It seems SO cheap and mechanically easy, would you rather upgrade the cantilever or replace it with V brakes?

It depends on the brakes and levers I have and what kind of bike it is. In the end I am probably going to get a set of Kool Stop Pads and Shoes and Jagwire compressionless housing with their Pro or Elite Polished cables which will make a huge difference but if I am converting the bike maybe from drops to flats I might consider getting some linear pull brakes and if I am feeling spendy they will probably be Paul Motolites and if not the same as above on some Shimano V-Brake probably Deore level.

A cantilever brake is going to be short pull and Shimano's V-Brake is going to be long pull as are the linear pull brakes from other manufacturers (unless looking at a mini linear pull break which can be short pull)

Pads, shoes, cables and housing make the biggest difference in braking and certainly setting things up right is important. Some people do complain about set up on cantilever brakes vs. linear pull but that is up to that individual mechanic. I do tend to agree but my TRP Revox brakes were pretty easy to set up.

FWIW, THESE flat bar levers have adjustable cable attachment to allow compatibility with *both* short-pull and long-pull brakes. (I have two sets of these and can verify this.)

i'd put new Koolstop orange pads on the cantis, and not waste time/money on v-brake conversion...
set up correctly, cantis work better than v-brakes.

Agreed on Kool Stop pads, but please expand on why you state definitively that ‘cantis work better than v brakes’. Have had multiple canti brake bikes and none of them braked to my satisfaction when compared to caliper brakes. Wife owned a V brake bikes years ago and it stopped on a dime. Am considering changing out a drop bar bike with cantis to v brakes (yes, have a set of the rare long pull Tektro drop bar levers) and am hoping for superior and immediate braking power.

a few million CX racers can't all be wrong.
you see either cantis or disc brakes at CX races.... except for that cluster of newbies at the back of the race, on old MTBs they thought were "Fast".

v-brakes love to drag/change centering when subjected to adverse conditions... most v-brakes on most bikes are low grade ones that flex a lot... the noodles create drag on the cables, especially after some wet use... owners love to fiddle with the centering screws frequently, too. it rarely works out for them.
once set up correctly, and fitted with fresh, modern pads, the cantis are amazingly stable and strong...

Caliper brakes are a completely different genre.
single pivot sidepulls are history on road bikes, for good reason.

So i have cheapo cheapo cantis atm so was going to replace them with shimano calipers and levers and get all new cables giver her a full brake job idk im a project kinda guy so was seeing if its worth it I appreciate the info

I would probably convert any bike that is a good candidate from center-pull cantis to linear pull.

What bike wouldn't be a good candidate? One that does not have a built-in rear-facing cable stop. My c. '93 Univega hybrid routes the rear brake cable through a narrow curved tube intended to fit thin cable sheathing, not standard housing, and serves as a cable hanger; I see lots of vintage Treks and some other brands with a similar arrangement. For that, one solution is a clamp-on cable stop but I tried that and didn't care for it because my inner thighs rubbed against it. So I use Tektro Oryx cantilevers:



These use linear-pull-style pads with threaded posts and are therefore much easier to adjust than the smooth posts. And, I found that levers matter. I was using Tektro levers that convert from short pull to long pull, but in short-pull mode they required lots of effort and braking power seemed weak. (For the record, though Tektro stuff is not in the elite category, I've been pleased with the quality and performance of all their products except these levers, and they do work well in long-pull mode.) I swapped in a pair of Shimano short-pull levers from the parts bin and they are much preferable, with light action and strong braking power.

Hmmm... this has not been my experience. My road bike has old XTR V-brakes which have not needed balancing since I got the bike in 2001. But my mountain bike, about the same age, has low-end V-brakes that have performed almost equally well. I will admit that my folding commuter bike, which has "other" direct-pull brakes, has occasionally needed tweaking since it gets a lot of foul-weather use.

I was under the impression that before discs bcame ubiquitous cross racers used canti’s because they had superior resistance to mud clogging in comparison to caliper brakes.

My gravel bike and one of my touring bikes use Paul MiniMoto’s, which have been described as V brakes that are designed to work with short pull levers. Have not found them to be particularly fiddly, even when putting the bike back together after travel. Very happy with the stopping power and while that’s certainly an option for this next build, was intrigued by your statement, as my experience with several canti equipped bikes was less than satisfactory, even after a great deal of reading, research and comversation with other canti users. As a side note have also not been particularly pleased with centerpull brakes like Mafacs, even when equipped with modern pads.

As with other cycling-related subjects, the terminology can be confusing. Linear-pull calipers are cantilevers but side pull instead of center pull. "V-brake," apparently a Shimano term, has never made sense to me since center-pull calipers look more like a V and linear pull, more closely resemble an H. From the perspective of a literal-minded English major at least.

Thanks for the question as I've been considering the same question myself. I think V-brakes are accepted as the more modern design, As stated above, however, cantilevers are preferred for mud. Either would likely work just fine for your application. As stated, the actual cables and pads (especially the pads) make a bigger difference than how the force is transferred to the pads.

Do you want to swap the minor annoyance of straddle cables for the minor annoyance of noodles?

Certain very wide stubby tires (my snow tires) require fiddling to get the cantilever cables around them. V-brakes provide a nice "box" shape for the wheel to run in.

Cantilever is built into the bike - you need that center pull. Bikes designed for v-brake can't convert the other way. The front cable run on cantilever brakes is beautiful and very short.

Intuitively, there is something beautiful about the absolute symmetry of cantilevers.

Both types can work fantastically or not at all, depending on quality and setup. Linear pull brakes are generally simpler to set up.

Which one to pick is highly dependent on the bike.

Vintage touring bike? Cantis are likely the only thing that will fit.

Using a rim that is noticeably wider or narrower than the bike was designed for? Smooth Post Cantis will handle it better.

Want the best possible brake feel? The best brake levers are usually short pull.

Want more modulation? Cantis.

Mud clearance? Cantis.

Fender clearance? Depends on the bike, Cantis and V-Brakes are both capable of being in the way on a few bikes, and swapping to the other type can be a solution.

Want the easiest brake to set up? V-Brake.

Want to cheap out on your brake and still have it work well? V-Brake.

Want a brake that doesn't stick out and hit your heel while pedaling? V-Brake.

Having issues with squealing or shudder due to a headset mounted cable hanger? V-Brake will fix the problem.

Want the most stopping power? V-Brake, though high end Cantis can be comparable if set up well.

You can add accessory cable hangers to V-brake bikes in order to use cantilevers, just as you can convert old sidepull caliper bikes to centerpull. Some small frames don't have room at the back to clear the hanger and straddle cable - you could add a braze on cable guide, but direct pull makes more sense on those for heel clearance anyway.

i was under the impression that they used cantis because they were compatible with the road levers/shifters generally used by CX bikes? Then I thought that there existed a category of LP (AKA V) brakes that were compatible with road levers - "compact" LP/V?

Shorty V-brakes are kinda scarce, and the stirrup-to-clamp screw cable is too close to the larger CX tires, creating a nasty drag-causing buildup of trail debris, or even locking up the tire.

a well designed Canti is stiffer, by a margin, than a v-brake, making for excellent modulation characteristics, and improved power.
most people end up with the post pads set too deep in the holders, and that messes with all the other geometry involved.
the length of the stirrup cable plays into it too.
i learned to pre-bend the cables to match the yoke curve, and their angle to the brake arms.. this removes "mush" from the setups, and maintains centering.
a 90* at the yoke, when closed, gives best power.. some like to open that up to 110* or so in back, to reduce unintended rear lockup.

a v-brake's cable housing length, at the noodle, can radically alter centering... tuning that housing length is a matter of about 1/4" to reduce binding/rub, or be too short.
some v-brake housing routings allow the cable housing to shift around, varying the amount of binding that happens, and the centering changes with those shiftings.
step-thru frames' rear v-brakes are the worst in that regard, as are some arched/curved frame tube bikes.

oh, and brake power is more about the pads used, than any style of arms/calipers used, IMO.
i liken the "different brakes are better!" thing to someone rebuilding an old worn out v-8, then proclaiming that the .020" overbore made a huge difference in power...

CX used cantis because of compatibility with road levers, not because of any advantage over linear pull brakes.

ive heard the opposite everywhere. Your the 1st to say other wise actually multiple ****** posts have said cantilevers will never match v brakes.

suit yourself... just remember what i said about the pads being more important... and if your bike is drop bar, just finding the correct levers for v-brakes will be nearly impossible.
i hear tektro made some, once...

the flat bar levers come in two pull ratios, and you can determine their pull ratio by measuring the distance from the pivot screw to the cable pivot... under 27mm or so is Short Pull, for canti, sidepull, road disc etc... long pull is 32mm up to about 37mm... your new v-brakes will need the long pull levers.
if the levers on your bike now were correct for the cantis, then they won't work well on long V-brakes, ever.

i was just on the site you referenced... two different people just told someone that SRAM and Shimano shifters all have the same pull ratio, so "buy whatever ones the shop has in stock"..... the guy with the question actually believed them.....
good luck.

I have seen many poorly adjusted cantilever brakes, which probably explains why people think direct pull is "better". It's basically fairly hard to set up a V brake wrong - align the blocks with the rim, remove excess slack from the cable and you're done, more or less. Cantilevers need several parts set properly to work together, and the introduction of low profile arms didn't help in that respect. Traditional style arms, as used up to the 1980s like Mafac and Weinmann, weren't difficult - there was a fairly horizontal arm for the straddle wire attachment and a fairly vertical arm near the rim for brake block attachment, so hook it up and go.

Then came the low profile cantilevers - on these the lever arm is not horizontal and the brake block attachment is not near the rim, you need to set the extension of the blocks and the angle of the straddle wire to work together. It's not difficult, as long as the brazed-on bosses are in about the right place for the rim width, you just want to extend the brake blocks near the maximum and set the straddle so that, at the point the blocks hit the rim, the cable end is normal to each lever arm. You can tune it a bit either way (more powerful but softer feel or dragging, or crisper but less powerful) but that's the 1:1 "lever pressure to stopping force" arrangement.

The incorrectly set cantilevers usually have too much straddle height and not enough block extension, so the lever feels good but the blocks don't clamp the rim hard. Shimano tried to make it safer and more idiot-proof by using their single-sided link wire arrangement, complete with mark to show what the straddle angle should be, but that required the correct link length for a particular arrangement of braze-on bosses and rim width, and gave little scope for tuning.

Nah im a heavy equipment and RV mechanic i have no problem setting up bicycle things with the help of instructions its more of a matter of flat out technology. And what everyone is saying about levers and stuff is just silly. Buy everything in a kit. From a mechanics perspective it will need a complete brake system. So that was just a given to me. My wife's bike has ****** cheap v brakes on another 30 year old mtb and its WORLDS of a difference. I do understand she may have newer pads then mine seems like someone actually rode hers and my pads might be hard and prob are considering what they are doing to the wheel. But the calipers are just as much as the fancy pads and I gotta do a whole re cable any way sooo 🤷‍♂️

Your def right about the pads. Its a 30+ year old rigid MTB. My wife has cheapo v brakes on hers aswell and man does it stop way better. But looks like someone actually rode hers vs mine sat in a garage. So I bet her pads have been replaced. Mine are def 30 years old and hard as a rock. But im a mechanic by trade. From cars to RVs to equipment. Bikes are easy haha. But yeah the cantis are DEFINITELY frustrating. But yeah with everything being so old I needed and wanted to do a re-cable anyway i also wanted to get shorty levers so I dont hit my knuckles anymore 1 or 2 fingering brakes in the woods so i was like at that point 🤷‍♂️

we used to custom cut the brake and clutch levers on our dirt bikes... now they come as two finger ones.
tektros are ok v-brakes... promax not so much... deore. xt and xtr are always better or best v-brakes... there are definite differences on materials and form that lend or harm rigidity... i've seen some nameless v-brakes that were stout as all creation, too... bulky, but well formed.
and do verify the pull ratio of your levers... a ratio mismatch causes nearly useless brakes.
the old school XTR "linkage" v-brakes tend to experience slop from pin and linkage wear... they sure look cool, tho...

i was not talking lever length, but how much cable the lever moves.
lever's pivot screw to cable pivot point, center to center... 25ish mm is short/canti/sidepull/road disc, 32ish mm is long pull/v-brake/mtb disc.

i leave the accordion boots off of the cables.. they tend to hold water/debris IN the Cable housing and noodles, instead of protecting anything. and getting the noodle to not press on the stirrup and arm takes getting the housing length Just Right, or the pressure causes bad/variable centering.
i use only Stainless steel Cables, and Jagwire lined housings here, and use an awl to clean up the lining before slipping on the end caps.

You guys are wild and getting way too into it. Im not far from NYC and bike parts are everywhere i was gunna grab a set of take offs.. all matching calipers and levers off the same bike. For $10 more then kool stops And since I have to do cables anyway and the calipers need to be taken down, pads replaced and cleaned up figured why not right? Or is that just a dumb train of thought
Idk the specifics but they were a set of shimanos which matches all my shifters and stuff and mine are like box store no names in my head it was like taking off your base model cars **** brakes and buying everything to bolt on the big brakes. Like a wrx bolting on the STI brakes