Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Bicycle Mechanics
Reload this Page >

spokes: which side of hub flange?

Notices
Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

spokes: which side of hub flange?

Old 04-05-06, 09:33 PM
  #1  
sheba
ec velo
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: eau claire, wi
Posts: 179

Bikes: XC: PUSS; Winter Beater: GT avalanche SS; Jump: Transition Trail or Park; Fixie: Steamroller

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
spokes: which side of hub flange?

When building a wheel should all of the pulling spokes be on the same side of the hub flanges?
A hub has two flanges. On each flange all the pulling spoke heads are either on the inside or the outside of the hub flange. Do both flanges need to be the same? Or can the pulling spokes be on the inside of one flange and the outside of another?
sheba is offline  
Old 04-05-06, 09:35 PM
  #2  
Sheldon Brown
Gone, but not forgotten
 
Sheldon Brown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Newtonville, Massachusetts
Posts: 2,301

Bikes: See: https://sheldonbrown.org/bicycles

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by sheba
When building a wheel should all of the pulling spokes be on the same side of the hub flanges?
A hub has two flanges. On each flange all the pulling spoke heads are either on the inside or the outside of the hub flange. Do both flanges need to be the same? Or can the pulling spokes be on the inside of one flange and the outside of another?
See: https://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuilding

Sheldon "Lynx" Brown
Sheldon Brown is offline  
Old 04-05-06, 11:46 PM
  #3  
TallRider
Senior Member
 
TallRider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Fresno, CA
Posts: 4,454
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 128 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times in 10 Posts
Also, look at pretty much any wheel out there for reference on how this works.
__________________
"c" is not a unit that measures tire width
TallRider is offline  
Old 04-06-06, 12:47 AM
  #4  
concernicus
Senior Member
 
concernicus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Santa Cruz
Posts: 425

Bikes: doesnt matter. just ride.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
definitely read sheldon's articles on wheelbuilding. and when youre done reading that, read everything else he has on his website. he is very wise
concernicus is offline  
Old 04-07-06, 01:28 AM
  #5  
sheba
ec velo
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: eau claire, wi
Posts: 179

Bikes: XC: PUSS; Winter Beater: GT avalanche SS; Jump: Transition Trail or Park; Fixie: Steamroller

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Ok, I've actually built several wheels before with great results. I have built my wheels with both sets of pulling spokes on the same side of the flanges as well as opposite sides with no noticeable difference. When looking at other wheels not built by myself, I find that they are built both ways as well. I have extensively read both Sheldon Brown's site (excellent site I might add) and Barnetts; I have found neither of these sources to address my question. Perhaps in some other book...?
sheba is offline  
Old 04-07-06, 02:00 AM
  #6  
urbanknight
Over the hill
 
urbanknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 23,943

Bikes: Giant Defy, Giant Revolt

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 794 Post(s)
Liked 885 Times in 525 Posts
Edited for mistake.

Originally Posted by timcupery
Also, look at pretty much any wheel out there for reference on how this works.
I have seen almost every combination on "stock" wheels, because the factory doesn't care how they are laced up as long as they are built quickly. Although to their credit, there is very little difference in performance as far as I can tell. The factory wheels go out of true quickly, but that's probably because nobody really checks for proper spoke tension on those sets.

I was taught by an old racer how to build wheels, and he claimed that the rear wheels should have the trailing spokes on the inside for strength (actually makes sense) while the fronts are the opposite for aerodynamics (not so sure about that one). I don't know if there is an ounce of truth to that, but I built all of my wheels by that rule and they stayed true for years at a time. Of course, I upset him when I built my front racing wheels radial laced, but I never had a problem with those either.

Last edited by urbanknight; 04-07-06 at 12:23 PM.
urbanknight is offline  
Old 04-07-06, 07:44 AM
  #7  
Wil Davis
Curmudgeon
 
Wil Davis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Nausea, New Hamster
Posts: 1,572

Bikes: (see https://wildavis.smugmug.com/Bikes) Bianchi Veloce (2005), Nishiki Cascade (1992), Schwinn Super Sport (1983)

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by urbanknight
ůsnip
I was taught by an old racer how to build wheels, and he claimed that the rear wheels should have the trailing spokes facing rearward for strength (actually makes sense) while the fronts are the opposite for aerodynamics (not so sure about that one).
ůsnip
Trailing spokes by definition face rearward. I thought the question was which side of the hub flange (see Sheldon Brown, Jobst Brandt, Gerd Schraner et al.)

- Wil
Wil Davis is offline  
Old 04-07-06, 09:54 AM
  #8  
Sheldon Brown
Gone, but not forgotten
 
Sheldon Brown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Newtonville, Massachusetts
Posts: 2,301

Bikes: See: https://sheldonbrown.org/bicycles

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by sheba
Ok, I've actually built several wheels before with great results. I have built my wheels with both sets of pulling spokes on the same side of the flanges as well as opposite sides with no noticeable difference. When looking at other wheels not built by myself, I find that they are built both ways as well. I have extensively read both Sheldon Brown's site (excellent site I might add) and Barnetts; I have found neither of these sources to address my question. Perhaps in some other book...?
I guess you didn't read my article thoroughly, because I do address this issue. There's even an anchor to the specific section:

https://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html#side


Which Side of the Flange?
Derailer rear wheels should be laced with the trailing spokes running up along the inside of the flange. There are three reasons for this:

The spokes are bent around each other at the outermost crossing. Under drive torque, especially in low gear, the trailing spokes straighten out and the leading spokes bend even more. If the wheel is laced with the trailing spokes on the outside of the flange, the crossing gets pulled outward toward the derailer cage, and in some cases will actually hit against the derailer only under load.

If the chain should overshoot the inner sprocket due to the derailer being mis-adjusted or bent, it is likely to get more seriously jammed between the spokes and the freewheel if the spokes slant so as to wedge the chain inward under load.*

If the chain should overshoot the inner sprocket, it may damage and weaken the spokes it rubs against. Since the trailing spokes are more highly stressed than the leading spokes, it is better to protect them from this type of damage by keeping them inboard.

It really doesn't matter which way you go on the left side, but if you have all the trailing spokes face inward it makes lacing the wheel a bit easier.
* In the case of fixed-gear or coaster-brake wheels, it is better to lace the opposite way, because a derailed chain is more likely to get jammed by backpedaling in these cases.
Sheldon "Like I Said..." Brown
Code:
+------------------------------------------------------+
|  When a thing ceases to be a subject of controversy, |
|  it ceases to be a subject of interest.              |
|                                   - William Hazlitt  |
+------------------------------------------------------+
Sheldon Brown is offline  
Old 04-07-06, 10:08 AM
  #9  
Retro Grouch 
Senior Member
 
Retro Grouch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: St Peters, Missouri
Posts: 30,225

Bikes: Catrike 559 I own some others but they don't get ridden very much.

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1571 Post(s)
Liked 640 Times in 361 Posts
I've never replaced a broken spoke that I could attribute to it coming from the wrong side of the hub flange. I've worked on wheels that were laced pretty much every way that you might imagine. I think that getting the tension even is a lot more important.

Years ago, purely by coincidence, I started building mine the way that Sheldon recommends and I've never had cause to change. I lace mine so the hubs are symmetrical just because I think that it looks better.
Retro Grouch is offline  
Old 04-07-06, 10:28 AM
  #10  
ronsmithjunior
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 372
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Of the nine wheels I have hanging around in my garage:

- seven are laced with the trailing spoke running along the outside of the flange
- one is laced with the trailing spoke running along the inside of the flange
- one is laced with one flange one way and the other the other

This is why I don't build my own wheels.
ronsmithjunior is offline  
Old 04-07-06, 11:32 AM
  #11  
TallRider
Senior Member
 
TallRider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Fresno, CA
Posts: 4,454
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 128 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times in 10 Posts
Sorry that I didn't read your initial post more carefully.
Only the rear wheel actually "pulls" with pulling spokes (unless you have disc brakes), and the pulling is done mostly by the drive-side spokes, for two reasons: (1) the hub flange isn't stiff enough to transmit much torque from the drive-side to the non-drive side, and (2) the spokes are looser on the non-drive side because of dishing.
Basically, as Sheldon said. Jobst Brandt gives similar reasons for building the rear wheel with the trailing/pulling spokes on the inside of the flange.

However, it's worth noting that modern spokes are much better than spokes 25 years ago (when Brandt first wrote his book; it's been through many editions by now), and also that a wheel whose spokes have been properly stress-relieved is unlikely to have problems even if built with trailing spokes on the outside of the drive-side flange.

Last edited by TallRider; 04-07-06 at 12:31 PM.
TallRider is offline  
Old 04-07-06, 12:25 PM
  #12  
urbanknight
Over the hill
 
urbanknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 23,943

Bikes: Giant Defy, Giant Revolt

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 794 Post(s)
Liked 885 Times in 525 Posts
Originally Posted by Wil Davis
Trailing spokes by definition face rearward. I thought the question was which side of the hub flange (see Sheldon Brown, Jobst Brandt, Gerd Schraner et al.)

- Wil
OOPS! I meant the trailing spokes on the inside. That was like saying the rear end of a car goes in the back. I edited it now, thanks for pointing it out.
urbanknight is offline  
Old 04-07-06, 12:29 PM
  #13  
urbanknight
Over the hill
 
urbanknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 23,943

Bikes: Giant Defy, Giant Revolt

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 794 Post(s)
Liked 885 Times in 525 Posts
Originally Posted by ronsmithjunior
Of the nine wheels I have hanging around in my garage:

- seven are laced with the trailing spoke running along the outside of the flange
- one is laced with the trailing spoke running along the inside of the flange
- one is laced with one flange one way and the other the other

This is why I don't build my own wheels.
Ahh, but that's exactly why I DO build my own wheels. At least I have a reason for where the spokes are, whether it makes a difference or not. I just have a problem riding some mass produced wheels where the manufacturer doesn't seem to care about consistency. Makes me wonder if they will use a longer or shorter spoke if they're out of the correct size, or if anyone actually tests the spoke tension, or even pretensions the spokes. I've also seen factory wheels with the stem in the wrong place (annoying in a 36h 4x wheel) and the labels facing opposite directions between front and rear (which is only a problem for the OCP in me)
urbanknight is offline  
Old 04-07-06, 12:34 PM
  #14  
TallRider
Senior Member
 
TallRider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Fresno, CA
Posts: 4,454
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 128 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times in 10 Posts
Originally Posted by urbanknight
Ahh, but that's exactly why I DO build my own wheels. At least I have a reason for where the spokes are, whether it makes a difference or not. I just have a problem riding some mass produced wheels where the manufacturer doesn't seem to care about consistency. Makes me wonder if they will use a longer or shorter spoke if they're out of the correct size, or if anyone actually tests the spoke tension, or even pretensions the spokes. I've also seen factory wheels with the stem in the wrong place (annoying in a 36h 4x wheel) and the labels facing opposite directions between front and rear (which is only a problem for the OCP in me)
I'm in agreement here. I think that ronsmithjunior is saying that he doesn't know what is the correct way, so he doesn't build his own wheels. But, after you've learned the right ways, and the reasons for them, I think it totally makes sense to build your own wheels.

I don't particularly care if the sticker is backwards, but that's because I usually remove stickers from my wheels anyway. Especially Open Pros or other wheels with gaudy advertising-stickers.

But any factory-built wheel, I will carefully top it off with tension, and equalize tension (and roundness) in the process.
TallRider is offline  
Old 04-07-06, 12:57 PM
  #15  
urbanknight
Over the hill
 
urbanknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 23,943

Bikes: Giant Defy, Giant Revolt

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 794 Post(s)
Liked 885 Times in 525 Posts
Yeah, the label isn't a big deal, but it does show a lack of concern over quality control. As for ronsmithjunior and his hesitation, I'll say that I have seen wheels built by major master wheelsmiths, and even they disagree on which side the spokes go on, although they do agree it has to be uniform (no trailing inside right, trailing outside left... except for drive wheels, which there are 3 opinions on). So as long as you keep it uniform, you should be ok. Do what I did and start learning by building a training set with bulletproof 32 or 36 hole rims. That way if you did something wrong, it probably won't throw a spoke and break your wheel... or your neck.
urbanknight is offline  
Old 04-10-06, 03:19 PM
  #16  
ronsmithjunior
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 372
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by urbanknight
Yeah, the label isn't a big deal, but it does show a lack of concern over quality control. As for ronsmithjunior and his hesitation, I'll say that I have seen wheels built by major master wheelsmiths, and even they disagree on which side the spokes go on, although they do agree it has to be uniform (no trailing inside right, trailing outside left... except for drive wheels, which there are 3 opinions on). So as long as you keep it uniform, you should be ok. Do what I did and start learning by building a training set with bulletproof 32 or 36 hole rims. That way if you did something wrong, it probably won't throw a spoke and break your wheel... or your neck.
Right, I figure if reputable wheel builders can't even agree, how am I supposed to know which is correct? I will agree that they should be uniform. I have a hard time believing that the person who put my Mavic Cosmos (trailing/pulling on outside) wheels together didn't know what they were doing.

My one, extremely cheap wheel had the trailing/pulling spokes on the inside. Come to think of it, that wheel was rebuilt by the wrench at the local Performance shop.

I have two older Campy hub, tubular, 36 spoke, 4x wheels. One is laced trailing/pulling on the outside, and the other is mis-matched.
ronsmithjunior is offline  
Old 04-30-06, 03:54 PM
  #17  
DeeDub
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: PDX
Posts: 28

Bikes: 84 Masi Track, Soma D Cross, Early 80's Medici Road

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
On Sheldon's site it says to lace fixed-gear rear wheels with the trailing spokes on the outside. Right?
Does that mean this method is best for track racing?

I'm more concerned with power transfer rather than binding up with my chain.

Could some one tell me the best way to lace a rear wheel 3X for track racing.
DeeDub is offline  
Old 04-30-06, 09:03 PM
  #18  
Sheldon Brown
Gone, but not forgotten
 
Sheldon Brown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Newtonville, Massachusetts
Posts: 2,301

Bikes: See: https://sheldonbrown.org/bicycles

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by DeeDub
On Sheldon's site it says to lace fixed-gear rear wheels with the trailing spokes on the outside. Right?
Does that mean this method is best for track racing?

I'm more concerned with power transfer rather than binding up with my chain.

Could some one tell me the best way to lace a rear wheel 3X for track racing.
It doesn't matter. Makes no difference. Do whatever pleases you.

Sheldon "Either Way" Brown
Code:
+----------------------------------------------------+
|  I reckon there's more things told than are true,  |  
|  And more things true than are told.               |
|                                 --Rudyard Kipling  |
+----------------------------------------------------+
Sheldon Brown is offline  
Old 05-12-15, 08:52 AM
  #19  
Nikola
Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Macedonia
Posts: 39
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
For rear wheels, I always follow Sheldon’s guidelines Wheelbuilding:

Derailleur wheels: all trailing spokes heads out
Singlespeed with freewheel: all trailing spokes heads out
Coaster brake hub: all trailing spokes heads in
Fixed gear: all trailing spokes heads in
Flip flop: all trailing spokes heads out on freewheel side, all trailing spokes heads in on the fixed sprocket side

Front wheel: all trailing spokes heads in

Disk brake (and other hub brakes): all trailing spokes heads out (however, I ignore this for wheels with coaster brake hubs)

The spokes with the heads inside the flange are capable of carrying more load, but that’s not an issue on derailleur wheels. That’s true. Here Disc wheel Lacing - Pvdwiki says that the drive-side trailing spokes should be heads in. However, on wheels with disk brakes, the braking forces are much, much higher than the driving forces, so it’s worth lacing all the spokes that carry the braking load (leading spokes) with the heads in, like I do. And a wheel built symmetrically, with all trailing spokes oriented with the heads outside (or inside) is much better than a wheel built asymmetrically. If someone is concerned about breaking spokes on a derailleur rear wheel without disk brake (for example a road racer), than it’s better to lace the wheel with all trailing spokes with the heads inside. For the same reason, I sometimes lace coaster brake wheels and fixed gear wheels with the trailing spokes with the heads on the inside, if the owner of the wheel wants.

I always lace with the label on the hub pointed directly to the valve hole (readable from left to right, or same as the matching rear hub); the label on the rim readable from the right side.

Whenever possible, on rims withous eyelets, I put M4 washer under every nipple. And fair amount of grease on the thread on every spoke.

And I always make sure that the valve is boxed the right way Wheel Building

Great thanks to Sheldon Brown, Jobst Brandt, Gerd Schraner, Roger Musson and John Barnet.
Nikola is offline  
Old 05-12-15, 09:27 AM
  #20  
AnkleWork
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Llano Estacado
Posts: 3,702

Bikes: old clunker

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 684 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 103 Times in 81 Posts
You should write a book.
AnkleWork is offline  
Old 05-12-15, 09:49 AM
  #21  
HillRider
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 33,617

Bikes: '96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '20 Surly Midnight Special, All are 3x10. It is hilly around here!

Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2001 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,047 Times in 712 Posts
Originally Posted by AnkleWork
You should write a book.
Apparently he did as he's posted this comment on several very old threads. This one is so old that Sheldon Brown himself is one of the previous contributors.
HillRider is offline  
Old 05-12-15, 10:04 AM
  #22  
AnkleWork
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Llano Estacado
Posts: 3,702

Bikes: old clunker

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 684 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 103 Times in 81 Posts
Originally Posted by HillRider
Apparently he did as he's posted this comment on several very old threads. This one is so old that Sheldon Brown himself is one of the previous contributors.
. . . a short, repetitive, redundant book.
AnkleWork is offline  
Old 05-12-15, 10:25 AM
  #23  
Kimmo 
bike whisperer
 
Kimmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Melbourne, Oz
Posts: 9,505

Bikes: https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=152015&p=1404231

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1506 Post(s)
Liked 704 Times in 499 Posts
Bumped from the grave!

Everyone, say hi to Sheldon's ghost. Hi Sheldon
Kimmo is offline  
Old 05-14-15, 01:04 AM
  #24  
Nikola
Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Macedonia
Posts: 39
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I posted on couple of threads so I could help other people on this subject.
Nikola is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.