simplify

I'm trying to retension a wheel that has broken a drive-side spoke twice now (different spokes). I've replaced the spoke, and taken down the tension to basically start from scratch on the truing and tensioning process. I've heard that it is important to settle the spoke elbows against the hub flanges, and this wheel appears to have tiny gaps between the flange and the spoke just above the elbow, where the spoke exits the inside of the flange. Is this normal, and if not, how can I eliminate it? Do the elbows need to be bent more so that they don't have this gap between the spoke bend and the inside flange edge?

mechBgon

It could also be a case of cheap spokes and/or thin hub flanges, where there is really not much hope of getting them to lay down nicely like that. Macro pics?

phantomcow2

You can use a spoke head punch.
Its basically just a punch with the end the same diameter of a spoke head. Then you use roughly a 1/4lb mallet, and just tap the spoke heads. THis ensures that they seat properly in the holes.

mechBgon

Here's a macro pic of a reasonably-thick hub flange with decent spokes,
showing how you want the spoke to lie down against the flange.
I know this will make everything annoyingly wide, but bear with me.



And here is my usual technique for settling the elbows, using a Wiha nut driver
with a smooth shaft since that's my favorite tool for this task:



Hope that helps. Bigger picture: if your rear wheel is habitually breaking spokes, you really
are due for a full rebuild with all-new high-quality spokes.

CHenry

Peter White laments the recent changes made by DT Swiss regarding this very problem. Apparently the distance between the spoke head and right-angle bend was lengthened to accommodate the wider Hugi hub flanges made by the same company.
It sort of forces you to buy those hubs if you want the best fit. Because of this, Peter is switching his spokes inventory to Wheelsmith for future wheel building.

As for setting a precision part like that, you might consider a rawhide mallet.

simplify

Here are a couple pics, I hope that helps. These are 14 gauge stainless, I think they're DT spokes. Maybe this is normal? But it seems like where they come out of the flange on the inside, they just aren't touching any part of the flange except where the elbow passes through the actual hole.

simplify

Yes, I remember reading that post in one of the threads I found when searching the archives. Those macro photos from MechBgon are really helpful, thank you so much. Those sure look different from mine, wow. I didn't know that spoke heads could seat so well and the bends are so nice and flat against the flange. Are they like that on the inside of the flange too? I think I'll try to seat these heads better and try the "nut driver" method of making them maybe lay a little flatter against the flange, then complete the re-tension and truing. If I break one more spoke, that's strike three, and I'll do a full rebuild (with Wheelsmith spokes!). Thank you to everyone for your help!

GreyGoat

or reuse the same DTs spoke with the special eyelets to take up the space.. also discussed in Peter's website..

San Rensho 

If you think the the space between the spoke and the flange is causing the problem, lace the wheel so that the outside spokes are pulling, not the inside spokes as you have it now. Then the driving spokes will lie against the flange.

phantomcow2

Im using 15g spokes with DT 240 hubs. The hubs have smaller diameter drilled holes, i have not measured it with my caliper but i could tell a difference by eye with that and a shimano.
See if you can get ahold of those little brass washers, i think AE bike has them. They fill the extra space like another poster said, thats what i did as 15g spokes are 1.8mm and i think the spoke hole was drilled to 2.3mm (not positive on that figure). Between that and a spoke head punch, the spokes seat perfectly.

mechBgon

I could put some of those washers in an envelope and send them via US Mail if you want some, lawkd, I have a little baggie of them left over from my wrenching days. But you'd probably want to bite the bullet and do a full wheel rebuild with new spokes while you're at it. I'd pick 14-15ga. double-butted spokes and still use the washers as well.

Actually... what rim is that, and how many spokes in the wheel? I've still got some Wheelsmith butted 14-gauge spokes left over from the last wheel build I did. If by chance it can be rebuilt with 296's on both sides, you'd be welcome to these, no charge

I have a spoke-length calculator, so LMK the rim and spoke count and I can see if they'd work out.

simplify

Sounds like those washers and some new spokes will do the trick! I'm so grateful to all of you for your help. MechBgon, I'll send a PM with the specifics of the rim etc, thank you so much!

mechBgon

Sure thing Also, given the apparent age of the rim, it might be a good idea to look closely for cracks around the eyelets, like this rim of mine:

Monoix

Ok, this is the oldest thread I've ever brought back from life (I think), but I'm very curious about the technique used by mechBgon, and of course the pictures he linked to are gone, not uploaded to the forum... Does someone have them saved, by any chance?

I'm having issues deciding if I should use spoke washers or maybe squeeze down the spokes towards the flanges or a combination, and I think those pictures would help, seeing what can be done.

It's DT Champion spokes and an Alfine hub. The flanges are 2.9-3 mm while an Ultegra hub I have measure 3.3 mm. Even on the Ultegra the elbows doesn't seem to seat correctly, leaving a gap between the spoke and flange.

canopus 

*** doh ***

Get some Wheelsmith Spokes. It builds a stronger wheel but it isn't that big of a deal. If you have enough space to put washers on the spokes it isn't worth building IMHO.

mrrabbit 

Me wonders if you are using 7.0mm elbow. For 14g, measure outside of shank to outside of the mushroom - if greater than 6.3mm - that's your problem and those spokes will continue to fail no matter how much tension you use.

The hub is fine - standard 3.2mm flanges. Nothing out of the ordinary there...

=8-)

vredstein

Are you talking about an Alfine IGH hub? Here's what a 36-hole Nexus IGH hub looks like built with Wheelsmith DB14 spokes on a 700c rim. The flanges are about 3.3mm wide.
At first, I just laced the wheel, got a bit of tension on it, then used my thumbs to form the heads in spokes to lie in a straight line from hub to rim. The problem was that the spokes exited the flange at a very acute angle, so forming them while laced resulted in a "bow" in the first few cm's of spoke. (see first and last pic)
So I wound up forming them while unlaced, exiting perpendicular to the hub. (see third pic)
This resulted in the spokes laying flat against the flange. Heads out spokes needed no forming. (see second pic

mrrabbit 

Me needs to read dates....

Monoix

My post was recent...

I tried with one washer and it worked fine actually. I noticed even though the flanges are thinner [than normal/Ultegra], the spoke holes are not much recessed, so the head of the spokes doesn't sink down as deep, pulling the spoke tighter to the flange comparatively. But I will probably use washers even with the Ultegra hub now when I took a closer look and saw how deep the heads went in. I'm quite surprised about the washers (probably) being needed, there must be several hundred of wheels built with Shimano hubs and DT spokes each week, and I haven't seen anything about it. These are my first wheels I'm building, and it was just luck I had these washers, having bought them for using with an old steel hub originally. The hub I laced now is an Alfine DH-S501 disc brake generator hub, basically the same as the DH-3N72.

I've never seen DT spokes specificated with different elbow lengths? They are not 7 mm though, 6.3 to the edge of the head it is. And as I live in Europe, the only other choice for spokes would be Sapim. I think I've seen straight Wheelsmith spokes once in a german or english webshop, maybe there are butted too, but they're not easily available.

Still I'm interested in seeing what mechBgon's tips were... I'm guessing he's just tapping down the spoke flat on the flange, using a smooth and rounded tool (the nut driver).

mrrabbit 

Old DT 14g are typically 6.1mm, newer often 6.2mm.

In your case, going with washers is what a couple of older wheelbuilders I know typically do...

I'm a big believer in avoiding band-aids - but when justified (i.e., it's not because you are lazy or cheap) then so goes it.

I ran into a generator hub recently (think it was a modern Sturmey Archer) that had a slightly thinner than normal flange. Instead of 14g with washers - I went with 13g/14g single butted with high tension as I normally do - seemed to be good enough. Have no doubts the wheel will do just fine.

=8-)

As far as materially manipulating spokes during the build (other than lacing and stress releiving) I just don't go there.