TallRider

Now, let me say first that Shimano has some legitimate compatibility issues to make known within their component lines. Such as, Dura-Ace 2004-and-following freehubs will only take 10-speed cassettes. And that DA 8-speed and previous rear deraillers and shifters aren't compatible with other Shimano indexed RD's and shifters because of a different cable pull.

But alternately, I just updated my road bike to 9-speed (I know, I know... but I don't race, run a triple, and a 12-23 8-speed cassette is closely spaced enough for my needs) and installed Shimano Dura-Ace bar-end shifters. These are Shimano's only bar-end shifters, and the 9-speed cable pull is the same across all Shimano groups for road and mountain. So I'm running the shifters with an old Deore XT rear derailler (labeled 8-speed, but it has the same cable-pull as all other Shimano deraillers except the DA noted above, and thus would work with any Shimano indexed shifting system from 6-speed on up. Shifts perfectly over the 9-speed 12-26 SRAM cassette, as it should.

But here's the kicker: the user's manual service instructions say that "this shifting lever cannot be used with any rear derailler other than the Dura-Ace." (emphasis mine) Which is pure and total B.S. Shimano also "highly recommends" that the shifters be paired with all Dura-Ace drivetrain items: front derailler, cable and cable housing, and sprockets.

The only possible rescue for the the "cannot" statement is if you're going to use the shifters for 8-speed drivetrain - they're compatible with Dura-Ace 8-speed only, which had a diff cable pull than all other Shimano 8-speed.
But on the whole, the statement is intentionally misleading, and in my book amounts to lying.
Not that I dislike Shimano's parts or innovation. But I hate these sorts of corporate practices.

Gonzo Bob

I installed Dura-ace 9-speed bar-ends on my triathlon bike a few years ago and remember reading that and sarcastically thinking "so how do all those 9-speed 105 and Ultegra equipped bar-end shifting triathlon bikes work?"

Dura-ace has a long history of not being completely compatible. It started before indexed shifting, too. Dura-ace Uniglide freehubs were not compatible with other Shimano. They attached to the hub shell differently and had different threading to allow an 11T cog. I guess the 9-speed Hyperglide compatibility was just a temporary thing

mayukawa

I think they make things incompatible so they have patents on it and protect their market share. Meaning competitors will either have to license their stuff or come up with their own (incompatible) designs. Like how Shimano went from the square-tapered design to the Octalink (forcing others to come up with ISIS). Of course other incompatible changes are because of better designs, like Octalink/ISIS to outboard bearings.

TallRider

Since 9-speed DA has been fully compatible with the rest of Shimano shifters, cassettes, deraillers etc. Only diff now is 10-speed DA freehub only accepts 10-speed cassettes. But the rest of the drivetrain components are still compatible with everything else Shimano makes.

My point was that the 9-speed Dura-Ace bar-end shifters instructions say that the shifters are only compatible with DA rear derailler, when in fact they are compatible with 105 and Ultegra... and Acera-X, for that matter. Just an outright lie.

Gonzo Bob

That's what I was getting at. Dura-ace 10s has less backward compatibility than 9s. If I were to buy some bad-ass 10s wheel built on a Dura-ace hub for my 10s triathlon bike, I can't use it in my 9s road bike. But I run 9s on my tri-bike and have the ability to put an 8s cassette on my race wheel an use it in my road bike.


Edit: Another twist - I was installing some 7-speed bar-ends on my commuting bike a few nights ago and noticed a sticker on it that said "cannot be used with Dura-ace". At the time that was printed they couldn't, but they can be used with a 9 or 10s Dura-ace derailer

well biked

I'm currently using Dura-Ace Bar-ends with a nine speed system (SRAM 11 x 32 cassette, Shimano XT rear derailleur). I was puzzled, too, when I saw the note in the instructions that the shifters should only be used with Dura-Ace. My setup shifts beautifully, index in rear and friction front (the front der. is a 105 triple). I have no idea what Shimano's talking about on this one, but I still love the shifters-

HillRider

I guess Shimano's Marketing Department figures that statement will make the uneducated spring for the more expensive Dura Ace components and the rest of us will ignore it. Yeah, it's a bit unethical but so is most marketing.

The 10-speed Dura Ace hub being incompatible with anything but 10-speed cassettes is the result of the freehub body being Aluminum. It had to have deeper splines to avoid notching from the cassette splines. It was done as a weight saving measure, not just to irritate you. Ultegra 10-speed hubs, with their steel freehub body, can accept any 8,9 or 10-speed cassette.

Brian

I can't believe all of you could be this dumb. Really. Everyone knows you can't use Dura Ace with anything but Dura Ace. Mixing it with Ultegra makes you some kind of wannabe poseur that can't afford the full gruppo. Mixing it with XT makes you some kind of fringe-dwelling freak, one step away from those ss/fixie rebels.

I remember reading a comment Richard Pryor (RIP, funny brotha!) made when asked if his accident was caused by freebasing. He said he was having some milk and cookies, and he dipped a chocolate chip cookie into some low fat milk, and the **** just exploded. Maybe that's what happens when you mix DA with other gruppos. Be careful.


*Please note that profanity is not allowed on Bikeforums. I used asterisks, but you can probably figure out what he said.

HillRider

Gee, I was under the impression (mistaken it seems) that mixing Dura Ace with Ultegra, or even 105, showed your independence and a disregard for useless social convention. Silly me.

Brian

I left off the [/sarcasm] tags. Hope that didn't confuse anyone.

khuon

Ooooh. Now I get it.

Sheldon Brown

I don't recall the exact wording but I've run into this confusion before...I think it says it can only be used with a Dura-Ace "system" not just the derailer.

However, I don't believe there's any evil intent to this. When these shifters were introduced, back in 1997, Dura-Ace was Shimano's only 9-speed system, and the warning was basically correct.

The bar-end shifters, unlike the STI units, have remained unchanged since then, and Shimano has not found any pressing need to spend money to redesign the packaging for this low-volume item.

Sheldon "Not A Conspiracy, Just Inertia" Brown

Brian

Pssst, Sheldon. Someone needs your help. There's a guy with a Cannondale Moto 120 looking for a Sachs disc brake. He's posted in MTB, and in Tandems.

Cheers.

well biked

Well, shoot. First I find out Expatriate was being sarcastic when he called me and those like me "fringe dwelling freaks" for hooking our Dura-Ace shifters up to XT derailleurs (I've never felt so alive!), and now Mr. Brown informs us that there's no conspiracy involved with Shimano's instructions. Oh well.........

TallRider

Well, it's good to know that the "way out" I'd left open for charitably interpreting Shimano's packaging insert does, in fact, hold. Thanks Sheldon. And thanks to the rest of you for laughs. My XT rear der is shifting beautifully with the DA bar-end shifters, btw. And now paired with a front XTR 5-bolt 110 BCD crank with 50/36/24 chainrings, mounted on a DA 102mm square-taper BB, shifted by a Suntour XC Comp front derailler connected to the DA bar-end shifter. Far beyond fringe. And that's without mentioning that the 50t chainring is a black-anodized FSA ring. And the 24t is a steel SR.

Brian

I'll point out that road tandem owners have been using the XTR rear derailleur for years.

HillRider

You didn't.

TallRider

Yeah, the reason that I built my bike up with the XTR crank and XT derailler, to begin with, was that road triple setups were very hard to come by 10 years ago. The XT derailler's cage angle was a fair bit more open than the 11-21 cassette I ran at first (XT being able to handle 34), but it shifted flawlessly.