Frame material comparison
#1
Cycle Dallas
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Land of Gar, TX
Posts: 3,777
Bikes: Dulcinea--2017 Kona Rove & a few others
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 197 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
5 Posts
Frame material comparison
Is there a chart out there that represents a general comparison between frame materials?
Primarily, I want to know about weight when it gets into the different alloys. I know that CF is lighter than aluminum which is lighter than steel, etc.
But what about manganese alloy versus Chrome-Moly versus Carbolite? Is one of these lighter than the rest?
Primarily, I want to know about weight when it gets into the different alloys. I know that CF is lighter than aluminum which is lighter than steel, etc.
But what about manganese alloy versus Chrome-Moly versus Carbolite? Is one of these lighter than the rest?
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: England
Posts: 12,948
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
7 Posts
Apart from being a bit of troll subject, material comparisons are pretty meaningless.
For a given volume, Ti is approx 1/3 the weight AND 1/3 the strength of equivelent grade steel*. Al is 1/2 weight and 1/2 the strength of steel. That is why Al frames do not weight half as much as steel frames; You need more material to achieve the requitred strength and only save a very small amount of weight. Even then, a cheap Al frame is heavier than an expensive, handbuilt steel frame.
* Many comparisons between materials use the lowest grade of steel as the a comparison against expensive Ti, not the highest grade of heat-treated steel.
For a given volume, Ti is approx 1/3 the weight AND 1/3 the strength of equivelent grade steel*. Al is 1/2 weight and 1/2 the strength of steel. That is why Al frames do not weight half as much as steel frames; You need more material to achieve the requitred strength and only save a very small amount of weight. Even then, a cheap Al frame is heavier than an expensive, handbuilt steel frame.
* Many comparisons between materials use the lowest grade of steel as the a comparison against expensive Ti, not the highest grade of heat-treated steel.
#3
The Rabbi
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,123
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
As the above poster said, more or less, much more of the weight factor of a bicycle depends on the manipulation of the tubing, skill of the builder, etc. There are sub 3lbs steel road frames out there, and there are 5lbs aluminum road frames out there. Talking the raw weight of a given material seems somewhat pointless I'm afraid. CF isn't actually any lighter than aluminum in most bicycle applications. Look at the weight of a good aluminum seatpost vs. a carbon seatpost. The aluminum is usually lighter. Look at the weight of a carbon Cannondale Synapse vs. a aluminum Synapse with the same components--virtually no weight difference. Cannondale Six13 vs. a R5000--no weight difference. The same is true of other manufacturer's lines as well. When it comes down to it, carbon is usually added for comfort and not necessarily weight savings.
#4
Cycle Dallas
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Land of Gar, TX
Posts: 3,777
Bikes: Dulcinea--2017 Kona Rove & a few others
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 197 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
5 Posts
Originally Posted by MichaelW
Apart from being a bit of troll subject, material comparisons are pretty meaningless.
For a given volume, Ti is approx 1/3 the weight AND 1/3 the strength of equivelent grade steel*. Al is 1/2 weight and 1/2 the strength of steel. That is why Al frames do not weight half as much as steel frames; You need more material to achieve the requitred strength and only save a very small amount of weight. Even then, a cheap Al frame is heavier than an expensive, handbuilt steel frame.
* Many comparisons between materials use the lowest grade of steel as the a comparison against expensive Ti, not the highest grade of heat-treated steel.
For a given volume, Ti is approx 1/3 the weight AND 1/3 the strength of equivelent grade steel*. Al is 1/2 weight and 1/2 the strength of steel. That is why Al frames do not weight half as much as steel frames; You need more material to achieve the requitred strength and only save a very small amount of weight. Even then, a cheap Al frame is heavier than an expensive, handbuilt steel frame.
* Many comparisons between materials use the lowest grade of steel as the a comparison against expensive Ti, not the highest grade of heat-treated steel.
#5
Banned.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 3,061
Bikes: Homebuilt steel
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2193 Post(s)
Liked 425 Times
in
337 Posts
Originally Posted by MichaelW
Apart from being a bit of troll subject, material comparisons are pretty meaningless.
For a given volume, Ti is approx 1/3 the weight AND 1/3 the strength of equivelent grade steel*. Al is 1/2 weight and 1/2 the strength of steel. That is why Al frames do not weight half as much as steel frames; You need more material to achieve the requitred strength and only save a very small amount of weight. Even then, a cheap Al frame is heavier than an expensive, handbuilt steel frame.
* Many comparisons between materials use the lowest grade of steel as the a comparison against expensive Ti, not the highest grade of heat-treated steel.
For a given volume, Ti is approx 1/3 the weight AND 1/3 the strength of equivelent grade steel*. Al is 1/2 weight and 1/2 the strength of steel. That is why Al frames do not weight half as much as steel frames; You need more material to achieve the requitred strength and only save a very small amount of weight. Even then, a cheap Al frame is heavier than an expensive, handbuilt steel frame.
* Many comparisons between materials use the lowest grade of steel as the a comparison against expensive Ti, not the highest grade of heat-treated steel.
The basic rule of thumb is that materials in the same metal family all have the same stiffness (modulus of elasticity); regardless of the alloy type of steel/aluminum, they all have the same metal stiffness (assuming the cross section area is the same).
Another rule of thumb (with in the scope of the bicycle arena anyway) is that materials in the same family have the same density (weight/unit area).
Compared to steel, aluminum is 1/3 as strong/stiff/dense.
Compared to steel, Ti is 1/2 as stiff/dense and roughly the same strength as medium grade steel.
Carbon can not be compared because the fabric lay-out determines the characteristics.
For some good info read the following link.
https://www2.sjsu.edu/orgs/asmtms/artcle/articl.htm
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: England
Posts: 12,948
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
7 Posts
Originally Posted by MMACH 5
How can I attain my goal of being a total weight weanie if there's no real weight savings by dropping the steel frame?
I plead guilty to having an Al bolt on my bike but it is to secure a lamp and in mitigation, I was given the bolt by a friend.
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: St Peters, Missouri
Posts: 30,225
Bikes: Catrike 559 I own some others but they don't get ridden very much.
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1572 Post(s)
Liked 643 Times
in
364 Posts
Originally Posted by MMACH 5
How can I attain my goal of being a total weight weanie if there's no real weight savings by dropping the steel frame?
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Laramie Wyoming
Posts: 2,970
Bikes: Merlin Extralight Topolino Wheels Campy Record
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Nessism
#9
Senior Member
When you get right down to it, good engineering will allow any bicycle frame to transcend its material properites. Steel can be light, titanium can be stiff, aluminum can give a nice ride. Engineering is far more critical to the weight, ride and handling of a bicycle than its material properties. I happen to like steel bicycles, but I will be the first to admit that it's an irrational, more emotional than intellectual belief in its superior qualities and general indestructibility. I believe it, but believing it means coming to terms with the fact that it's not true .
#10
Videre non videri
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Posts: 3,208
Bikes: 1 road bike (simple, light), 1 TT bike (could be more aero, could be lighter), 1 all-weather commuter and winter bike, 1 Monark 828E ergometer indoor bike
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
4 Posts
Originally Posted by grolby
I happen to like steel bicycles, but I will be the first to admit that it's an irrational, more emotional than intellectual belief in its superior qualities and general indestructibility. I believe it, but believing it means coming to terms with the fact that it's not true .
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 33,656
Bikes: '96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '20 Surly Midnight Special, All are 3x10. It is hilly around here!
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2026 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,095 Times
in
741 Posts
For a given volume, Ti is approx 1/3 the weight AND 1/3 the strength of equivelent grade steel*. Al is 1/2 weight and 1/2 the strength of steel.
For future reference, the densities of these metals are approximately:
Al = 2.7 gms/cc
Ti = 4.5 gms/cc
Steel = 7.9 gms/cc
#12
Cycle Dallas
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Land of Gar, TX
Posts: 3,777
Bikes: Dulcinea--2017 Kona Rove & a few others
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 197 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
5 Posts
Originally Posted by Nessism
I think this nicely sums up my lesson for the day:
Originally Posted by grolby
When you get right down to it, good engineering will allow any bicycle frame to transcend its material properties. Steel can be light, titanium can be stiff, aluminum can give a nice ride. Engineering is far more critical to the weight, ride and handling of a bicycle than its material properties.
#13
Senior Member
What material do you think is best?
So What is the state of carbon and where is it going?
WOW!! Reynolds 953 stainless steel <-- figures for weight/strength/stiffness here
Can't stop carbon revolution.
Is carbon really stronger than steel?
Best frame material /configuration for climbing?
What's so real about steel?
Steel Bike Choices
materials
What happened to Titanium?
ti vs al
Cannondales too stiff?
If you ride a carbon bike.
Just a tally of frame failures...
steel is real, but...
Steel (ChroMo) vs. Aluminum
Custom ti bikes: round tubes or fancy-pants shaped tubes?
Steel frame weights
A story about carbon forks
When weight doesn't matter, is carbon still better than steel?
Half Carbon/Half Steel frame?
Titanium.......Bastard Step Child?
Anyone ride aluminum..and like it?
carbon vs aluminum
steel bike vs. aluminum ?
6061 aluminum vs. 7005 aluminum
Aluminum: wear out?
Steel vs everything else
Carbon Fiber fragility
How durable is carbon fiber?
Bike Materials of the Future
Pros riding Steel
Carbon v. Ti
steelframes-lugged vs. butted?
TI, Carbon or AL - which is STIFFER ?
Steel vs. Aluminum
Aluminum as frame material - Reached its peak?
carbon fiber bike?
Frame Material
Ti or Carbon for light rider?
Ever Broken Carbon Fiber?
Carbon Bikes
Why are forks often made of different materials from frames?
Ti vs. Carbon
Anyone ride aluminum..and like it?
Steel bikes - Light As You Wanna Be
Flexible Frame?
carbon vs aluminum
What's stronger, a 3lb steel frame, or a 3lb aluminum?
Steel Frame Life
aluminium frame failures-- myth or fact?
Aluminum or Carbon - Which is stiffer?
Steel Bikes
How does Titanium ride?
Steel, Carbon, Aluminium or Titanium Frame??
Ti vs Al vs Steel need help thanks
Why would Alum feel better than Steel?
Carbon Conspiracy....
Is Aluminum stronger than Steel?
If steel is real, then what is carbon fiber?
has anyone seen ti crack?
biased against steel?
tell me about the different frame materials, please.
materials
Titanium or Steel?
Frames made from air hardening alloy
Steel, Aluminum, Titanium, Carbon - What's the difference in the ride!
Full Carbon Bikes
frame materal
Titanium Frames
Aluminum + carbon frames: better ride?
Aluminium, Ti, or Carbon
Good read on frame metallurgy
Steel vs. aluminum w/carbon fork
How much does a frame REALLY matter?
frame material
What kind of materials do you prefer?
steel bike vs. aluminum ?
Titanium vs. Carbon Fiber
Are aluminum bikes THAT uncomfortable?
Alloy vs Carbon
CANNONDALE VS TREK. (the debate begins)
Carbon fiber vs Steel vs Aluminum vs Ti
Titanium vs. Aluminum Frames
Titanium, steel, aluminum, carbon?
Properties of most materials used in the bike-industry can be researched here: MatWeb - material property data. However, comparing simple materials properties is only relevant if you're comparing two bikes of exactly the same dimensions and design. Good engineering would design to take advantage of the unique properties of each material. You can get good frames made from steel, aluminium, titanium, carbon, magnesium in the 2.0-2.25 lb range. If you pee and take a big dump before a ride, you can lose -5 lbs...
So What is the state of carbon and where is it going?
WOW!! Reynolds 953 stainless steel <-- figures for weight/strength/stiffness here
Can't stop carbon revolution.
Is carbon really stronger than steel?
Best frame material /configuration for climbing?
What's so real about steel?
Steel Bike Choices
materials
What happened to Titanium?
ti vs al
Cannondales too stiff?
If you ride a carbon bike.
Just a tally of frame failures...
steel is real, but...
Steel (ChroMo) vs. Aluminum
Custom ti bikes: round tubes or fancy-pants shaped tubes?
Steel frame weights
A story about carbon forks
When weight doesn't matter, is carbon still better than steel?
Half Carbon/Half Steel frame?
Titanium.......Bastard Step Child?
Anyone ride aluminum..and like it?
carbon vs aluminum
steel bike vs. aluminum ?
6061 aluminum vs. 7005 aluminum
Aluminum: wear out?
Steel vs everything else
Carbon Fiber fragility
How durable is carbon fiber?
Bike Materials of the Future
Pros riding Steel
Carbon v. Ti
steelframes-lugged vs. butted?
TI, Carbon or AL - which is STIFFER ?
Steel vs. Aluminum
Aluminum as frame material - Reached its peak?
carbon fiber bike?
Frame Material
Ti or Carbon for light rider?
Ever Broken Carbon Fiber?
Carbon Bikes
Why are forks often made of different materials from frames?
Ti vs. Carbon
Anyone ride aluminum..and like it?
Steel bikes - Light As You Wanna Be
Flexible Frame?
carbon vs aluminum
What's stronger, a 3lb steel frame, or a 3lb aluminum?
Steel Frame Life
aluminium frame failures-- myth or fact?
Aluminum or Carbon - Which is stiffer?
Steel Bikes
How does Titanium ride?
Steel, Carbon, Aluminium or Titanium Frame??
Ti vs Al vs Steel need help thanks
Why would Alum feel better than Steel?
Carbon Conspiracy....
Is Aluminum stronger than Steel?
If steel is real, then what is carbon fiber?
has anyone seen ti crack?
biased against steel?
tell me about the different frame materials, please.
materials
Titanium or Steel?
Frames made from air hardening alloy
Steel, Aluminum, Titanium, Carbon - What's the difference in the ride!
Full Carbon Bikes
frame materal
Titanium Frames
Aluminum + carbon frames: better ride?
Aluminium, Ti, or Carbon
Good read on frame metallurgy
Steel vs. aluminum w/carbon fork
How much does a frame REALLY matter?
frame material
What kind of materials do you prefer?
steel bike vs. aluminum ?
Titanium vs. Carbon Fiber
Are aluminum bikes THAT uncomfortable?
Alloy vs Carbon
CANNONDALE VS TREK. (the debate begins)
Carbon fiber vs Steel vs Aluminum vs Ti
Titanium vs. Aluminum Frames
Titanium, steel, aluminum, carbon?
Properties of most materials used in the bike-industry can be researched here: MatWeb - material property data. However, comparing simple materials properties is only relevant if you're comparing two bikes of exactly the same dimensions and design. Good engineering would design to take advantage of the unique properties of each material. You can get good frames made from steel, aluminium, titanium, carbon, magnesium in the 2.0-2.25 lb range. If you pee and take a big dump before a ride, you can lose -5 lbs...
Last edited by DannoXYZ; 11-28-05 at 07:33 PM.