grolby

I'm considering switching one of the old ten-speeds I have lying in the shed at my parent's house to a three-speed S-A AW set-up this winter. It should be cheap, relatively simple and give me a nice winter project. The number-one concern before starting this project, however, is whether the hub will fit! So!

1. What is the O.L.D. spacing on the Sturmey-Archer AW. The hub I am using is actually a Sears Three-Speed (Hub Model 503.21), but to the best of my knowledge, this hub is an exact copy of the S-A AW, with some minor cosmetic differences on the hub shell. The hub is also stamped with a 66. It is currently installed on my rapidly-disintegrating Sears Austrian 3-speed (the beater I am looking to replace).

2. If the spacing on the hub isn't 120mm (the spacing on my old ten-speed frames), how easy will it be to make it fit? I am willing to entertain the notion of cold-setting, but would prefer to avoid it if possible. An axle replacement is also something I would consider, but again would prefer to avoid. However, if either of these are what stands in my way, I'll definitely do it - I'm excited to try this out.

All right, I'm sure that you tech gurus can help me out, so let's hear it!

Sheldon Brown

Most Sturmey-Archer hub installations are around 114 mm spacing.

The axles generally came in either short (5 3/4") or long (6 1/4") sizes. The longer size will generally work on a 120 mm frame, just add enough spacer washers to fill up the space.

Beyond 120, with typical 6 mm thick dropouts, it gets pretty dodgy.

If you don't already have them, you should pick up a pair of the HMW494 axle washers designed to fit the wider dropout slots.

See: https://sheldonbrown.com/harris/sturmey.html#19

Sheldon "Epicyclic" Brown

grolby

Thanks Sheldon! This looks like it's going to be a wee bit more complicated than I thought (I think I have a short axle, though it's hard to measure with the wheel installed), but I suppose that taking the thing apart will give me the opportunity to overhaul the hub and get some familiarity with how it all goes together. If I'm going to be putting a new axle in there, I might as well make sure all the bearings and such things are running smoothly. I'm always up for a challenge, and this seems like a good one to pass the winter months. I look forward to making this work!

grolby

Okay, I've now removed the hub from the bicycle, and gotten a closer look at it. I haven't taken it apart yet, but I've figured out some interesting things. First, the serrated axle washers are flat - no tabs! The tabs are on separate axle washers. Interestingly enough, they are not any wider than the axle flats. When I slip them back into the dropouts, there is a little bit of wiggle room. Replacing the axle washer on the right side with a new one will be no problem, but on the LEFT side (here's where things get a little weird), it's stuck to the cone locknut, which is in turn attached to a couple of different washers below it. I'm having hard time figuring out whether they've managed to become corrosion-welded or something like that. In any case, they are REALLY attached pretty firmly to each other. The entire arrangement also looks very slightly different from the same part of S-A AW hubs that I've been looking at pictures of. It would seem that the Sears 503.21 is almost identical to the AW. Some sleuthing has revealed that the innards are indeed the same, but that the left-hand bearing race uses different threading. Their also appears to be some differences in the washers used, or something... I would post pictures, but my camera is dead .

Anyway, the hub has a "66" stamped on it, which I'm assuming to be the year of manufacture. Could the washers and nuts on the side of the hub have corroded themselves together in 39 years? They look like separate pieces that are just stuck together. Do I need to do anything different, with these new discoveries in mind, or should I just replace all of the axle washers, and things will work fine?

EDIT: Another question - when it comes to build a wheel, I understand that spokes might be a problem. Apparently modern spokes have wider flanges? Will it be possible to find matching spokes for this hub, or to somehow make new ones work with it? I won't be at this point for a while yet, but it would be nice to know now if this is going to be a problem.

genericbikedude

FWIW: here's my advice:

--get a good ruler, and measure the axle. you can get an eyeball estimate by setting it on top of the flanges and imagining a straight line down. if too short, you'll have to cold set, or just get an aw from a good used bike shop (bikeville.com, perhaps)

--before taking the thing apart, get a good manual, such as sutherlands. these things are stupidly complicated. watch out for the teeny weeny springs that hold the pawls

--when you take apart, look for wear on the clutch and the planet cogs

--every time I've built up a sa-aw hub (twice, both with skinny 700c rims), I've used double butted dt spokes with no issue. both wheels still going strong.

--if sears is a cheap knock-off, rather than a decent knock-off, consider finding an aw. they aren't that expensive, and 3-speed is the sheezy. quite worth it.

--if the hub is old and crappy, consider soaking it in solvent for a while before taking apart. make sure its good and dry, and refill with oil. have you been oiling this hub over its extended life? if no, see advice point number 3

hope this helps

genericbikedude

also, and not to take business away from sheldon, who I encourage everyone to support because of his incredibly useful and fun-to-read website--Amherst has got to have a bike co-op somewhere. if they have a co-op, you are guaranteed to find junk hubs or wheels that you can raid for parts

lisitsa

I have done the same exact thing yesterday, as I found an old 3-speed hub wheel, and replaced the wheel onto my old 10-speed steel beater. The spacing was significantly different, and I just screwed in the screw and probably narrowed the rear stays by a good centimetre or two. So far it seems to hold well (i didn't cold set). The frame that I found the wheel on also was wider than the wheel so I don't know what happened there.

When I shorten the chain, I'll be able to remove the rear derailleur (YAY) and the front and rear gear changers and cables (THANK GOD).

PS - I don't care how much efficiency I lose or whether it is insanely dangerous to bend the rear chainstays or whatever they're called, you don't know how much I've been waiting for a singlespeed. I absolutely love the look of singlespeeds.

grolby

Thanks genericbikedude, that's some good practical advice. I'll see if I can't scrounge up some old AWs around here, and use the nicest bits from each of them. You're right, it should be too hard to find a couple around here.

Anyway, I've only had this hub for about two months, but I wasn't oiling it. It wasn't perfect anyway, which is why I need to take it apart - there's a lot of slop in the drive (the pedals turn pretty far before engaging), and it's a bit prone to slipping if the adjustment isn't perfect. That can be BAD if you're standing on the pedals!

I'm definitely excited about the project, and now winter can't come soon enough!

Sheldon Brown

I don't agree...the Sturmey-Archer AW at least is extremely simple. The older Shimano ones are stupidly complicated though, and not worth fixing.

Instructions are on the Web at: https://www.toehead.plus.com/stmain.htm

I'll soon be adding those instructions directly to my site, but I'm in the middle of re-formatting them and adding more images.

It's not clear to me that it actually needs to be taken apart, they rarely do...most often a bit of oil and a bit of riding will fix 'em up.

However, if you do decide to overhaul the hub, it MUST be in a built up wheel, don't cut the spokes and then expect to be able to get the hub apart.


The Austrian hubs on the Steyr/Sears bikes were actually quite good, probably better than later British production. Sturmey-Archer quality declined in a long slide from the late '50s until the end of the millennium, and the ones from near the end were bad news.

Surprisingly enough, the new Taiwanese ones seem to be quite nice.

Sheldon "https://sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer" Brown

Sheldon Brown

It is generally considered a Bad Idea to stand up whilst pedaling on a Sturmey-Archer hub.

Sheldon "Ouch!" Brown

Sheldon Brown

It is generally considered a Bad Idea to stand up whilst pedaling on a Sturmey-Archer hub.

Sheldon "Ouch!" Brown

grolby

Well, how about that! Guess I'll keep that in mind!

I have just one more question, if you don't mind. You say that they rarely need taking apart, and this hub is certainly holding up okay after 39 years. The reason that I want to open the hub up is that there is a lot of slop in the drive, or at least, a lot more slop than there is on any freewheel bike I've ever ridden, so I'm concerned that something isn't quite right in there. Is it common on AW hubs for the pedals to need to turn further (twice as far or more) before the drive engages, or is it likely that there's something wrong, here?

If all I have to do is get some new axle washers and a longer axle, or just trade for a hub with a longer axle, I will be very happy! Opening up the hub would be fun, but it would be nice to not take a chance on losing any pawl springs .

Sheldon Brown

Yes, especially in low gear.

All the best,

Sheldon

meatwad

[QUOTE=grolby]Well, how about that! Guess I'll keep that in mind!

<<I have just one more question, if you don't mind. You say that they rarely need taking apart, and this hub is certainly holding up okay after 39 years. The reason that I want to open the hub up is that there is a lot of slop in the drive, or at least, a lot more slop than there is on any freewheel bike I've ever ridden,>>>

These units suck. Old tech. Retro grouch. Yes you have it in hand and as far as that goes Sheldon is giving you sage advice. But the shimano units work so much better and can be had for song.

Do you really want a transmission that when properly set up only work as well as described...

(excessive slop, long duration before gear engagements and if you get out of the saddle they will go in beteen gears and you will crush your balls on the top bar? )

The shimano units non-coaster style after about 1972 work flawlessly and are indestructable. Even the coasters were better than the SA or austrian deravitives.

Im not sure what compels people to think that these units suck . The diffence between using them and the older units is to shift when you want to or to have at least three mechanical deficiencies in mind before doing so.

grolby

meatwad, I'm using the Sturmey-Archer (well... Sears, really) because it's in remarkably good shape, and it's what I have.

Used Sturmey-Archer hubs are ubiquitous around here. I haven't seen a Shimano hub, 'leastaways not one that isn't already attached to a bike. Besides, I just picked up a 6 1/4" axle for nothing, so I've got most of what I need. Sure, I could pick up a Shimano Nexus-8 and build a wheel with one of them - it's a fantastic hub - but I'm a poor college student trying to do this for under 50 bucks. That means salvaging parts from other bikes to the greatest extent possible, and only buying what I absolutely have to (which will probably be a rim, spokes, 20 tooth 3/32" cog and some axle washers/spacers).

In any case, the AW doesn't really have enough gear range, but why let that stand in the way of getting the gears I want? I'll be building the bike up as a six speed using both chainrings on the ten-speed frame. This will actually give me four speeds, as two of the gears are exact duplicates, but the one extra speed will give me a low gear of about 40 inches and bump the gear range from 177% to 237%, which isn't huge, but is into fairly respectable territory. The old derailer will be set in place with the high-gear limit screw and used as a chain tensioner. The beauty of all this is that all of the bits necessary to make this work are already on the bike. It's weird, sure, but I'm a bit of a tinkerer. I like weird.

Out of this, I get a good winter beater bike - basically indestructible, low maintenance, not too expensive - and a good project to work on during the ridiculously long winter vacation from classes. And I get a unique bicycle with zero value to thieves. I'm not sure where the problem lies, honestly.

Sheldon Brown

My experience with the older freewheeling Shimano 3-speed hubs has been that they are anything but "indestructible." They were overcomplicated in design, and had teeny little pawls that frequently bust when ridden by larger riders

(Japanese people tend to be lighter than Americans, on average, and older Japanese bike stuff was often too flimsy for good service for typical Americans. The Japanese bike industry figured this out sometime in the mid-late 1970s, and newer Japanese stuff is great.)

The usual failure mode for these older 3-speeds is that one part will shatter, usually a pawl, then the shards will get caught in the works and everything in the hub will turn into used food.

Sturmey-Archer failure modes rarely involve anything breaking off, more often stuff getting gummed up or corners getting rounded off so things might slip, but they don't tend to massively self-destruct as the older Shimano 3-speed freewheeling hubs did.


That's a bit of an understatement. When you get in to the coaster brake versions, there's no comparison: Shimano rules! Sturmey-Archer coaster brake 3-speeds generally suck.

Sheldon "All Generalizations Are False" Brown

meatwad

<< I'm not sure where the problem lies, honestly>>

Like i said if you have it go for it. I'm just guessing that if you have the ability, time , cash to put a new rim on it you will become irratated that you now have a road bike that is unsafe to get out of the saddle with.

At least I did. The quirk is the equivelent of having a chain break under pressure.


Ive seen a few lightweight three speeds being put together around town so I thought I would mention it.

The shimano units Im talking about are probably 79 on up and not dateing back as far I thought. Neither the newer expensive nexus ones or the ones that Sheldon is speaking of that self destruct I beleive those are the ones with the chain actuator.

If the one on my le tour is one of the exploding varity I'd like to know which ones are the reliable ones.

If you were familar with the quirks of the hub before changing it over thats the important part. From your post it wasn't clear.

Show us pics when get it finished. I love frankenbikes.

grolby

Ah, okay, I see where you're coming from now.

Frankly, it will probably be good to break myself of the habit of standing to pedal - I have a less-than-perfect left knee, and I found to my disappointment that standing to pedal a loaded touring bike over the course of 300 miles in a few days or so makes that knee very unhappy. Of course, it might not have been a problem if my touring bike hadn't come with a stupidly big 44-tooth middle chainring. And if I DO want to really hammer out of the saddle, I'll still have a bike to do that on. I'm building the 3-speed to use on campus, because I really care too much about my nice bike to keep riding it and locking it out there.

I am definitely planning to post pictures of my completed "Project 33" (named for the gear steps). In addition to the 3-speed wheel and front derailer gearing, I'll be swapping the drops for flat bars. I love drops, but they aren't so hot for riding on a campus with so many people walking around. Flats will give better low-speed handling and let me keep my head up a bit more. This should add to the frankenbike appeal of the project. I expect to have a lot of fun with this!

FlatTop

I just went through a nonworking, slightly rusty SA model AW hub. My first time in there, and just to get an idea of what the job was like, so I used an expendable hub as a guinea pig.

If you are avoiding this job, don't. There aren't a lot of parts, and there aren't too many fiddly procedures to the assembly. With the hub in a wheel, and everything oriented upright rather than flat on a table, it pretty much goes together in three assemblies.
Notes:
Later hubs have just the one removeable ball cup.

All that holds the planet gear pins and pawl pins into the planet and ring gear assemblies is a tiny bit of friction and reluctance to change. If you turn them things will fall out and need to be reassembled.

The bearings can be serviced without taking the hub to bits, but as long as you're in there...

As Mr. Brown has suggested, this hub suffered from being gummed up, and wear wasn't a factor in my particular hub.

The tiny, hairlike pawl springs look a bit like they came from faerie clothespins. Handle with care, and you might luck out and get away with just leaving them alone. If you only need to clean, you can reach darn near everything without disturbing them.

I plugged the hub into my James to test it, and happily rode all over town. If I can do it, you can too.

Now I need to dig through my culch pile for a Shimano to disembowl.

grolby

Okay! I finished building my wheel in late December, and put together this bicycle a couple of days before the new year. I haven't actually gotten around to changing the axle yet, as I am currently at my parents' house and don't have a good clean work area for taking the hub apart - I actually got started and realized that it was going to be a problem, so I put it back together. For what it's worth, the inside of the hub wasn't even all that gummy; it appeared to be in remarkably good shape.

For now, the stays are just being squished together by the axle nuts. It makes getting the wheel in and out of the frame while remaining properly aligned a real PITA, so I may actually do something about it at some point. I may wait until my next order from Harris Cyclery, though - they were out of stock on the anti-rotation axle washers, and I'm not too keen on spending eight bucks on shipping for such dinky little parts. The current washers are working well enough.

As for the bike itself, I replaced the drops on a cruddy old Rampar R-Two with a cheap steel flatbar (chopped from 24 to 20 inches), filed out the dropouts and spread the fork to take a 100mm QR front wheel, and then fitted the new rear wheel and cabled it all up. As you can see from the photo of the seat cluster, the arrangement is a little bit unorthodox, but it works great.

Anyway, without further ado, here are the photos!

spider-man

Just curious, but why the rear derailleur? Are you running two cogs or chainrings?

I recently build my first SA three-speed wheel, and it's really quite nice.

grolby

I forgot to explain that! The derailer is because I'm am using two chainrings. It's a six-speed, but two of the extra gears are effectively duplicates, because the jumps between the hub gears and the chainrings (39/52) are the same - 33%.

It really is quite a nice hub! I haven't ridden it very far yet, but I really like the feel of it.

genericbikedude

Cool Bike.