I'll agree that I haven't been able to perceive the difference in ride comfort between a radial and a 3X front wheel, but I haven't evaluated them back to back on the same frame, either. However, I can definitely feel the difference between stiff frames and compliant ones. My Nashbar aluminum frame (with EC70 carbon fork) is so stiff it gives me a headache; there's no comparison between that frame and either my steel or carbon road frames, both are much more comfortable to ride. I had a K2 cyclocross frameset that was also a real bruiser; my Salsa frame in comparison gives a much smoother ride (though still harsher than my non-AL road frames).

Personally, I think the radial laced wheels look pretty cool and I have had no problems with mine, though for strength and durability, you can't beat a traditional 3X wheel.

As to cutting down existing spokes, I think that's a false economy. The OP is way better off getting new spokes and saving his pennies elsewhere.

Something tells me the OP in this thread came to some form of a solution years ago.:D

Dura Ace, Ultegra, and 105 hubs are radial lacing compatible.
http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product..._200276_200431
"The redesigned 105 front hub is radial lace compatible, so now you can build rigid and light front wheels with Shimano's blessing."
http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product..._200276_200431
"Radial lacing compatible,"
http://www.benscycle.net/index.php?m...roducts_id=233
"Radial lacing compatible "

You're discussing something with someone who posted in 2005.

Agree. My LBS cuts all spokes to length and rolls threads on so they don't need such a big inventory of varying spoke lengths. He charges 50 cents per replacement spoke, which includes measuring the old one, cutting the new one to length, and rolling the threads. So I'd think the charge to just roll threads on your old pre-cut spokes would be pretty small.

But I agree with the previous posters on the risks associated with radial spoking and the reuse of spokes in a new pattern.

Gee, ya think?? :roflmao2:

What do you think that contraption is? Just a better way to sell bikes.
Not all bike shops without one of those 'fit' systems' is as indifferent or incompetent as you make them out to be.
And no bike shop on earth can possibly carry every bike brand or type. Do you go into a Ford dealer and ask them for a Ferrari? No, they're gonna try and sell you the GT.

And BTW, this thread isn't even about fit systems or bike shops.

I know, but the topic is still relevant.

I figured since the has been raised from the dead, and contains information no longer true, I'd provide some updated information.

It is still interesting to know how to cut or roll your own spokes (even though it sounds illegal).

It is still worth noting that radial lacing has tiny advantages and huge disadvantages. Unless you are aiming to break a world record, I don't see how it can be worthwhile. Of course, some people will risk their bikes to look stylish.

I realize that it's not as dangerous as it used to be, but that's hardly an argument in favor of the practice!

I've occasionally had the desire to cut and roll my own spokes (exotic lacings like crows-foot and a 36 hole rim onto a 40 hole hub), but never enough to buy the Hozan tool. One of my LBS's has a Phil tool and charges 25c to cut a spoke, 75c if they supply the (stainless 14 gauge) spoke. At that price, and at the rate I build exotic wheels, it will be spring 2050 when it would have been cost effective.

Before I get to the gist of things - better lay down my qualifications first so a couple posters here don't go "off" on me on the assumption that I don't know what I'm talking about...

1. 2000+ Bicycles Wheels Built Since 1984
2. Includes many rebuilds and re-use of hubs, rims and SPOKES.
3. Includes steel rims, alloy rims, titanium spokes, entry level all the way up to $1500.00 sets of wheels.
4. At any time I am maintaining, using and repairing up to 4 Phil Wood Spoke machines from serial number 12 all the way up to 1204.


Subject 1: Reusing Spokes

If you did the following:

- Personally salvaged the spokes yourself.
- Determined that the old wheel was properly tensioned.
- Determined that the old wheel didn't suffer from chronic spoke breakage.
- There is no visible damage such as occurs from a chain incident.

Resuse of spokes is a viable option if you really need to save money. If they are DT, Wheelsmith, Alpina, Echelon, Hoshi - you'll have a better success rate.

I as a matter of habit and trust do not throw away DT spokes from wheels that I salvage. I reuse DT all the time - so do a lot of my customers. Other wheelbuilders I know will save used Wheelsmith and Phil spokes.



Subject 2: Re-rolling Threads

Nothing wrong with re-rolling threads. Factory producers of spokes use rolling dies - Phil Wood Spoke Machine and Morizumi Spoke Machine do the same. I've used Phil Wood Spoke machines to re-roll threads over existing threads without issues probably 10,000+ times.

99.9% of your spoke breakage issues folks are going to be at the head.



Subject 3: Radial Lacing and Hub Flange

As some have mentioned - radial laced wheels can be harsh wheels ride-wise. But they are harsher on the hub flanges and holes.

- Do your tensioning in small increments.
- Keep the average kgf in the 103-110 range.
- If with a true wheel you get 1 or more spokes that are already past 110 kgf before the others have even reached 100 kgf - consider stopping at an average of 100-103 kgf.

It IS very easy to rip a hole. All it takes is one hole - wheel is done with. I've seen it happen - you end up tossing an otherwise perfectly fine hub.

Warranty-wise the manufacturers treat you like a nobody - I don't blame em.


Good Luck!

:thumb:

I once had a set of fast race wheels that I really liked- they were american classic hubs, tubular matrix iso aero rims with bladed spokes laced radially except crossed on the rear drive side. 1994 US amature road championships were held in a downtown Seattle circiut that featured some very steep decents and I was riding the radially laced wheels. I had to brake hard on a downhill to make a sharp turn at the bottom of the hill. There was a lot of force being generated by braking and I had a slight shudder of my front brake then BAM, a section of the front hub flange broke loose, wheel went massivly out of true and several spokes were slapping the front fork. I somehow managed to keep the bike upright and slow down enough to make the corner without taking out 1/2 the pack and then quickly got a neutral wheel change and chased back onto the main pack on a long climb.
As I later analyzed the wheel failure, I concluded that the spoke tension of radially lacing is enourmously high during hard rim braking, probably much higher tension than can be generated at the rear wheel while sprinting hard. In order for braking forces to be transmitted from the rim via the spokes and to the hub and the forks, the rim must rotate to lag slightly behind in relation to the hub. This rotation is accomplished by stretching of the radial spokes. The tension forces involved in producing windup are much higher than any cross lacing pattern where 1/2 of the spokes are already angled so can transmitt braking force without windup.
I got a new hub and re-built the wheel as a 1X patten and have not sufferend any similar failures.

You can reuse spokes as long as they are not kinked.
http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8c.3.html

Your analysis is flawed. When using rim brakes there is nothing trying to twist the rim WRT the hub. Or rather, there are two forces that are cancelling each other out. The hub will act as a seesaw at equilibrium, at one end you have ground friction pushing backwards during braking, at the other end you have the brake pads generating an equally strong force also pointing backwards. Net torque on hub is zero. As far as the wheel is concerned it'll simply see an overall greater load at a slightly different angle WRT the orientation of the bike. Allowing for a very minor simplification one rider braking will look the same to the wheel as a heavier rider coasting.

Yes, on a radially laced wheel under braking, the brake-pads pull back on the top of the wheel with exactly the same amount of force as the ground is pulling back on the bottom of the wheel. The net torque is zero and the net force on the wheel is like you aiming the bike vertically into the ground.