rufvelo

Ever wonder Campy and Shimano don't offer stems and handlebars? Or do they?

They make every component, but looks like in a group you still need to source these from Cinelli, Deda etc. I've never understood it given they have the skills to make the best quality of everything else. It's not like getting into the tire business.

On the other hand, Cinelli and Ritchey also offer bikes...

FarHorizon

I think the reason may have been "why fight when you don't have to?" Since Cinelli, Deda, ITM, etc. already made bars & stems, but not other components, it was easier to take the market with the least competition. After all, Simplex and others didn't make the quality of derailleur that Campy did back then (I'm sure someone will disagree with this statement, but the market seems to confirm my analysis).

SSRI

Shimano did made stems
check this out
https://cgi.ebay.com/Shimano-600-quil...QQcmdZViewItem

I was looking in to this when I was putting together an old vitus with ultegra parts

bsyptak

Realistically, the only superior things that Shimano/Campy make are derailleurs & shifters, and that's mostly because nobody else makes them-or went out of business. Everything else can and has been produced and sold cheaper and often is better performing:

small sample:
FSA & TruVativ: cranks
Tektro: brakes (though one should replace the pads before using with Kool Stops, they suck!)
SRAM: cassettes & chains and mtb ders & shifters

stems are so generic that it would be difficult for Shimano to charge $50 for what one can buy for $15. Same with bars; they're just bent tubing (exceptions noted for CF)

It's pretty analagous to car parts. all of the things you hang off of a car are made by other companies, and are often better than original equipment at a better price.

My .02, and looking forward to see what SRAM comes out with for road bike components.

rufvelo

'...one can buy for $15' - hey I've searched for stems, bars recently and they're all $50-$100 Why can't I buy a stem and handlebar for $30 each - all I wanted was a stem that was horizontal (73deg, 140mm) and handle bar with a deep drop and perfectly rounded (like the Ritchey WCS classic)

I am very impressed with Ritchey, FSA and TruVativ though - they decided to make a product better, or because there wasn't any(in the case of early Ritchey) and have really established themselves.

rmfnla

I think it's more a matter of what Business Gurus call "Core Competancies"; companies are best served doing what they do best.

Campy had always had a loose affiliation with 3TTT, Cinelli, Regina etc. while the Japanese wrote the book on corporate cooperation; sometimes rival companies like Sony & Toshiba will hold large amounts of stock in each other.

I guess the simple answer is they choose not to...

gnz

I dont know about Campy but Shimano's product line seems to be all about precision instruments with certain amount of complexity and that involve motion, I guess stems and handlebars go somewhat out of their specialty.

cs1

You aren't looking hard enough. Try typing in stem, bar or handlebar on ebay. You will spend an hour sorting through all the offerings. Or you could type in Kalloy or Uno, the same thing. They acutall make stems and seatposts for a lot of manufacturers.

Good luck

Tim

SeattleTom

I used to have a gen-you-ine Campy seat post bolt -- and did it make me fast!

gnz

Must have been a really good quality bolt. I wonder how fast are the shimano snowboards sold in japan

Spudmeister

Shimano used to offer stems that were manufactured by Nitto (I think).

rmfnla

Yeah, Nitto does that. I have a sweet cro-mo Ritchy road stem made by Nitto, complete w/ ovalized tube bore; stiff & light.

robo

Shimano and Campy specialize in the moving parts on a bike (with the exception of suspension). Drivetrain, shifters, brakes, hubs, headsets, BBs, pedals. They had competitors (Suntour, Huret, etc) but Shimano crushed them all in the '80s and almost killed Campy too. Shimano used to make seatposts too, although if they still do, i certainly haven't seen one for a while.

I think Campy dabbled in rims for a while, too.


It's partly about core competencies, whether actual or percieved, as someone said above. Other companies have traditionally been the providers of saddles, rims, spokes, tires, bars, and stems, as well as the frames themselves. I trust Shimano drivetrain and brake components: i expect them to be good. If Shimano sold a saddle, i probably wouldn't buy it. I'd rather have a Selle Italia or a Brooks or some other model from a company i trust as a saddle manufacturer. If a bike was specced with a Shimano saddle, i'd also be a bit bemused. That, times many thousands of customers, is partly why Shimano doesn't produce saddles, and bike manufacturers don't spec them.

The other, bigger, part of it is that Shimano has had, starting in the late '80s and continuing until recently, a virtual monopoly on drivetrain parts, which means that they could make a very fat profit on them. It costs a lot more to develop a drivetrain system than it does to develop a stem, or a seatpost, or even a hub, so it's easier for a smaller company to produce those simpler products. Shimano already had a great drivetrain system, and product managers were scared to spec anything else (sometimes with good reason, after what happened with Suntour in their dying years), and Shimano had all the economies of scale on their side (large volumes mean cheaper costs per part). Since drivetrain parts are interdependent, if you're trying to break into the drivetrain market you either have to make a huge investment (risk) and bring an entire new drivetrain system to market, or you have to work really hard to ensure that your product is 100% compatible with Shimano parts, and Shimano is certainly not going to help you with that! After that, you have to somehow convince nervous product managers that your part can really be trusted, and they aren't going to get fired for speccing a non-standard part that has problems. As they used to say about IBM, 'nobody ever got fired for speccing Shimano'. All that makes it very hard for a newcomer to gain a foothold in the drivetrain market, and it also means that Shimano can probably rake in much higher margins on its drivetrain parts than it could on stems, seatposts, handlebars, saddles, etc.

So in a way, Shimano doesn't produce stems and handlebars because it can't be bothered to. It would have to fight with all the established stem and handlebar makers over slim profit margins, instead of sitting back and raking in the profit on it's drivetrain parts.

Campy seems to have resigned itself to being a boutique brand, usually found on cost-is-no-object bikes.
SRAM has done a pretty admirable job of clawing it's way into the drivetrain market, although they are a pretty big corporation themselves, and their marketshare is still tiny, a sign of the momentum and mindshare that Shimano has.

It's a bit like Microsoft with Windows and Office. Because they have a virtual monopoly in a market where the product is complex and has many interdependencies (investment in the Windows API in Microsoft's case) and where they have a lot of momentum and mindshare (many IT directors will not consider deploying non-Windows machines, as bike product managers might not consider speccing non-Shimano drivetrains), it becomes very difficult for other companies to break into the market, whether or not the big vendor really has the best product. Right now, Apple is sort of like Campy: expensive, really nice, favored by afficionados but hanging onto a tiny shred of marketshare, and SRAM is perhaps like Linux: technically excellent, but a bit rough in appearance and without the slickness of the other players, favored by practical users, but again with a small overall marketshare. But if you just walk into a store and buy 'a computer', it's going to be running MS Windows.

Obviously, analogies go only so far, but i think there are some striking parallels.

rufvelo

A good analysis and well explained too.

But I think I have, stored somewhere, a not too old and still unused Campy seatpost (probably 1994). I've also bought Shimano shoes! Those marketing guys!

robo

Yeah, i forgot that Shimano makes shoes.. However, when you think about it, shoes are one of the most massively marked up products you can buy (they cost $3 per pair to make, and sell for over $100), so it kind of fits.. no pun intended

Cycling Giraffe

Shimano makes a really nice seatpost too -- the nearly decade-old Dura Ace post, which is sweet. They also just came out with (for the first time in a while) an Ultegra-level sea post. Do they still make only threaded headsets? I remember back in the mid-90s, when Shimano refused to make an AheadSet headset as that design was taking off, and it seems that they never did/never will.

DinoShepherd

re: cheap bars/stem.

Check Supergo. Great quality. Dirt cheap.

-Z

Mr_Super_Socks

I have the DA version of this stem on my road bike. it's the prettiest stem I have ever seen - Peter White likes 'em too.
https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/stems.asp

robo

Wow.. that DuraAce stem is... ravishing...

I should stop looking at it.. i'm scaring myself!

However, it's interesting to note that it dates from 1983, when Shimano was still competing hard with Suntour, Campy, Huret, and maybe some others. So they weren't in quite the same position that they are in now.

rmfnla

Very true. Shimano also has a huge share of the fishing equipment market; the technological similarities between reels and bike goodies are fairly obvious.

I used to be a die-hard Campy-or-nothing type, kind of a pre-carbon fiber OCP. It might be just that I've mellowed with age, but my two most recent builds are all Shimano and I love them.
(I know, Tulio; I'm sorry).

Brian

Shimano still makes Dura Ace and XTR seat posts. I'm going to hazard a guess that they don't bother with stems and bars because A) They don't work in carbon fibre or titanium in large quantities, and B) Shimano would be unable to promote their dubious continuous improvement in such pedestrian items. Each year, the lemmings wait impatiently for the latest and greatest, new and improved drivetrain components from Shimano. It would be too hard for them to sucker the cycling public each year with a new stem or post. Oh, I also think that other than shoes and front derailleurs, Shimano can't be bothered with different sizes. They're not about choice. For that you need to look at SRAM.

dafydd

you should take note that the stems were actually made by nitto. still comes back they're doing what they do best, and leaving others to do their thing. just happens that once in a while they contact someone to make something they can put their name on. a similar example is how suntour's components were made by dia-compe, sugino, sansin and other but all bore the suntour name for simplicity and marketing's sake.

Bianchiriderlon

I have a Shimano bait casting rod and reel. It is uncanny how similar in appearance they are to the Shimano drivetrain parts on my bent. They both share similar colours, finishes and levels of intricacy.

rufvelo

I'm a bit irritated with SRAM's mystery components - brifters etc. Either you have a product and show it now, else we'll go ahead and get Shimano or Campy.

Brian

Marketing. Patents. They have a few issues to deal with. They've been in the MTB game for a while, but now want to take on Shimano in road components. While the workings of the Shimano brake/shifter combo may be very complex, the concept is simple. They have to make a genuine improvement to that in order to not infringe on patents. It also has to be a genuine improvement in order to market it to the cycling public. That said, can you blame them for not giving a sneak peek of what they have in the works?