Alfine 11 SG-700 Best practises?
I have an NOS alfine 11 SG-700 i.e. the older version. Looking for recommendations from those who have successfully managed to use it trouble-free for many years :)
what should i keep a check for to avoid troubles? How often should i change the oil? Is there any other oil that you have tried which works? Does everyone get an oil leak? How to keep it in check? Anything else? :) Thank you for your help. (I understand there is loooong thread elsewhere but i am looking for more updated responses) |
Originally Posted by thisnameisok
(Post 23172776)
I have an NOS alfine 11 SG-700 i.e. the older version. Looking for recommendations from those who have successfully managed to use it trouble-free for many years :)
what should i keep a check for to avoid troubles? How often should i change the oil? Is there any other oil that you have tried which works? Does everyone get an oil leak? How to keep it in check? Anything else? :) Thank you for your help. (I understand there is loooong thread elsewhere but i am looking for more updated responses) I serviced one recently that the owner had used ATF instead of the Shimano oil. I don’t believe that the ATF did any damage to the hub, but it was obviously incompatible with the drive side cap as it had swollen to the point that the threads no longer engaged the hub and all the oil had leaked out. I have tested ATF in Alfine 8 speed hubs but the bearings in those hubs are greased which forms a partial barrier to oil webpage. The 11 speed bearings are oil bath so the cap is fully exposed. I have observed swelling of the cap on the 8 speed hubs as well but to a lesser degree. My observations and tests have led me to conclude that there are good reasons to stick with the OEM oil. Others have used gear lube and their results may differ. |
Consider Dan an expert on these and take his advice to heart.
|
Maybe I'm a wuss, but I believe in sticking with the manufacturer's recommendations and products. The Shimano oil change kit and a can of oil (which will last you forever-ever-ever) are cheap enough. Never had any leaks, never had any problems, though I don't ride off-road or in rainy conditions much. Two of these hubs on two bikes, probably ten thousand miles between the two of them. Try to change the oil every two years, but I've been late a few times with no problems. I also take them for a ten-mile+ rode to "heat up the oil" which has been my motorcycle tradition for decades, to good effect. The used oil still drains clear out of the hub and I've never seen any shavings or grit.
I have a Jtek bar-end shifter on one of them, which is AWESOME, but the shifts are lightly indexed, so it's possible to do a "half-shift" when you're in a hurry, which could possibly damage the gear teeth. https://www.sefiles.net/merchant/329...large/11SP.jpg http://www.calamarichris.com/images/...d-globepch.jpg I love riding this bike, and once you've adjusted to ensuring you're not between gears, it's so sweet. |
Originally Posted by calamarichris
(Post 23173011)
Maybe I'm a wuss, but I believe in sticking with the manufacturer's recommendations and products. The Shimano oil change kit and a can of oil (which will last you forever-ever-ever) are cheap enough. Never had any leaks, never had any problems, though I don't ride off-road or in rainy conditions much. Two of these hubs on two bikes, probably ten thousand miles between the two of them. Try to change the oil every two years, but I've been late a few times with no problems. The used oil still drains clear out of the hub and I've never seen any shavings or grit.
I have a Jtek bar-end shifter on one of them, which is AWESOME, but the shifts are lightly indexed, so it's possible to do a "half-shift" when you're in a hurry, which could possibly damage the gear teeth. I love riding this bike, and once you've adjusted to ensuring you're not between gears, it's so sweet. |
Originally Posted by FBinNY
(Post 23173005)
Consider Dan an expert on these and take his advice to heart.
|
Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart
(Post 23173074)
A minor point, but it is not actually the gear teeth that are subject to damage, but the engagement pawls that couple the sun gears to the axle and the internal splines on the sun gears that can take damage from partial engagement.
|
Originally Posted by calamarichris
(Post 23173092)
I say this with absolutely no sarcasm, but I marvel at minds like yours. I've watched at least a half-dozen Youtube videos (some of them twice) very closely,. I've also opened cleaned, and re-oiled my Alfine-8 hubs a few times. I've torn-down and rebuilt entire motorcycles. Yet these hubs are still black-magic to my puny non-engineering brain. I also never passed calculus. Is calculus required? Because I'm thinking calculus might be involved with the planetary gears and such in there.
The planetary gears are not complex themselves on a 3-speed, but when you get to hubs like a Rohloff 14, the drive-paths can be very complex and difficult to keep straight for even us engineers with extraordinary 3D spatial-relations skills. But those specializing in such things, get better at it with time. Modern Computer Aided Design (CAD) with solid modeling, including the ability to different color parts, instantly add or remove parts from an assembly, and actually produce an animation of all the parts in motion, helps a lot (and produces great youtube videos!). |
Originally Posted by calamarichris
(Post 23173092)
I say this with absolutely no sarcasm, but I marvel at minds like yours. I've watched at least a half-dozen Youtube videos (some of them twice) very closely,. I've also opened cleaned, and re-oiled my Alfine-8 hubs a few times. I've torn-down and rebuilt entire motorcycles. Yet these hubs are still black-magic to my puny non-engineering brain. I also never passed calculus. Is calculus required? Because I'm thinking calculus might be involved with the planetary gears and such in there.
|
And to think, all William Reilly had back in 1901 was a piece of paper and a pencil.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d9ddeca9de.png https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1717c1e9a2.png |
Originally Posted by tcs
(Post 23173493)
And to think, all William Reilly had back in 1901 was a piece of paper and a pencil.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1717c1e9a2.png |
Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart
(Post 23173501)
That’s the model BSA cloned and produced into the mid 50s
|
Originally Posted by tcs
(Post 23173493)
And to think, all William Reilly had back in 1901 was a piece of paper and a pencil.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d9ddeca9de.png https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1717c1e9a2.png https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f45aa59ac8.jpg |
Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart
(Post 23173001)
The most important oil change is the first one and should definitely be done on schedule.
I serviced one recently that the owner had used ATF instead of the Shimano oil. I don’t believe that the ATF did any damage to the hub, but it was obviously incompatible with the drive side cap as it had swollen to the point that the threads no longer engaged the hub and all the oil had leaked out. I have tested ATF in Alfine 8 speed hubs but the bearings in those hubs are greased which forms a partial barrier to oil webpage. The 11 speed bearings are oil bath so the cap is fully exposed. I have observed swelling of the cap on the 8 speed hubs as well but to a lesser degree. My observations and tests have led me to conclude that there are good reasons to stick with the OEM oil. Others have used gear lube and their results may differ. IDK about ATM, but synth gear oil is a popular substitute for the Shimano stuff--Royal Purple and Red Line are popular. My issues have been leaking seals, some of which are replaceable and others, not. My one bike with the 11-sp hub has perhaps 20k mi and I've gone through three, due to seal leaks. Shop serviced, not DIY. |
Originally Posted by Rick_D
(Post 23177656)
...synth gear oil is a popular substitute for the Shimano stuff--Royal Purple and Red Line are popular.
|
https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?t=64432
60 pages there, many older posts so relevant to your older hub. I'm running valvoline 75w-90 gl5 full synthetic in a newer hub, about 1 year old with 2 k miles. I've drilled and tapped the hub for a second hole about 90° away from the original to allow for easier drainage. I used a brass bolt for one of the plugs and drilled it with a 3mm bit, then epoxied 3mm round magnets into the hole to catch any ferrous debris, so far it has only accumulated very tiny filings that almost feel like fuzz. So far leakage hasn't been terrible, but I think I'm going to replace the right hand dust cap next time I change the oil. |
Thank you all for your guidance :)
Unfortunately, after posting in this forum, I tried several retailers where I live and none have the OEM oil and importing it would be quite expensive. I think I'll sell this hub and move back to a derailleur drivetrain or something simpler to maintain like the Nexus8. |
Originally Posted by thisnameisok
(Post 23182237)
Thank you all for your guidance :)
Unfortunately, after posting in this forum, I tried several retailers where I live and none have the OEM oil and importing it would be quite expensive. I think I'll sell this hub and move back to a derailleur drivetrain or something simpler to maintain like the Nexus8. Just another thing to reinforce my view that IGHs are more expensive to maintain. Don't need maintenance as often, but critical to do, and lube needs to be correct (I had thought not previously, but this thread and others have convinced me, better stay with recommended lube). |
Originally Posted by Duragrouch
(Post 23182902)
Just another thing to reinforce my view that IGHs are more expensive to maintain. Don't need maintenance as often, but critical to do, and lube needs to be correct (I had thought not previously, but this thread and others have convinced me, better stay with recommended lube).
*And Sturmey even defines readily available commercial equivalents! |
Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart
(Post 23173001)
I serviced one recently that the owner had used ATF instead of the Shimano oil. I don’t believe that the ATF did any damage to the hub, but it was obviously incompatible with the drive side cap as it had swollen to the point that the threads no longer engaged the hub and all the oil had leaked out.
|
Originally Posted by Duragrouch
(Post 23182902)
Yeah, I would suspect that (what I've heard) Alfine 11 has roller clutches and not pawls, the lube would be special. Not something you would find at typical retailers, but one would think that a bike repair shop that does IGHs would sell some, but perhaps not, they might only buy in bulk for their own use.
Just another thing to reinforce my view that IGHs are more expensive to maintain. Don't need maintenance as often, but critical to do, and lube needs to be correct (I had thought not previously, but this thread and others have convinced me, better stay with recommended lube). |
There's one BF user who has also used royal purple exclusively on his Alfine 11 and had no problems. But there aren't many other voices..
|
Originally Posted by thisnameisok
(Post 23183184)
yes and unfortunately if you mess it up, you have to replace the whole thing !
In the pictures on our various IGH pages you can see how we lubricate hubs. The gear teeth and ball bearings get a load of CRC Sta-Lube Blue Boat Trailer Wheel Bearing Grease (product code SL3125). The roller bearings, pawls and the rest of the parts get coated in Phil Wood Tenacious Oil. The grease on the bearings helps keep the oil inside. It also acts as a barrier to water intrusion by filling all the spaces. Do not use heavy grease on the rollers or the hub may slip. Cold climate users may want to use only oil or a lighter grease with a low operating temperature such as Buzzy's Slick Honey or Dumonde Tech Freehub Grease. We have had reports of success using Lucas Heavy Duty 80W-90 Gear Oil (It is good down to -36 degrees C). You may also use Rohloff Speedhub Oil or Shimano SG-700 Oil. Note that all 3 oils are for sealed hubs like the Alfine 11 and will leak faster out of lesser sealed hubs. Dumonde Tech also makes a suitable sealed hub oil. |
Thanks for sharing! I have been to Aaron's informative site - however I don't live in the US so can't avail of his services.
He mentions Lucas Heavy Duty 80W-90 Gear Oil in the same line as the Shimano and Rohloff oil, so perhaps there is an alternative. However, on his shimano IGH specific page, he writes "Use only Shimano SG-S700 Oil in the Alfine 11 hubs. Other lubes may cause seal swelling or deterioration." and "The main seal should be replaced every oil change to prevent leaks." Perhaps too conservative but still can be a best practise. Anyway, too much work for me as compared to a derailleur-drivetrain :) |
Originally Posted by thisnameisok
(Post 23184754)
Thanks for sharing! I have been to Aaron's informative site - however I don't live in the US so can't avail of his services.
Don't live in the US? Well that's not what it says on your profile, dangit! But I assumed you don't live local to Seattle, even if in the US, it can cost a lot to ship wheels these days. But I figured the website may have good info you can just apply locally yourself. |
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