinking now, that is probably due to my riding exclusively 20" wheels with constant gauge short spokes, which are more torsionally stiff than on my previous 700c bikes.
Duragrouch is offline  
Old 03-04-24, 10:47 AM
  #47  
Senior Member
 
grumpus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,179
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 476 Post(s)
Liked 427 Times in 327 Posts
Originally Posted by LeeG
How much do you weigh? I’d be inclined to look for a rim with angled holes and more spokes.
Could probably just file this rim a little to ovalise each hole in the right direction. I've wondered about DIY rim dimpling, but never got around to trying it.
grumpus is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.