Taking a Leap
 

Carbon rims... hookless... 'tubeless ready'...

$1,999 (retail) Reserve CF rim marked down to $398....

Should I?

I can afford this now, no WAY would I even consider it at the full-bore retail.

Questions:

Can a 22mm 'hookless' inside width 32mm depth CF rim work safely with tires that are rated for tubeless but have beads intended for hooked rims?

Can I use a tube anyway? I've not (yet) messed with tubeless, not sure I want to venture down that path with a new-to-me CF rim at the same time.

I'd take some unbranded direct from China made carbon wheels for the same price over hookless, personally. One is dangerous due to skipping QC, the other is dangerous due to design to save rim manufacturers money. At least you got a chance of a safe product with the former.

You should be able to use tubes. I've been riding "tubeless ready" wheels for 8 years with tubes. I've considered trying tubeless when I replace tires on that bike, but I just haven't felt the need. The one flat I have had with this bike wouldn't have self sealed anyway as it was a nasty gash.

more info on Hookless RIMS.. the compatible/approved TIRES remain scarce...

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/p...ed-them-468466

it seems to boil down to slight gains in Carbon Fiber strengths, and Cheaper MFG. costs.. with the Costs leading the way..
i'd have to see the Claimed weight benefits on my scale.... 300 grams/rim? ... :foo:
(just weighed an old narrow Aluminum rim, with grommets... 410 grams.. i'm suspecting a typo... the CF rim would have to suddenly be Lighter Than Air.)
and the Profile benefits are related more to internal width, not bead design of the rim, IMO.
the Claimed aero benefit from a tire profile change only amounts to something at extreme speeds or really stiff headwinds.. and that "something' is still only a very minor thing.

I wouldn't do hookless. Especially for your first carbon fiber wheel set. It might be typical that something might happen to give you a bad feeling about carbon rims that was actually a issue with hookless rims.

There have been more than a few recent threads where others are questioning hookless.

Most of the old Schwinn's I had were hookless rims. I didn't have any issue with them. However I was using steel bead tires. The better tires today aren't steel bead. Although I'm not saying that there is anything amiss with Kevlar bead folding tires. But I'm not certain all the data is in. Even some pro's are moving away from hookless.

It might be that when inflation is correct, that there isn't any issue. But when too high or too low, then issues can happen. And in that area, hooked rims might be a tad more forgiving of high or low pressures than hookless.

Ahhh... thanks all for your contributions here.

The 'hookless' nature of these rims may be why they're so deeply discounted methinks... I'll take the T,BNT option this time 'round.

yep... my thoughts exactly... and the Lack of compatible tires too... that "sale price" is WAY below wholesale cost... or the Retail quote was artificially jacked WAY up... a tactic that makes me walk away from most "great deals!"

Hookless…… oh hell no.
Semi hookless….. Nope, not even on a bet.

If it looks too good to be true…………

Barry

Yes, but only if that tire is on the compatibility list for that specific hookless rim.

In the case of hookless rims, yes, but only temporarily in case of emergencies, i.e., a gash that would not seal so you need a tube to get back.

Disclaimer: I have not used tubeless bike tires. But in general...

The hook on rims is needed to keep the tire radially concentric on the rim. Without a hook, in order to preserve concentricity, requires a close fit to an inner rim shoulder on which the tire bead seats, and the closeness of that radial fit makes a big difference in whether the tire dismounts when getting a flat on a fast descent. And then, you need a "drop-center" to the rim to be able to mount and dismount the tire, and the depth of the drop center is directly related to the depth of the rim sidewall; If the tire seats 6mm inside the rim to the shoulder, than the drop center needs to be that depth to unseat the tire, though that can be fudged a bit because the tire can go into the drop center for 3/4 its circumference to lever off the other 1/4, and then that overlaps the outside of the rim as you unseat the other 3/4. Lastly, the more tire sidewall that is inside the rim sidewall, the more rolling friction you will have. Ideal, in my opinion, is to have a hooked rim for less tire sidewall inside the rim, plus safety shoulders inside to keep a flat tire on until levered off, plus, those shoulders improve the lateral stiffness of the rim sidewall, which is especially important for use of rim brakes.

Double-check that they are truly "hookless" ...every Reserve carbon rim I've seen was what they call "semi-hooked"

...not that I have any idea what that implies.

I'm with you in that.

And thanks for the other info you've given me that expands my knowledge base.

One of the many reasons why I come here. I learn a lot in the coming, stuff I'd have to gain by T&E on my own... not always with a positive outcome.

Never having been confronted by one first hand, best I can share is a pic from the outlet:
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d74c183142.jpg

That fine, light trace just left of the rim edge may delineate what you suggest may be 'semi-hookless'... I'll have to ask. Maybe add a request for 'approved' tire list at the same time.

Some prolific posters here pontificate at length on a given subject, only to be called out subsequently by more-knowledgeable people for delivering, to put it diplomatically, misinformation.

Decades ago, before the '70's bike boom, most bikes used fairly wide, low-pressure tires. Hookless rims were standard on most of those bikes. But when bikes that used high-performance, high-pressure tires became common, hooked rims became the standard. Hookless all but disappeared.

Until carbon rims showed up and manufacturers discovered how expensive it is to produce carbon rims with tire retention hooks. Suddenly hookless was great, at least according to their more or less specious arguments.

Could be that those rims being on such deep discount means that the company got prior notification that some regulatory agency (the UCI, maybe) is getting set to ban hookless rims for professional road and track racing. If so, they might exempt gravel bikes and MTBs.

I might be wrong but I have a suspicion all hookless carbon wheels are disc brake.

Not that I’d use them either way.

That's pretty much Rule #1 regarding how to take what one finds on this Internet thing... cast a wide net, catch some keepers, throw the rest back or maybe cut for bait.

I've felt for a long time that too much information is a better place to start than too little. At minimum, the former inspires further questions while the latter can make even knowing how to ask questions more demanding.

I didn't 'pay attention' to what's been going on in the wide world of bicycle tech for decades. Why coming here for answers makes this a valuable resource.

I just went shopping for a customer's project... There are ZERO Hooked bead 29er Carbon fiber rims on Ebay, so far... i'm in four "50 listings" pages now...
The rims are all Hookless, most are asymetric, and priced above 220 dollars or so, except a few.....

the Chinese CF rim "industry" has moved to hookless before the tire companies.
i'd imagine the Tire Co.s are hard at work, playing catch up...

Oh yes, I was thinking about aluminum rims. I wouldn't use rim brakes on carbon rims unless I was a high-competing road racer, unless they've gone to discs now, I don't know, I haven't watched racing for decades.

Brief reply to a query I'd sent out came back with "I have these wheels and run the Panaracer Gravel King."

Nothing more.

Very much so. Won’t find a new rim brake high end frame any more. The benefits of braking later and harder for bends (and also not trashing expensive carbon rims) seem to outweigh the weight and hassle disadvantages.

for the record.. hookless rims have been around for several decades.
i have some very vintage "27x1 1/4" Arayas here that i see, and i use, frequently... not one whisper of a hook on the rims.
the current pair i'm relacing have been using basic IRC gumwalls with wire beads... i pump them up to 80lbs. frequently.
another 27" pair here has Bell Streetsters on them.. also trouble free.

just a guess here... i think hookless rims got a bad reputation back in the old school schwinn days. That reputation is still floating around.. Schwinn insisted on PROPRIETARY designs and sizes for their stuff, in an attempt to force folks to only buy their products... that size change to rims caused the more standard sized tires to blow off the rims...
and now we have companies that sell tires with low grade bead wires that rust and break, making even hooked rims "look bad"...
"Folding" tires can also suffer bead failures, caused by too may bead strands failing from OVER-folding the tires into nice tight little spares bundles....

They got a bad rep when this happened

https://road.cc/content/news/cpa-not...k-crash-306947

racing across a desert, extreme pavement temps, the wrong tire width, a tire that's known to mount TIGHT, a foam insert making the install even harder, and mechanics swapping tires in as little time as possible... but the rim design is blamed.
:foo:

If the pro cyclists union is '100 percent against hookless rims' then I am inclined to believe they have valid reasons.
Also, the foam insert is there for a reason. All the pro tour teams adopted these foam strips en masse, most probably because they know there is a tendency for the tires to come off the hookless rim in case of blow-outs. As a regular joe, you are most likely not going to fuss with foam strips. So you are taking even more risks than the pro riders with these hookless rims.

Sorry, but the extensive history of hookless and your personal use and success with them, will have no effect on my personal decision to avoid them.

With people having different body weights, tire choice, riding style and even ambient temperature, I’ll be sticking with my over half century experience with booked rims.

Barry