Originally Posted by cyccommute (Post 23510910)

Again, wax whether applied via hot wax or solvent wax does not wash off. It simply can’t. Oil can’t really wash off either. Wax is a long chain hydrocarbon that has an even lower water solubility than de minimus solubility in water that oil does. Oil can be floated off when water gets under the oil…think oil and vinegar salad dressing…but even that is minimal. That fact has lead me to the realization of how waxed chains wear compared to how oiled chains wear.

Yes, waxed chains will generally squeak after water exposure but that is because of the exposed metal in the pin/plate interface that results as a waxed chain is used.

Squirt might be the exception to water solubility. While it is a wax, it is also treated with surfactants (soap) to make it soluble in water. In the presence of water, surfactant could be reactivated and the wax would wash off.

Originally Posted by Kontact (Post 23512079)

The fact that you are a chemist does not license you to ignore reality. Water is abrasive, and an abrasive fluid can loosen oil, wax, bubblegum or anything else that is plastered on smooth metal.

The fact that you make such pronouncements really underlines the limits of your judgement.

Originally Posted by Kontact (Post 23512079)

The fact that you are a chemist does not license you to ignore reality. Water is abrasive, and an abrasive fluid can loosen oil, wax, bubblegum or anything else that is plastered on smooth metal.

Originally Posted by cyccommute (Post 23512094)

Not by the definition of “abrasive”…”a substance or material) capable of polishing or cleaning a hard surface by rubbing or grinding.” Water can dissolve material and it can carry other materials that are not water soluble or have low water solubility like silicon dioxide (quartz) or dissolved salts that can be corrosive to the substance that water is flowing over. Or it can carry materials capable of changing the character of the water like surfactants. Wax has an extremely low solubility in water, on the order of part per trillion or below. You could agitate a the amount of wax on a bicycle chain…let’s say 20g…in thousands of gallons of water for days, weeks, years, or decades and not see appreciable dissolution of the wax. And, again, add in some salts and that solubility goes down by several order of magnitude. That in science speak is 1000s of times lower.

No one I’ve ever run across has called water “abrasive”.

Oil has a better chance of washing off a chain than wax does because it has a lower molecular weight and a far lower viscosity. No one says oil washes off a chain in water.



Your pronouncements of my lack of knowledge are constantly wrong. If one wanted to be petty, one might question the limits of both your judgement and knowledge. One might also say that you are grasping at straws.

Originally Posted by Kontact (Post 23512116)

Geez, great to know that pressure washers and water jet cutters are a figment of my imagination.

Originally Posted by Scott902 (Post 23512204)

so after all this...have we decided whats the best chain lube? :lol:

Originally Posted by Scott902 (Post 23512204)

so after all this...have we decided whats the best chain lube? :lol:

Originally Posted by Kontact (Post 23512116)

Geez, great to know that pressure washers and water jet cutters are a figment of my imagination.

Originally Posted by cyccommute (Post 23512296)

Not that any of that has anything to do with rain water falling on a chain. There is no pressure from the water falling on a chain nor even from the water being splashed on the chain.

Originally Posted by PeteHski (Post 23512305)

But plenty of pressure between the chain and gear teeth.

Originally Posted by Scott902 (Post 23512204)

so after all this...have we decided whats the best chain lube? :lol:

Originally Posted by spclark (Post 23512211)

the hot waxed chain, once installed, tends to throw particles onto my bikes various components, and the mat under it when mounted on trainer. What's a practical approach to removing this stuff when doing basic cleaning? The bits seem to resist simple dry towel-wiping, and I'm hesitant to to use any solvents.

Originally Posted by cyccommute (Post 23512315)

No more (or less) than when using oil.



In your experience? I thought you avoided rain. I don’t like to ride in the rain but it can be hard to avoid when traveling by bike. I’ve been rained on lots of times and for long periods of time. I only use drip wax. I’ve never felt the need to add more drip wax during the ride. I will add refresh it after a ride but never during.

But oil isn’t perfect when it comes to rain. It only masks the same issue. Water splashed on a chain will mix with the oil. Once the chain is allowed to sit, the water and oil will phase separate. The oil will be sitting on top of the water and the water has a greater affinity for the metal than oil does…it’s a Van der Waals/polarity thing. The water trapped against the steel is oxygenated and facilitates corrosion of the steel. In layman’s terms, it makes rust. The chain would squeak if the oil weren’t masking the corrosion. My long winded point being, oil should also be refreshed after rain.

Originally Posted by rosefarts (Post 23504715)

I'm hot waxing my fleet.

On the road bike, it seems to last for hundreds of miles. Not sure exactly how much but its just never a problem.

The mountain bike lasts many rides. I ride that bike a ton and only switch chains a few times a year.

Now to the gravel bike. Unless it's a particularly short ride, the wax isn't enough to get through a single ride of 3+ hours.

All are done the same way, wash with soap and water and a few drops of degreaser. Rinse and dry. Then let soak it the waxy crock pot and agitate it so all bubbles come up. I let it stay in long enough to get to the same temperature as the wax, easy to see since a cold chain will turn white as the wax hardens on it.



My formula is paraffin and some powder PTFE. Based on information from here, I won't be adding any more PTFE once I run out since it isn't great for the environment and probably doesn't improve any performance.

I live in dry and dusty Central Oregon. The only water my bikes see is on vacation or me walking through a snow drift.

Are there any additives or premixed formulas that'll get my gravel bike wax longevity up to what I'm getting on the others? I don't mind some maintenance in the pursuit of cleanliness but I've got to be able to finish a ride without squeaks.

Originally Posted by cyccommute (Post 23512094)

Not by the definition of “abrasive”…”a substance or material) capable of polishing or cleaning a hard surface by rubbing or grinding.” Water can dissolve material and it can carry other materials that are not water soluble or have low water solubility like silicon dioxide (quartz) or dissolved salts that can be corrosive to the substance that water is flowing over. Or it can carry materials capable of changing the character of the water like surfactants. Wax has an extremely low solubility in water, on the order of part per trillion or below. You could agitate a the amount of wax on a bicycle chain…let’s say 20g…in thousands of gallons of water for days, weeks, years, or decades and not see appreciable dissolution of the wax. And, again, add in some salts and that solubility goes down by several order of magnitude. That in science speak is 1000s of times lower.

No one I’ve ever run across has called water “abrasive”.

Oil has a better chance of washing off a chain than wax does because it has a lower molecular weight and a far lower viscosity. No one says oil washes off a chain in water.



Your pronouncements of my lack of knowledge are constantly wrong. If one wanted to be petty, one might question the limits of both your judgement and knowledge. One might also say that you are grasping at straws.

Originally Posted by Kontact (Post 23512442)

You go tell the aviation industry that prop abrasion from rain (distilled water) doesn't exist. Tell them you are a chemist.

Originally Posted by cyccommute (Post 23512511)

You do like to dig holes don’t you? First, from what I can find, airplane people call it “prop erosion”. I never said erosion doesn’t exist. That, in fact, is the mechanism for water removing material over long periods of time. Either the water is carrying abrasive materials like grit and dust and different sized rocks. The sources I’ve found suggest that flying in dust and dirt can cause “prop erosion”.

Second we aren’t moving at anywhere near the speed of a propeller. Water hitting the propeller could cause erosion of the metal or wood using the same mechanisms that occur in nature. Water dissolves materials and can do so quickly especially when greater force is involved. Air has lots of stuff in that that isn’t water and isn’t air but is highly abrasive and water can carry that material with it. Add in a high angular speed of the prop and erosion could be quite fast. And rain falling through the atmosphere isn’t the same as distilled water.

But we don’t move at that kind of speed when riding a bike. The impact of water on the drivetrain is going to be close to that of water coming from a hose or shower head at household pressure or less…probably much less. Do you get into the shower and expect the water to strip your skin off? When you ride in the rain are you going so fast that the rain hitting you leaves holes? Does it strip the paint from your bike?

Originally Posted by Kontact (Post 23512539)

You are playing word games, and clearly can't think outside of any box you aren't already inside.

Originally Posted by cyccommute (Post 23512566)

No word games. Science.



Including myself. I’ve not said that the pressure at the pin/plate contact is low. I understand that it is quite high. I’ve also not argued that water in the chain is excluded from the interior of the chain. In fact, my hypothesis that the pin/plate contact is starved of lubricant and the manner in which that starvation occurs as well as why oil lubricant pumps grit into the pin/plate contact depends on flow into and out of the pin/plate contact. My argument with your loopy “wax melting” idea isn’t that there may be sufficient pressure, it with the idea that there isn’t sufficient heat or, more properly, that there aren’t traces of the heat required to melt wax.



Yes it does matter. Water is erosive because in its pure form it dissolves the material in object it flows over and erode the material away. Erosion can be increased by entraining abrasive material in the water as it flows over an object or by including materials that are corrosive to the material it is flowing over (or in contact with). Water by itself is not abrasive at all and is, in fact, a lubricant. See the ice skating example way up in this thread. Oil can be made abrasive as well by adding an abrasive material to it. That’s the reason that oil lubricated chains wear out. Grit entrained in the oil abrades the metal. Water is a bit more reactive because it can dissolve small amounts of some materials but that is not the definition of abrasive.



I’ve got a lot of experience with a lot of things. I’m also quite knowledgeable about a lot of things. Just because I don’t have direct experience with something doesn’t mean that I can’t learn about it and explain what is happening.



Well that’s on old chestnut and a non sequitur



Only ridiculous because you lack understanding. You can’t even summarize what I’ve said properly. And you seem to be conflating your own arguments with what I’ve said. Try to keep up.



Wax doesn’t act like an oil at a fine scale (I’m guessing you mean molecular), nor any scale. It is a plastic material. It is somewhat like oil at a molecular level since it is part of the homologous series of hydrocarbons of which oil, wax, methane, propane, etc. are a part. It just happens to have more carbon and hydrogen atoms in the chain which make it solid at room temperature instead of a liquid. But it behaves like a solid, albeit a soft one.



Water doesn’t interfere with the process. Wax is infinitely insoluble in water.

But you are so close to getting it. The wax is eroded off the high pressure surface by the fact that it is plastic and can’t flow back into the high pressure surface once it is squeezed out. Water on the chain infiltrates to the high pressure surface which is exposed metal and the oxygen that the water is carrying along with the water’s ability to move around electrons and, perhaps with a little help from electrolytes that are all around us, starts the self-corrosion cell potential that we eventually call rust. It’s not the water that does it but all the other stuff that water is very good at carrying along with it.

Water cannot, however, carry wax anywhere except on top of it.



I think you are trying to say that I’m committing the fallacy of argument to authority (argumentum ad verecundiam in Latin). The definition of argumentum ad verecandiam is “insisting that a claim is true simply because a valid authority or expert on the issue said it was true, without any other supporting evidence offered.” But I have offered ample supporting evidence to each of my claims in refutation of your claims. You, on the other hand, have grasped at straws and offered no explanation for your claims other than being credulous. That’s a different fallacy.

Originally Posted by Kontact (Post 23512620)

Ah, science:

Clean a new chain in gasoline or some other near-perfect oil solvent. Then mount it on a clean drivetrain and ride it in dry conditions. Since you believe chains squeak due to rust, this combination will not squeak.

Originally Posted by Kontact (Post 23512539)

It was already suggested by multiple posters that the intermittent drivetrain pressures can force water into places in the chain. No one suggested it was the bicycle's velocity.

It doesn't matter if water is considered an abrasive or erosive, just as it doesn't matter if the water is pure or not. The only thing that matters is if the actual water that gets on bike chains can cause the wax to "erode" off critical surfaces through a mechanical process analogous to what happens to propellers and pump impellers.
.

Originally Posted by cyccommute (Post 23512919)

Not what I’ve said and not necessarily true. I know that a dry chain would probably make a lot of noise compared to a lubricated one. I will agree with the oilers that an oiled chain is quieter than a waxed chain and would agree that an unlubricated chain is going to be far noisier than a waxed chain. From a wear standpoint I hypothesize that an unlubricated chain will not accelerate wear. That’s “hypothesize” or “think” or “guess (with some knowledge)” or “probably should test”, etc. I’ve also stated that i’m not brave enough to do it because I’m unsure of the results. That’s what science does. It hypothesizes a question, devises a test, tests the hypothesis, reviews the data, perhaps modifies the parameters, and repeats as needed. Sometimes hypotheses remain untested for a variety of reasons…funding, can’t work out a way to test it, and, very often, cowardice. Scientist often fail to test something because of a fear of failure. I’ll admit that I’m afraid to test running a dry chain to destruction because of my own biases about chain lubrication and my own unwillingness to endure a squeaking chain for thousands of miles.

At the risk of offending people who don’t like long (but necessary) explanations, I’m going to go back and further address this comment



As I’ve stated, I have no argument with the idea that there is significant pressure at the pin/plate interface. I think we can agree that the pressure occurs independently of what lubricant is being used. I also think we can agree that water can be pumped into the interface independently of what lubricant is being used. Why, then, does wax perform so poorly in wet conditions compared to oil? Oil, being a liquid, is far easier to remove from the pin/plate interface. Wax, being a plastic solid, should stick around better and, since it is a solid that is filling the bushings, it should prevent water infiltration. I don’t think I’ve ever heard someone say that wax performs better in wet conditions compared to oil however. Even a freshly waxed chain exposed to rain during riding will need to be waxed again. Why does wax do this? Why doesn’t oil do the same?

Rhetorical question. We all know from nearly daily experience that oil and water don’t mix. What many don’t understand is that oil and water can’t mix. Oil can be suspended in water but it won’t mix…dissolve in chemistry terms. What many people don’t understand is that wax is has the same chemical makeup of oil but is a solid. Wax and water don’t mix just the same as oil and water don’t mix.

Additionally, if water “washed wax off”, the outside of the chain would be clean of wax. Mine has never been. There has always been wax on the outside of the chain just as there would be if oil were used.

All of this evidence…wax not washed off the outside of the chain, water insolubility of wax, oil performing better in rain than wax, and wax’s poor performance after rain…have all lead me to the conclusion that wax starves the pressure points and leaves bare metal that can rust after water exposure leading to squeaking. From there it’s fairly easy to see the different modes of wear due to oil…grit…and oil…metal-on-metal contact.