Worn freewheel, or wrong chain type?
 

Hi, it’s been awhile. This is my Schwinn Woodlands I got new in 1988. I’ve been slowly renewing parts on it with OEM looking parts, as time and money allows. I’ve never done anything with the chain besides lube and clean it occasionally. Last year I had a cracked link so I decided to replace it with a Walmart chain listed for 5 speeds. 1/2”, 3/32-1/8”.

Well even after matching the length, the new chain skipped like crazy on the two smallest sprockets. I thought perhaps it was low tension from the derailleur, so I tried a NOS Shimano Tourney, same model as the original, and no change. I put the original back on but with new jockey wheels as the originals had noticeable slop. No change. Tried shortening the chain to increase tension. No change. Bought an extra new chain.

So I replaced the cracked link and put the old chain back on. Works great again but ain’t gonna last forever. I read a lot about worn freewheel teeth causing skip with a new chain. But I’ve found many pictures with sprockets that look similar to mine and people say it’s not really that worn at all. It also runs great, a few years ago I pulled it apart and cleaned and lubed the internals. I ride 90% on paved trails.

This freewheel seems hard to find, it’s a Shimano MF-Z012 with 14-17-21-26-32 teeth. Most I see top out at 28, and my 32 is really important to me for hills. If anything I’d go bigger, but absolutely not smaller. I don’t want to buy another freewheel if it’s not needed. I’m also reading that there are different tooth forms, etc. that would behave differently. Mine is a friction shift, no indexing.

Granted the old chain has some old lube buildup, but it looks a bit different. It looks heavier, and all the plates appear to be straight. More like an old BMX. Where the new chain has scalloped plates and while the inside width is the same, it’s definitely lighter and more twisty and flexy.

So to get to my questions. How does my freewheel look for wear? And is there a different type of chain I should be getting?

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2a1deab4ec.png

The freewheel looks good to me, but it can be hard to tell.

I would abandon Walmart as a chain dealer and next try a reputable $20 6/7/8 brand name chain. 3/32" is not the same as 1/8"!

Sometimes, a freewheel will wear in with its chain and will skip with a new chain. When a new chain skips, that is a sign to replace a freewheel.

I suspect you are out of luck replacing your freewheel with a new one. Anything five-speed is hard to find nowadays.

If you do get the bike working, replacing your chain before it wears out is the best way to prolong the life of your freewheel.

Your freewheel is worn, at least that’s exactly what your symptoms point to. You may be able to fine a Sunrace freewheel with the 32 tooth gear. Or a 6 speed freewheel might fit too.

The top sprocket looks quite worn, the next also but not as much. 14-32 in 5 speed won't be easy to find, you might want to consider fitting a smaller chainring so 14-28 is low enough, or respacing the hub and frame so you can use 6 speed, or ideally 7 speed as that's the current base level - 13-32 13-34 14-32 14-34 are quite common in 7 speed freewheels such as SunRace; your derailleur and shifter should work OʻK with those freewheels AFAIAA. (But the larger unsupported axle length may be a weak spot - 5 speed is definitely kinder to the axle.)

As others have said, the freewheel is worn grumpus called it right about the largest and next largest sprockets being worn. You may be able to find a used 5-speed freewheel at a local bike co-op or volunteer shop. Or even ebay https://www.ebay.com/itm/115699148918?

It's the smallest and next smallest cogs that are worn out. The chain skipping on those two says it all.

Many if not most casual riders tend to avoid using the large front chainring and instead use the middle chainring (of a triple-chainring setup) or the smaller chainring (of a double) almost exclusively and do most of their level-ground riding in the smallest two cogs in back. Hence the wear pattern.

A very simple solution for the OP, if a suitable new freewheel is hard to find:

Get in the habit of shifting to the biggest chainring and to the middle cog(s) in back for level-ground riding. You probably haven't used those middle cogs much over the years compared to the smallest two and the largest. You should be able to get many more miles out of the original freewheel if you use the large chainring more and avoid using those two cogs.

Also, it might be easier to find a replacement freewheel with a 34 large cog than one with a 32. In fact, here's a seller with a new 14-34 5-speed freewheel in stock at Amazon, and other (non-Amazon) sellers might have new ones in stock, too.

The chain might need to have a couple of links put back in if a freewheel with a 34 large cog is installed. If a freewheel with 34 large cog is installed, best to have the chain length checked by a bike shop.

You probably meant "smallest and next smallest". I wrote "top sprocket" and "next".

OP: if that's also the original freewheel for the bike, you may have backed yourself into a bit of a corner.

If/when a bike's chain and sprockets/chainrings wear together long enough, they can become effectively a "mated for life" pair - and neither will work properly with new counterparts. They then have to be replaced in pairs.

This is particularly true if you ride primarily in one or two rear gears and on one front chainring. In that case, if you do so long enough the chainring can also become worn enough to be mated to that chain. (Years ago when I was much more naive re: cycling, I found all of this out the hard way.)

Sounds to me like that's what's happened to your bike. If so, and if keeping a 32T rear cog is of overriding importance to you, as I see it you have four options - only one of which is fast, cheap, and easy. And, unfortunately, that option is a "kick the can down the road" option.

Option 1: assuming you still have the old chain, use a 6/7/8-speed quick link to replace the broken link in the old chain, and keep using that chain. This is the "kick the can" option, but might work for a while - but may also accelerate wear on the front chainring(s) and rear cogs. It's also only feasible if the broken link was an outer link.

Option 2: find a good used or new 5-speed freewheel (eBay, co-op, elsewhere) with a 32T largest cog and pair that with a new chain. Unfortunately, used will very likely be easier to find than new with a 32T largest rear in 5-speed. That may take a while.

Option 3: re-space the bike's rear dropouts to 126mm, rework the rear hub as required (may need new axle and some spacers), re-dish the rear wheel, and get a new 6- or 7-speed freewheel and chain. Fair amount of work (and $$$ if done by a shop), but might be worth it to you. It should also let you keep using the bike for a reasonably long time.

Option 4: have the old freewheel overhauled (some cogs will likely need to be replaced due to wear) and use it with a new chain. That's unfortunately a dying skill, but BF member pastorbobnlnh still does that. His reputation for such work is stellar. Dunno if he does Shimano freewheels or not; you can contact him via PM to ask if he doesn't see this thread. His website is

https://www.freewheelspa.com/

Hopefully it's only some of the freewheel cogs and not also one of your chainrings that's worn enough to slip. In my case, I ended up replacing both.

Best of luck.

Despite what others claim, I don't see anything that looks worn.. You seem to indicate skipping is the main issue. What do you mean by skip and when does it occur? Skipping as I imagine it is only when the fully engaged chain actually roll over the teeth of the sprocket. This generally will only be a new chain on worn out sprockets and only when a lot of power is applied to accelerate or on a very hard climb.

If by skipping, you mean that the chain isn't fully engaged with the sprockets and it's side plates are riding on the tops of the teeth, then that is likely to be something other than wear.

Is this friction shift or indexed shift? Indexing might need some adjustment of the barrel adjuster. Either on the RD or somewhere else. Downtube or on the shift levers themselves if they are a shift lever only and mounted on the bars.

It's entirely possible that your RD hanger is bent and just coincidentally about the time you changed the chain. So the new chain shows the issues of a bent RD hanger more so than your old chain. Sometime a little hard to see twist of the hanger can make a lot of problems.

Look at the teeth on the smallest sprocket: the driven side is clearly more concave, almost hooked compared to the unworn side. The old chain was riding up the teeth and now the new chain cannot locate properly - it may "bed in" with use but that's just rapid wear, and I'd always be nervous about riding it hard.

I don't see it. Not enough to be the issue. And still, I'm not sure the skipping the OP is describing is the skipping a worn sprocket will cause. I think that the OP's chain just isn't falling onto and engaging with the teeth. Which can be misadjusted indexing or a bent hanger.

+1

Enough to see is a lot. (Edit: That's why you don't see chain wear tools for cogs. There is no nice easy point to measure to. Not like the very easy to see and measure pins on the chain.) I have lots of old cogs and freewheels that are past new chain use with no visible wear at all outside the bare steel shine of the tooth concave. Grump's post was my first thought when I saw the photo. Checking the indexing and hanger is like checking the brake fluid and drums/discs on a car with completely bald tires. Yes, good. But if you want to stop, replace those tires!

And yes, the OP might be able to ride a new chain into behaving on the small cogs but that will be because he has rapidly aged that new chain to sufficiently stretched.

I'd be more likely to agree with you if the OP will only confirm what is meant by the chain skipping.

There also is the possibility that this isn't a skip of the chain. But a dirty or sticky pawls in the FW that don't engage or don't engage fully.

If I was asking a question here, I'd want to know all the possibilities and not just have everyone on the same bandwagon. I am okay if my possibilities are not what the OP's problem turns out to be. .

Lots of good info, thanks so much!

I do indeed primarily use the largest and smallest freewheel sprockets. And the only time I use the larger crank sprocket is when on the small freewheel sprocket and I want top speed.

The skipping is only with the new chain. Old chain is in the picture because that doesn’t skip at all. It’s like the chain comes up out of the smallest two freewheel sprockets randomly under load. But that’s the only place it happens. Not on the larger freewheel sprockets. Not on the crank sprockets. That’s why I thought it might have been a tension issue. Actually the derailleur has some angle float, both the old and new one are about the same that way.

It’s a friction shift with no index. So I can set the shift lever as needed by feel, to center the chain in each sprocket.

This is absolutely a “kick the can along” bike. I only ride it a few months a year on local trails around town, no schedule. I keep it for nostalgia and because it fits me nicely. We are as worn in together as the original chain and freewheel. I won’t sink a ton of money into it. I’ve been renewing parts as needed and while it’s been nice to keep things OEM, I’m not opposed to different parts if needed.

A used freewheel may give me the same problems, so I only want new or NOS. I don’t see much for Shimano 5 speed freewheels with my tooth count, but I see plenty of Suntour. Would they fit?

I also would be open to installing new freewheel sprockets, if that’s more available. I checked out some videos on that, and I could definitely do that. I’m an engineer and work on cars. It’s just that when it comes to bikes, it’s less experience.

For the time being, I’ll keep the old chain on and fix it if needed. Is there a preferred chain I should use for this old 10 speed non index shifted bike?

I see 5 speed freewheels on Amazon for just about $15. you lose a couple teeth on the big side only going to 28, but that shouldn't be a problem with a triple up front. The challenge can be getting the old thread on freewheel off.

you say it's a "walmart chain"... maybe it's a BELL Chain?
they suck... i've had a few donated to the shop... they are worn out right from the package, and should be avoided.

Search on Ebay: KMC Z-50 5/6/7-Speed Chain 116 Links Silver Brown Road MTB Commuter

or a general search for: KMC Z-50 chain.

about $11, shipped.
they AREN'T worn out from the factory.

the freewheel looks ok, from what i can see.

In the end go to your local shop and get a proper chain and freewheel. IRD makes good quality freewheels and Dimension and SunRace make some low cost ones. Yes you can faff about on random sites that sell anything but you are less and less likely to get legit parts as most of these manufacturers don't do 3rd party sales. You could easily be buying another Wally-mart style chain but with a faked package.

Freewheel might be OK but old dirty parts with new quality parts aren't a great mix. So I would rather just have a new freewheel and chain and eliminate issues. pastorbobnlnh might be able to rehab the freewheel you have but in the end looking at what little of the bike we can see I might just get a new one and be done with it.

Good eye!

Thanks everyone for getting me started. I’ve definitely learned quite a bit here. A bit overwhelming at first.

The chain brand is actually “Bike Shop”, which isn’t even the same brand as they sell this year. I remember when they sold Bell. It’s probably always the cheapest thing they can get. I had previously referred to this thread below, but maybe they actually used to sell something good. Because it’s the same KMC reference as now. That’s what I’ll be getting to replace it.

https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-m...reewheels.html

I took a bunch of measurements today, and actually the old and new chains are overall the same, except the old one is worn about .010” wider on the inside. New chain is just sloppier.

I just had the freewheel off a few years back, when I took it apart, cleaned and re-lubed it. Along with all the other bearings on the bike. Never had it off before that. So should be no problem this time.

After reading about tooth types, I see mine has the Uniglide twisted teeth. I would like the same thing because I would think it affects how it shifts.

I have 2 crank sprockets, and am not interested right now in changing them or adding a third.

So today I found a NOS Shimano freewheel with 14-34 uniglide teeth, spaced proportionally similar to what I have now. Got it on order. Might need another couple chain links. From the reading on here, my particular derailleur allows for even the Suntour 38t sprocket, so I should be good.

I’ll update when I get the parts and get it together. Got some car work to do too next month.

Got my freewheel a couple days ago. Tonight after work I was waiting for car parts and it was nice out. So I did the swap. I just stuck the Walmart chain on it to see how it would behave. Also something to mess with to get the length correct.

And no more skipping! I ran it around the driveway and yard, testing it with some pretty good torque in all gears. So it had to have been the freewheel. Now gonna order one of those KMC chains.

And some original style rear brake pads with the rectangular metal casings. That’s been bugging me for years since a shop put those oval pads on the rear, they never even worked that great either. Fronts are original and work perfectly. Little things like that are what I’m doing to it. It’s not the prettiest thing but it’s a piece of me. I love how it’s small and light and easy to carry around.

Thanks so much for the help everyone!

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4d78c3c435.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...65ee914d81.jpg
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Glad the new freewheel made the problem go away.

I've noticed that it's the people who have spent years as bike shop mechanics who quickly prescribe the new-chain-skipping-on-old-freewheel fix of installing a new freewheel, since they've usually seen it before dozens of times.

Is that brake pad on the rear overlapping the tyre a little bit?

Thank you! If you said you were keeping that Walmart chain I was going to point and laugh at you from afar.

Glad you got it sorted though. Cheers.

It’s possible. I didn’t pay any attention to the alignment of the rear brakes when I put it back together last night. Just wanted to get it going and put away. Those oval rear pads got put on within the first few years I had it, and I didn’t even ask to have it done. I’ve tried many adjustments over the years but they’ve never been as firm and solid as the front block pads. Like they’re a softer material perhaps.

Not unusual for the rear brake to feel that way just because of the longer cable housing allowing you to feel more collapse compared to the front brake. This will be a project for another day. When you decide to go through the brakes, don't skimp on housing. Make sure you have a way to cut it, either a dedicated cable cutter or a dremel with high speed cutoff wheel.