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A couple of quick tools questions

Old 06-20-24, 11:47 AM
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A couple of quick tools questions

looking for a "track stand" (if that's the right name) for a friend. I own this. It was given to me 10+ years ago and it has been incredibly useful. No brand name anywhere. A friend wants one, or something similar. Any ideas?



I've got a 50 year old Royal Scot/Raleigh with a loose BB and stuck 16mm adjustable cup. I've been soaking it. I assume I can adjust without taking off the crankarm. This is the correct tool, yes? Park HCW-11


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Old 06-20-24, 03:16 PM
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search this on Ebay...

Bicycle Bottom Axis Disassembly Tool Bike Bottom Bracket Remover Repair Spanner


i have a similar socket pair that came with a spring loaded socket retention bolt/nut setup...it also works on the drive side cups...

good luck. i've had to cut some out to save a frame.
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Old 06-20-24, 06:59 PM
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Bike shops use stands like that. Sometimes they have old ones that they don't want anymore. Or they know where to order them.

Otherwise, make one out of wood.
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Old 06-20-24, 07:19 PM
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I would not recommend searching that on ebay. Get the proper tool and if the description has several mentions of the tool in different ways like that it is not going to be one of good quality. Get a good quality tool and buy once, cry once. Those sort of descriptions are best left to the fakes and knockoffs of the world and the cheap stuff nobody should ever buy unless beyond desperate.

I think the HCW-11 might work but I would check in the Classic and Vintage sub-forum lots of knowledgeable folks there who know the correct tool if not that. Possibly their lockring wrench might be the one. HCW-5


In terms of the stand loads of options, Pro (Shimano) makes one, Specialized sold them as Fork Stands, Sunlite had an adjustable one and there are tons of other options for them. Your local shop probably has a line on them. I would look at the Willworx Super Stand those are fantastic for holding up bikes.
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Old 06-20-24, 07:51 PM
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The HC-11 is the correct tool although it is somewhat thin and easy to damage unless securely held tightly against the cup (so the wrench won't slip off the flats on the cup). For cotterless cranks this is easy to contrive with the crank arm bolt/nut and washers/spacers. With a cottored crank axle less easily so. Hopefully the adjustable cup will unthread w/out drama and you can use a large bolt and nut to clamp the tool onto the fixed cup (and good luck loosening that with this wrench...) Andy
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Old 06-20-24, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart
The HC-11 is the correct tool although it is somewhat thin and easy to damage unless securely held tightly against the cup (so the wrench won't slip off the flats on the cup). For cotterless cranks this is easy to contrive with the crank arm bolt/nut and washers/spacers. With a cottored crank axle less easily so. Hopefully the adjustable cup will unthread w/out drama and you can use a large bolt and nut to clamp the tool onto the fixed cup (and good luck loosening that with this wrench...) Andy
Wasn't planning on taking out the fixed cup. I sometimes leave that in if it's stuck. I suppose I could hit the adjustable cup with a hammer and large flat-blade to break it loose initially, then use the HCW-11, but I should ask, is this (or either) cup reverse threaded?

I will inquire on the vintage forum also. Their 3-speed thread has lots of cumulative expertise.

edit: just re-read you advice. Good call on the fixed cup, I would not have thought of using a bolt and nut once the spindle was removed. I'll file that away in my bag of tricks.
When I completely restore bikes, I strip them to the frame, and if necessary, maneuver the adjustable cup into my bench vice, then I have the whole bike to twist/lever the cup off.

Last edited by sunburst; 06-20-24 at 10:16 PM.
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Old 06-20-24, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by veganbikes
I would not recommend searching that on ebay. Get the proper tool and if the description has several mentions of the tool in different ways like that it is not going to be one of good quality. Get a good quality tool and buy once, cry once. Those sort of descriptions are best left to the fakes and knockoffs of the world and the cheap stuff nobody should ever buy unless beyond desperate.

I think the HCW-11 might work but I would check in the Classic and Vintage sub-forum lots of knowledgeable folks there who know the correct tool if not that. Possibly their lockring wrench might be the one. HCW-5


In terms of the stand loads of options, Pro (Shimano) makes one, Specialized sold them as Fork Stands, Sunlite had an adjustable one and there are tons of other options for them. Your local shop probably has a line on them. I would look at the Willworx Super Stand those are fantastic for holding up bikes.
yeah, was planning on popping for the Park tool. Unless someone advises against theirs and have a better alternative. One thing's for sure, my 16mm cone wrench would not move that cup!. Slips off very easily.

great info on the stands, TYVM!

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Old 06-20-24, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by sunburst
yeah, was planning on popping for the Park tool. Unless someone advises against theirs and have a better alternative. One thing's for sure, my 16mm cone wrench would not move that cup!. Slips off very easily.

great info on the stands, TYVM!
50-70 year old bikes have decades of rust to deal with... i tear down dozens of them every year...the socket i pointed you towards will work to remove nearly every rusted up old BB i've run into... the two i've not been able to remove came from a town called Seaside....in those cases, i used a carbide bit in my porting tool handpiece and cut the stuck cups in three places then collapsed them inward with a punch/hammer...Some people hate Ebay, and trash talk ANYTHING sold by them.... whatever.SMH

The socket will work when everything else fails. And there's a high probability that the need to "adjust" is really Worn out cups and/or the spindle is pitted, creating the offending looseness.... and the grease has likely never been changed since the 1960's

the key is to retain any wrench or socket in position as you apply torque.,.. IF YOU DON'T, the Wrench or socket will slip off Repeatedly until you are bleeding and sweating, and the Drive edges are destroyed....
I live in a rain forest, and the Pacific ocean is just over the hills a few miles... Rust is a year-round, daily thing here, even in the morning fogs....

i sincerely hope that cup moves for you, but there's a big chance it won't move easily, eh?

Good luck once again.
oh, and there's also a special tool used to remove the wedge-tapered cotter from the crank arms.. they love to get stuck too. New ones are still available, BTW... the bottom brackets/spindles, not so much.
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Old 06-21-24, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by maddog34
50-70 year old bikes have decades of rust to deal with... i tear down dozens of them every year...the socket i pointed you towards will work to remove nearly every rusted up old BB i've run into... the two i've not been able to remove came from a town called Seaside....in those cases, i used a carbide bit in my porting tool handpiece and cut the stuck cups in three places then collapsed them inward with a punch/hammer...Some people hate Ebay, and trash talk ANYTHING sold by them.... whatever.SMH

The socket will work when everything else fails. And there's a high probability that the need to "adjust" is really Worn out cups and/or the spindle is pitted, creating the offending looseness.... and the grease has likely never been changed since the 1960's

the key is to retain any wrench or socket in position as you apply torque.,.. IF YOU DON'T, the Wrench or socket will slip off Repeatedly until you are bleeding and sweating, and the Drive edges are destroyed....
I live in a rain forest, and the Pacific ocean is just over the hills a few miles... Rust is a year-round, daily thing here, even in the morning fogs....

i sincerely hope that cup moves for you, but there's a big chance it won't move easily, eh?

Good luck once again.
oh, and there's also a special tool used to remove the wedge-tapered cotter from the crank arms.. they love to get stuck too. New ones are still available, BTW... the bottom brackets/spindles, not so much.
I've got a slightly different Park lockring tool. Can't remember when a lockring has ever caused me any grief. It's the adjustable cup that I want to move.

I don't have the experience of many of you, but I've done about a hundred bikes, flipped 80, kept about 20. Dozens of those are from the 70's (and mostly French!), so I've done a lot of BB's and headsets. The really terrible ones were the ones stored outside, and those don't have to be that old to be a big problem. I absolutely stopped buying bikes from Stanford students because they sit outside year around and deteriorate quickly. But I opened up a 70's low end cottered Motobecane BB last week and surprisingly it was full of good grease still. Don't have the tool, but wish I did. I line everything up, support the crankarm with a block and hit the cotter with a hammer. I've only FUBAR'd one cotter, and it's now permanently stuck in place. Btw, as a very young man in college, I lived in Seaside CA. Owned one bike, one guitar and probably one (or two) pairs of Levi's 501. Life was simple.
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Old 06-21-24, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by sunburst
I've got a slightly different Park lockring tool. Can't remember when a lockring has ever caused me any grief. It's the adjustable cup that I want to move.

I don't have the experience of many of you, but I've done about a hundred bikes, flipped 80, kept about 20. Dozens of those are from the 70's (and mostly French!), so I've done a lot of BB's and headsets. The really terrible ones were the ones stored outside, and those don't have to be that old to be a big problem. I absolutely stopped buying bikes from Stanford students because they sit outside year around and deteriorate quickly. But I opened up a 70's low end cottered Motobecane BB last week and surprisingly it was full of good grease still. Don't have the tool, but wish I did. I line everything up, support the crankarm with a block and hit the cotter with a hammer. I've only FUBAR'd one cotter, and it's now permanently stuck in place. Btw, as a very young man in college, I lived in Seaside CA. Owned one bike, one guitar and probably one (or two) pairs of Levi's 501. Life was simple.
yep, who owned the bike, and how they cared for it matters greatly... the sockets i led you to are for the cups, and i've never found them anywhere except online from the bay and amazone... the "Seaside" i refer to is in Oregon, just south of the Columbia River. and it rains a LOT there.. add the salty sea air, and expect serious corrosion.
The sockets are easily retained to the frame/cups with a big bolt, nut, and fender washers... adding a compression spring to the work side will allow tension and more loosening before resetting the bolt, but is merely a convenience, IMO...

i've had a Sugino BB wrench for 40+ years... it hooks into the lockrings better than the Park Wrenches ..I have 3 park lockring wrenches, and they are Very diameter specific in design... i discussed a serious design issue of those park wrenches with one of their online "engineers"... he agreed with my design revision suggestions, but only offered another wrench... sigh.., but i got the double ended hook wrench for free, so, push... we'll see if their wrenches become more easy to use in the future... i tested their wrenches on a variety of rings, then labeled them as to what diameters they actually worked "ok" on... i still grab the trusty old Sugino wrench first.

for years i used a big 15" adjustable wrench on the "16mm" cups... getting it to stay on the drive faces was always a challenge, and then, with an assistant, i'd whack it with a 3 lb. mini sledge to attempt removing stuck cups... sometimes it worked, other times it would slip and trash the cup's drive surfaces... the sockets have saved me a lot of time and money since buying them.

so.. Retaining the tool's grip on the flats is THE MOST IMPORTANT thing... sounds like you've already began soaking the parts with penetrant... i use kroil, and mostly PB blaster on my projects...CLEAN the penetrant and any dirt from the drive faces of the cup... *a couple dabs of Valve Lapping compound can lend TRACTION to the wrench*... if the wrench slips, get the sockets.

here's hoping the cup is not a "permanent part" of the frame now...
and wear gloves, just in case.

Last edited by maddog34; 06-21-24 at 02:17 PM.
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Old 06-21-24, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by maddog34
yep, who owned the bike, and how they cared for it matters greatly... the sockets i led you to are for the cups, and i've never found them anywhere except online from the bay and amazone... the "Seaside" i refer to is in Oregon, just south of the Columbia River. and it rains a LOT there.. add the salty sea air, and expect serious corrosion.
The sockets are easily retained to the frame/cups with a big bolt, nut, and fender washers... adding a compression spring to the work side will allow tension and more loosening before resetting the bolt, but is merely a convenience, IMO...

i've had a Sugino BB wrench for 40+ years... it hooks into the lockrings better than the Park Wrenches ..I have 3 park lockring wrenches, and they are Very diameter specific in design... i discussed a serious design issue of those park wrenches with one of their online "engineers"... he agreed with my design revision suggestions, but only offered another wrench... sigh.., but i got the double ended hook wrench for free, so, push... we'll see if their wrenches become more easy to use in the future... i tested their wrenches on a variety of rings, then labeled them as to what diameters they actually worked "ok" on... i still grab the trusty old Sugino wrench first.

for years i used a big 15" adjustable wrench on the "16mm" cups... getting it to stay on the drive faces was always a challenge, and then, with an assistant, i'd whack it with a 3 lb. mini sledge to attempt removing stuck cups... sometimes it worked, other times it would slip and trash the cup's drive surfaces... the sockets have saved me a lot of time and money since buying them.

so.. Retaining the tool's grip on the flats is THE MOST IMPORTANT thing... sounds like you've already began soaking the parts with penetrant... i use kroil, and mostly PB blaster on my projects...CLEAN the penetrant and any dirt from the drive faces of the cup... *a couple dabs of Valve Lapping compound can lend TRACTION to the wrench*... if the wrench slips, get the sockets.

here's hoping the cup is not a "permanent part" of the frame now...
and wear gloves, just in case.
OK, I've been confused. I did not see that "search for this part on ebay". Duh, now it makes sense. Nice tool but I will need to remove the cottered crank arm first. Was hoping to avoid that with the Park HCW-11. But might as well open up the BB and check out the grease situation. I am surprised how much fun putting around on this Royal Scot is. I was just gifted it last year. Suits me very well at 70. And surprised how well the bike works at 50, now that I fixed the hub. I posted a recent question about it and replaced the clip with loose bearings. And this was a commuter bike with some use.

edit: I just ordered the tools, both sides.


Last edited by sunburst; 06-21-24 at 06:14 PM.
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Old 06-21-24, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by sunburst
Wasn't planning on taking out the fixed cup. I sometimes leave that in if it's stuck. I suppose I could hit the adjustable cup with a hammer and large flat-blade to break it loose initially, then use the HCW-11, but I should ask, is this (or either) cup reverse threaded?

I will inquire on the vintage forum also. Their 3-speed thread has lots of cumulative expertise.

edit: just re-read you advice. Good call on the fixed cup, I would not have thought of using a bolt and nut once the spindle was removed. I'll file that away in my bag of tricks.
When I completely restore bikes, I strip them to the frame, and if necessary, maneuver the adjustable cup into my bench vice, then I have the whole bike to twist/lever the cup off.
Rather than remove the adjustable cup and then try to remove the fixed cup, I suggest this procedure. Removing the fixed cup while having the spindle makes the job a whole lot easier. For a cottered crank, you could remove the right arm and use the left arm to trap the tool against the cup. Cotterless cranks are easier since you can bolt the spacer to the spindle and then wail on the tool as much as you like,.
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Old 06-21-24, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by sunburst
looking for a "track stand" (if that's the right name) for a friend. I own this. It was given to me 10+ years ago and it has been incredibly useful. No brand name anywhere. A friend wants one, or something similar. Any ideas?
I have a Nashbar "Stand By Me", which I bought many years ago. It's fairly adjustable and inexpensive.
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Old 06-21-24, 08:41 PM
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You have applied Penetrating Oil while hashing over what tool?
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Old 06-22-24, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by sunburst
looking for a "track stand" (if that's the right name) for a friend. I own this. It was given to me 10+ years ago and it has been incredibly useful. No brand name anywhere. A friend wants one, or something similar. Any ideas?
This is a similar stand.
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Old 06-22-24, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by sunburst
OK, I've been confused. I did not see that "search for this part on ebay". Duh, now it makes sense. Nice tool but I will need to remove the cottered crank arm first. Was hoping to avoid that with the Park HCW-11. But might as well open up the BB and check out the grease situation. I am surprised how much fun putting around on this Royal Scot is. I was just gifted it last year. Suits me very well at 70. And surprised how well the bike works at 50, now that I fixed the hub. I posted a recent question about it and replaced the clip with loose bearings. And this was a commuter bike with some use.

edit: I just ordered the tools, both sides.
A tip on removing cotters from those old crank arms... place an appropriate length of Steel water pipe under the big end of the cotter, and have the other end on concrete, supporting the crank, lifting the rear tire off the floor..... This will allow concentration of the removing force on the cotter and crank arm, not the tires... i use a 1/2" water pipe, and found a screw-on flange for the bottom end of the pipe... it really helps, directly coupling the crank arm to the floor, and eliminating energy absorption by the frame, wheels, and tires. The cotter is free to drop into the pipe

you may already know this tip, but the massive amount of visitors that read these posts for YEARS to come may not... last night i noted 9 members signed in on this page, and over SIX HUNDRED "Visitors" on at that same time....

Last edited by maddog34; 06-22-24 at 10:39 AM.
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Old 06-22-24, 10:47 AM
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search this on Amazone:

Bike Stand Floor Type Hub Mount Height Adjutable Steel Packing Bicycles Indoor Outdoor Storage Garge for 20-29 Inch Bicycle MTB Road Bike


who writes these goofy ad titles, anyway? smh

here's another one, found with the same basic search of: single bicycle display stand...

Ibera Foldable Bike Floor Stand for Bike Storage, Non-Scratch Bike Stand, Adjustable Height for 20"–29" Wheels, e-Bike, Fat Tire Bike Compatible


the spelling is better, but the price is higher!

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Old 06-22-24, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by maddog34
A tip on removing cotters from those old crank arms... place an appropriate length of Steel water pipe under the big end of the cotter, and have the other end on concrete, supporting the crank, lifting the rear tire off the floor..... This will allow concentration of the removing force on the cotter and crank arm, not the tires... i use a 1/2" water pipe, and found a screw-on flange for the bottom end of the pipe... it really helps, directly coupling the crank arm to the floor, and eliminating energy absorption by the frame, wheels, and tires. The cotter is free to drop into the pipe

you may already know this tip, but the massive amount of visitors that read these posts for YEARS to come may not... last night i noted 9 members signed in on this page, and over SIX HUNDRED "Visitors" on at that same time....
I use a 2x4, but have read others recommend the pipe, and it seems far superior. The flange makes a whole lot of sense. I built a chip up bar in my garage using two flanges, two 90 degree corners and 1/2" pre-threaded pipes. I will do the same for my cotter tool before I bring out the hammer.

Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun
You have applied Penetrating Oil while hashing over what tool?
yes, PB Blaster but someday when I'm feeling rich I'll buy some KROIL.
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Old 06-22-24, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by sunburst
I use a 2x4, but have read others recommend the pipe, and it seems far superior. The flange makes a whole lot of sense. I built a chip up bar in my garage using two flanges, two 90 degree corners and 1/2" pre-threaded pipes. I will do the same for my cotter tool before I bring out the hammer.


yes, PB Blaster but someday when I'm feeling rich I'll buy some KROIL.
Hondaline Makes some great rust buster too... HondaLube Rust Penetrant. the price has come down on it , and PB Blaster has increased... i see the hondalube online at around $12 a can now... i've had excellent luck with it when i was working at the Honda M/C shop, and racing offroad machines... we used it at Washougal MX Park too.

and here's a surprise penetrant to try some time,,, red can Brakleen... it has superior "tight fit" penetration due to a very low viscosity...i use it to transport PB into tight spots like totally rusted up bushings and bearings on axles, etc...

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Old 06-22-24, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by sweeks
I have a Nashbar "Stand By Me", which I bought many years ago. It's fairly adjustable and inexpensive.
I have been using that stand for years with a variety of bikes. The current incarnation pointed out on Amazon, is available on AliExpress, e.g., here. However, I would like to point out another option: a double-legged kickstand, especially one that does not interfere with pedals when unfolded, such as Hebie. Such a kickstand is a perfect workstand when unfolded and is available on the road. Its only deficiency is that it is tied to the particular bike.
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Old 06-23-24, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart
The HC-11 is the correct tool although it is somewhat thin and easy to damage unless securely held tightly against the cup (so the wrench won't slip off the flats on the cup). For cotterless cranks this is easy to contrive with the crank arm bolt/nut and washers/spacers. With a cottored crank axle less easily so. Hopefully the adjustable cup will unthread w/out drama and you can use a large bolt and nut to clamp the tool onto the fixed cup (and good luck loosening that with this wrench...) Andy
BikeSmithDesign makes a secure tool for the fixed cup:

https://bikesmithdesign.com/BBTool/index.html
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Old 06-24-24, 12:17 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson
BikeSmithDesign makes a secure tool for the fixed cup:

https://bikesmithdesign.com/BBTool/index.html
already ordered something very similar from Aliexpress. I will soon find out the quality, but it's something I don't expect to use much, maybe only once. I've never seen this type of adjustable cup in all my years of wrenching, as I usually do French bikes. Wish I had that cotter press though, especially 15-20 years ago when I started this. Pricey. Definitely worth it for a shop (although my last remaining local shop won't touch cotters!). I've got three remaining bikes with cotters then I'm done with my years of successful flipping.

Haha, I know I'm not the only person to say that, but I'm serious this time. The market is dead here in the Bay Area, Norcal, or maybe just saturated with post-pandemic giveaways. Unable to sell a very decent and refurbished bike for $100 in recent months, I gave away three bikes this week, and my two local bike charities wouldn't even take a look at them! Had to resort to FB, and you guys probably know what fools that attracts. 23 responses in a couple of hours, and maybe two of them actually read the ad.
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Old 06-24-24, 12:27 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
Rather than remove the adjustable cup and then try to remove the fixed cup, I suggest this procedure. Removing the fixed cup while having the spindle makes the job a whole lot easier. For a cottered crank, you could remove the right arm and use the left arm to trap the tool against the cup. Cotterless cranks are easier since you can bolt the spacer to the spindle and then wail on the tool as much as you like,.
man, I am having a real internet fail with this thread. I missed maddog's "search" suggestion for the stand, and I missed your "procedure" link. I read too fast when I get multiple responses.

That is brilliant, TYVM! Another trick to add to my arsenal. And this is definitely an example of "a picture..." I really need to see something to understand it.

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