Why a long saddle?
05-02-01, 01:48 PM
#1
Mr. Cellophane
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: New Orleans, LA
Posts: 3,037
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I don't know if this is so much a mechanics question, but here goes. I currently ride a Terry Liberator. I find it quite comfortable for my 20+ miles of commuting per day. But the padding is on the soft side as saddles go, and I wonder if it will be comfortable on longer rides. I am therefore looking at more supportive saddles that may require breaking in, or as Steve put it, the saddle breaking me in. 
Anyway, the Liberator is a short saddle. Most saddles seem to have a long snout design. The more serious the application, the longer the snout seems to be. What is the benefit of the longer snout? Does it just give more fore/aft seating options during the ride for situations where one might need to be farther forward or farther back, say while, turning, climbing, sprinting, etc.?
Anyway, the Liberator is a short saddle. Most saddles seem to have a long snout design. The more serious the application, the longer the snout seems to be. What is the benefit of the longer snout? Does it just give more fore/aft seating options during the ride for situations where one might need to be farther forward or farther back, say while, turning, climbing, sprinting, etc.?
__________________
If it ain't broke, mess with it anyway!
If it ain't broke, mess with it anyway!
05-02-01, 01:58 PM
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Snowy midwest
Posts: 5,391
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Raymond, I know what you mean about those saddles with long snouts.
They look like hemorrhoid ticklers.
I personally don't trust any fellow who chooses a saddle with a 7"+ snout on it. I certainly don't want him riding behind me, and by the same token, I don't feel comfortable being behind him either (not too close anyway).
It will be interesting to hear some of the feedback concerning the need for long snouts on saddles. I rode a "Comfort Seat" for awhile and am convinced there is very little need for a snout at all except to help aim your fanny onto the saddle. The Comfort Seat was two separate pads; one for each cheek. There is no nose.
They look like hemorrhoid ticklers.
I personally don't trust any fellow who chooses a saddle with a 7"+ snout on it. I certainly don't want him riding behind me, and by the same token, I don't feel comfortable being behind him either (not too close anyway).
It will be interesting to hear some of the feedback concerning the need for long snouts on saddles. I rode a "Comfort Seat" for awhile and am convinced there is very little need for a snout at all except to help aim your fanny onto the saddle. The Comfort Seat was two separate pads; one for each cheek. There is no nose.
05-02-01, 02:27 PM
#3
Mr. Cellophane
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: New Orleans, LA
Posts: 3,037
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Hey, Mike, I had one of the two pad seats for a while, a Spongy Wonder. Boy, did it look funny. But it was quite comfortable and got me started riding regularly when I was heavier and a regular saddle was uncomfortable.
I noticed in watching some of the races on OLN that the pros sometimes sit way up on the snout so that is why I figured it was for positioning depending on the situation.
I noticed in watching some of the races on OLN that the pros sometimes sit way up on the snout so that is why I figured it was for positioning depending on the situation.
__________________
If it ain't broke, mess with it anyway!
If it ain't broke, mess with it anyway!
05-02-01, 04:00 PM
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 306
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I read a piece by Grant Peterson of Rivendell Bicycle Works. He says that saddle noses are important because much of the steering is done with the hip, and the rider uses the nose for support and balance in holding the corners. Saddle pads look scary balance-wise.
He also says the the shape of the nose is important to men for support of youknowwhat. That's why female-specific saddles are shorter.
He also says the the shape of the nose is important to men for support of youknowwhat. That's why female-specific saddles are shorter.
05-02-01, 08:13 PM
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Snowy midwest
Posts: 5,391
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
That makes good sense. Now that you mention it, I have used the saddle nose for steering as well.
As for needing the nose for manly support... have those riders never heard of an athletic supporter?
As for needing the nose for manly support... have those riders never heard of an athletic supporter?
05-03-01, 06:07 AM
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: England
Posts: 12,948
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
7 Posts
The only saddles that need breaking are leather ones, but in the long run, they are the most comfortable.
Check out a Brooks Professional or B17.
In the old days, when racers used Brooks, they called it "Riding on the Rivet", the rivet being the one that holds the end of the saddle nose onto the frame. It means all-out sprinting, and although you are positioned on the nose, almost all your weight is supported by your legs.
Check out a Brooks Professional or B17.
In the old days, when racers used Brooks, they called it "Riding on the Rivet", the rivet being the one that holds the end of the saddle nose onto the frame. It means all-out sprinting, and although you are positioned on the nose, almost all your weight is supported by your legs.
05-04-01, 04:47 AM
#7
Guitar Hero
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 403
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I think saddle choice is like pillow choice...........uhhh yeah thats it !!LOL
__________________
Velosophy#1: It is better to have a bicycle and no money , than money and no bicycle ! Velosophy # 2 : "Winning is simple, but not easy." #3: "Give a man a fish and he shall eat for a day , teach him how to fish and he will sit in a boat and drink beer all day"
Velosophy#1: It is better to have a bicycle and no money , than money and no bicycle ! Velosophy # 2 : "Winning is simple, but not easy." #3: "Give a man a fish and he shall eat for a day , teach him how to fish and he will sit in a boat and drink beer all day"
05-05-01, 09:08 AM
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: KC,Mo. USA area
Posts: 53
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
When I first purchased my road bike 3 yrs ago, I had problems with the stock saddle. I asked the LBS the same qestion-why do you even need the nose on a saddle. The answer was, most of the bike control comes via the nose of the saddle. Anatomicly we're all just a little different.
I recently saw an add for a split adjustable width saddle. Can't remember the make or model, but it looked like the answer for allot of things.
This is one area that would make a good thread. What is normal for a road bike. Is numbness a part of the geometrical design? or is it a function of poor fit, improper saddle adjustment, etc. Is it acceptable? Common sense would dictate that long term this can't be good for the guy!!
I recently saw an add for a split adjustable width saddle. Can't remember the make or model, but it looked like the answer for allot of things.
This is one area that would make a good thread. What is normal for a road bike. Is numbness a part of the geometrical design? or is it a function of poor fit, improper saddle adjustment, etc. Is it acceptable? Common sense would dictate that long term this can't be good for the guy!!
05-10-01, 10:29 AM
#9
Just ride.
I think saddles intended for more intense riding do tend to have longer snouts. My guess, aside from needing to vary position on the saddle (back for mashing, way up front for hammering) is that for intense road riding, people tend to have their saddles higher. So, you really are straddling the seat more than sitting on it. That's also why the nose must be narrower. Too wide and it encourages chafing between the upper legs and crotch. At a lower level of effort, riders tend to drop their saddles a little, have more bend in the knees, and are sitting more over the saddle.
05-10-01, 10:38 AM
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 306
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Numbness and discomfort are not normal or acceptable for road bikes. Bodily comfort is essential for any form of biking. A lot of this can be worked out by playing with saddle position and stem height.
If you're numb down there, you may be leaning too far over. Support your "sit bones" with the saddle. Don't sit on your "between the legs stuff". Those soft areas get numb.
If you're numb down there, you may be leaning too far over. Support your "sit bones" with the saddle. Don't sit on your "between the legs stuff". Those soft areas get numb.
05-10-01, 12:02 PM
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Snowy midwest
Posts: 5,391
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
I have put on a lot of bike miles and always find a certain curiosity at the fellows who say they experience crotch numbness from bicycling.
The simple solution is to point the nose of the seat down ever so much that your tailbone rides on the back of the seat to support you. (somehow, it just seems that this is what God had intended for man).
If somebody can tell me the advantage or need to heave your scrotum onto the nose of the bike, I would sure be willing to listen.
The simple solution is to point the nose of the seat down ever so much that your tailbone rides on the back of the seat to support you. (somehow, it just seems that this is what God had intended for man).
If somebody can tell me the advantage or need to heave your scrotum onto the nose of the bike, I would sure be willing to listen.
05-10-01, 12:15 PM
#12
RAGBRAI. Need I say more?
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: West Branch, Iowa USA
Posts: 868
Bikes: 1998 Mongoose NX7.1, 2008 Kona Jake, GT singlespeed (year unknown).
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally posted by mike
If somebody can tell me the advantage or need to heave your scrotum onto the nose of the bike, I would sure be willing to listen.
If somebody can tell me the advantage or need to heave your scrotum onto the nose of the bike, I would sure be willing to listen.
But seriously, since I don't know any women who bike (my girlfriend has the same bike she's had since she was 12) let me ask this, do women have same comfort issues with saddles as men do?
05-11-01, 01:29 AM
#13
Judged by weight alone...
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: I live in Hell...
Posts: 160
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Servus!
Treading on dangerous ground now....
As for females having similar problems, RangerGirl (my intrepid wife) just started riding about two months ago and has been dealing with seat issues from the get go. We were able to solve the issue with a comfy gel saddle and shorts with a pad.
On the other women's cycling forums out there, saddle comfort is a recurring topic and it seems like some women spend inordinate amounts of money trying to find a comfy saddle. I don't even want to guess what riding a bike would be like with different plumbing!
Treading on dangerous ground now....
As for females having similar problems, RangerGirl (my intrepid wife) just started riding about two months ago and has been dealing with seat issues from the get go. We were able to solve the issue with a comfy gel saddle and shorts with a pad.
On the other women's cycling forums out there, saddle comfort is a recurring topic and it seems like some women spend inordinate amounts of money trying to find a comfy saddle. I don't even want to guess what riding a bike would be like with different plumbing!
05-11-01, 06:52 AM
#14
Mr. Cellophane
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: New Orleans, LA
Posts: 3,037
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Actually, weren't saddles with cutouts originally designed for women? I think it was later that it was determined that they might be good for everyone.
__________________
If it ain't broke, mess with it anyway!
If it ain't broke, mess with it anyway!
05-12-01, 07:47 PM
#15
Just ride.
Rainman's original question raises a good point. It seems like the saddle manufacturers should put out some better, more detailed guidelines. Or FAQs to answer questions like "what good is a longer snout?" Granted it's an inexact science, but so is every other aspect of bike fit.
Last edited by roadbuzz; 05-12-01 at 08:14 PM.
05-12-01, 09:21 PM
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Snowy midwest
Posts: 5,391
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Speaking of women's saddles, I posted this in the Womens Cycling discussion group already under the thread "sore bumm" or something like that.
Still, it is kinda interesting and artistic at the same time. It seems that women have been searching for some kind of special anatomical seat since bicycling began.
Behold the ladies seat of 1897:
Still, it is kinda interesting and artistic at the same time. It seems that women have been searching for some kind of special anatomical seat since bicycling began.
Behold the ladies seat of 1897:
05-13-01, 07:23 AM
#17
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: England
Posts: 12,948
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
7 Posts
Its amazing that most new cycling inventions have a long history. Clipless pedals, suspension etc are all about 100yrs old
05-14-01, 07:19 AM
#18
Mr. Cellophane
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: New Orleans, LA
Posts: 3,037
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
My original question arose out of something I saw on one of the races on OLN about a month ago, maybe the Tour of Langkawi. On a couple of occasions I noticed pros sitting well forward on their saddles, I mean right up on the snout with most of the saddle visible behind them. It didn't occur to me until later to ask about it so I can't remember exactly what they were doing at the time that might hint at why they were sitting like this. I know they weren't climbing. I think they may have been pedaling hard but not actually sprinting. Maybe the were "riding on the rivet" as MichaelW mentioned.
__________________
If it ain't broke, mess with it anyway!
If it ain't broke, mess with it anyway!
05-28-01, 04:37 PM
#19
Just ride.
On a sort-of related note, I came across a post by Sheldon Brown in an email list I thought was interesting. He was talking about Brooks saddles for women:
The models commonly marketed as "women's" saddles are the "S" series.
The "S" stands for "short." and has nothing to do with the width.
Traditionally, "women's" saddles have been both wider and shorter
than "men's" saddles. The width makes sense because women tend to
have wider hips...but why shorter?
From what I've been able to determine, there's no physiological
reason for women to choose short saddles. I believe this is a
hold-over from saddles designed to be used while the rider was
wearing a skirt. A long saddle will bunch up a skirt and looks funny.
YMMV, but my wife rides standard Brooks Professionals on both of her
bikes, including the one she did Paris-Brest-Paris on. When she
became pregnant she found them uncomfortable and switched to an
Avocet "woman's" model, but then went back to the Brooks Pro after
our second child was weaned...
The "S" stands for "short." and has nothing to do with the width.
Traditionally, "women's" saddles have been both wider and shorter
than "men's" saddles. The width makes sense because women tend to
have wider hips...but why shorter?
From what I've been able to determine, there's no physiological
reason for women to choose short saddles. I believe this is a
hold-over from saddles designed to be used while the rider was
wearing a skirt. A long saddle will bunch up a skirt and looks funny.
YMMV, but my wife rides standard Brooks Professionals on both of her
bikes, including the one she did Paris-Brest-Paris on. When she
became pregnant she found them uncomfortable and switched to an
Avocet "woman's" model, but then went back to the Brooks Pro after
our second child was weaned...
06-12-01, 07:13 AM
#20
Mr. Cellophane
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: New Orleans, LA
Posts: 3,037
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
FWIW, I think an indirect answer came in this the July bicycling. And, of course, after seeing that, I have also read the same thing in a training book. Sitting well forward emphasizes the quads and facilitates spinning, so jumping and sprinting. Sitting well back brings hamstrings and glutes more into the process and emphasizes power so is useful in climbing.
Speaking of Bicycling mag, am I the only one mildly insulted by its "short attention span" format? I guess they save a lot of money on writers by producing a magazine that is mostly reader contributions. Don't get me wrong. I do feel like I get worthwhile information and I enjoy the product reviews, but I read Cycle Sport to get more depth.
Speaking of Bicycling mag, am I the only one mildly insulted by its "short attention span" format? I guess they save a lot of money on writers by producing a magazine that is mostly reader contributions. Don't get me wrong. I do feel like I get worthwhile information and I enjoy the product reviews, but I read Cycle Sport to get more depth.
__________________
If it ain't broke, mess with it anyway!
If it ain't broke, mess with it anyway!
06-12-01, 12:07 PM
#21
Mr. Cellophane
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: New Orleans, LA
Posts: 3,037
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Whew! Thanks, Ba-Dg-ER. I thought maybe I was being, in Spiro Agnew's words, an "effete intellectual snob."
__________________
If it ain't broke, mess with it anyway!
If it ain't broke, mess with it anyway!
06-13-01, 10:17 AM
#22
Just ride.
No, Rainman, you are not just being a nattering nabob of negativity. One person, complaining about the excessive hype and sensationalism in the magazine, compared it to the National Enquirer...
Elvis Spotted Riding Gary Fisher Mountain Bike!
Elvis Spotted Riding Gary Fisher Mountain Bike!
06-13-01, 08:43 PM
#23
Love Me....Love My Bike!
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 1,231
Bikes: Bikes: Giant hybrid, Trek 4500, Cannondale R800 Some commuting 20mi/day, mostly fitness riding - 20-50 mile rides
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Roadbuzz, I love your way with words!
Your erudition is enlighteningly eloquent!
Your erudition is enlighteningly eloquent!
__________________
"...perhaps the world needs a little more Canada" - Jean Chretian, 2003.
"...perhaps the world needs a little more Canada" - Jean Chretian, 2003.
06-13-01, 08:55 PM
#24
hyperactive ferret
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Posts: 292
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
A bike walks (rolls?) into a bar. The bartender says, "Hey, why the long saddle?"
Ummm...
Nope. It definately works better with the horse. Disregard this.
Ummm...
Nope. It definately works better with the horse. Disregard this.
__________________
Work to eat. Eat to live. Live to ride. Ride to work.
Work to eat. Eat to live. Live to ride. Ride to work.
06-16-01, 11:53 AM
#25
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 1,148
Bikes: Seven Axiom Ti, Trek 620, Masi cylocross (steel). Masi Souleville 8spd, Fat Chance Mtn. (steel), Schwinn Triple Bar cruiser, Mazi Speciale Fix/single, Schwinn Typhoon
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Rainman,
Your were right about the pros and spinning on the nose of the saddle, however riding the rivet refers to when a guy is going real hard to chase or get away. To "ride on the rivet" means the rider has moved forward to get in a time trial position to facilitate spinning at a high rpm, conversely a rider would move back on the saddle for the climbs and the beginning of a hard accleration for more torque.
Your were right about the pros and spinning on the nose of the saddle, however riding the rivet refers to when a guy is going real hard to chase or get away. To "ride on the rivet" means the rider has moved forward to get in a time trial position to facilitate spinning at a high rpm, conversely a rider would move back on the saddle for the climbs and the beginning of a hard accleration for more torque.