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Junk chain removal tool or junk technique?

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Junk chain removal tool or junk technique?

Old 07-05-06, 01:03 PM
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cybrmarc
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Junk chain removal tool or junk technique?

Hey - I had a sticky link on my chain so I took it off to try to figure out how to make it not sticky. So I take it off, undo the sticky link, leaving a little of the chain pin coming through one "arm" of the link so I can just pop it back on and retighten and then bend to get it more flexible. Thing is...when I'm putting the pin back through and tightening it, it pushes the opposite link "arm" - bending it - on the first try it didn't even go through the arm, but I ended up almost breaking part of the link "arm" off. Figuring the chain is toast anyways, I start practicing on other links, and this happens every time to different degrees. Even if the pin does go through the last "arm"-hole, the arm gets pushed away, making the link much stiffer than before, and leaving a lot of flex in that last arm (in fact, it even looks like the pin could pop out of it it can bend so much).

I came inside and looked at one of the books I got from the library in the chain removal section, and I see that their chain removal tool has a much better set up for bracing the far arm while driving the pin through it. I could see on my tool sometimes that I was pushing the arm into the recess that on the book-picture tool was only big enough to hold the pin, but on my tool the arm will start to go inside.

My question is: is this only a matter of me having a junky chain remover (came with a 40-pc tool set), or am I perhaps using some shoddy technique?
thanks,
-marcus
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Old 07-05-06, 01:04 PM
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was just looking at park tool's website and noticed their chain pin remover is similar to mine - having a bigger hole at the opposite end of the driving pin where the arm can actually get pushed in....so there must be some way to avoid this? right? or are these just p.o.s. tools?
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Old 07-05-06, 01:05 PM
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right..the picture of the park tool (not the one i have but similar)

http://www.parktool.com/images_inc/repair_help/CT02.jpg
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Old 07-05-06, 01:22 PM
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I have no experience...
could it be that the pins are made to be pushed out the other direction?
could it be that your tool and your chain are incompatible?
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Old 07-05-06, 01:53 PM
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Looking at the above picture (the park tool one), move the chain further away from the part that pushes the pin. If the chain is sitting as far back, over the very last ridge and against the much thicker back portion, the pin cannot push the back side of the chain away. Once it's together, if it is too tight, move the chain back to where you originally had it and adjust again.

My apologies if that seems unclear. I haven't had my coffee yet, so things are a little scatterbrained right now. If i had pictures, i'd show you, and it would probably make more sense.
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Old 07-05-06, 02:55 PM
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Ya, like Herneka said. When putting the chain back together, place the chain such that the far plate is braced against the stop wall. From the Park pic link above, that would be the the part that is at the top of the picture farthest away from the pin, that has the half-round trench in it. That stop wall will prevent the plate from bending.

When you get the pin in you may not have it in just right and the link may be stiff. Some people bend the chain sideways by hand to loosen the link up. I usually use the first chain position (closest to the extraction/insertion pin)to slightly bend the sideplates apart. In your case you are using that first chain position and bending the sideplate too far.

Depending on your chain you might need a new pin. I think this only applies to some of the 10 speed chains. A pin can not be extracted and then reinserted, it must be replaced. As far as I know this does not apply to any of the 9spd or below chains.
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Old 07-05-06, 03:48 PM
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SRAM 7-speed chain

Actually, i totally busted this chain so I need a new one. Thinking about going with something fancy like an SRAM or nickel-plated chain. It says the SRAM only fits on Shimano, SRAM and Campy cassettes...but I have a freewheel (Shimano Dura Ace) will that work with an SRAM does anybody know?
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Old 07-05-06, 08:19 PM
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Yes, that chain will work fine. They just don't use the word freewheel anymore, so as to avoid confusion.

I also agree that technique was to blame here - I did the same thing on a couple of links, even broke a wal*mart brand chain tool before I figured out how to wedge the chain all the way against the opposite end of the chain pull from the part that pushes the pin in. That way you can get the pin seated without bending the link. Once you do that, move the chain back to the other set of braces on the tool and tighten about a quarter-turn to unstick the pin.
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Old 07-05-06, 11:58 PM
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Freewheels were all encompassing units. The cogs were mounted on the freewheel. The freewheel then screwed onto the hub, in clockwise rotation of course . I think the last freewheel was a 6 but maybe they made 7's.

Cassettes/freehubs have cogs and spacers are slid onto the splined bodies with the outer cog (lockring) being screwed on (clockwise again) as you likely know.

A big reason for the change was that as more gears were introduced to the rear more dishing was necessary to account for the space (and rear spacing was increased). The leverage applied to the axles was greater and the bearing support was getting further away. The freehub allowed for a bearing to be positioned further outboard. There may be other reasons but that is the one I recall.

You may indeed have a freewheel but not likely if you are looking to use a swanky modern chain .
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Old 07-06-06, 12:36 AM
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Very well put Masiman, thanks for clearing up the confusion i probably caused.

With the differences of freewheels and freehubs like you described, would there be problems in using various parts (chains, deraileurs, etc.) with one or the other? For example, do certain chains only work for freewheels or freehubs? I know every manufacturer says that you have to use their deraileurs with their cassettes with their chains with their etc., but has anyone mixed these up? What are your results? I know, i'm changing the topic, but just curious.
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Old 07-06-06, 01:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Herneka
Looking at the above picture (the park tool one), move the chain further away from the part that pushes the pin. If the chain is sitting as far back, over the very last ridge and against the much thicker back portion, the pin cannot push the back side of the chain away.
+1
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Old 07-06-06, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Herneka
With the differences of freewheels and freehubs like you described, would there be problems in using various parts (chains, deraileurs, etc.) with one or the other? For example, do certain chains only work for freewheels or freehubs? I know every manufacturer says that you have to use their deraileurs with their cassettes with their chains with their etc., but has anyone mixed these up? What are your results? I know, i'm changing the topic, but just curious.
I don't think you caused any confusion as nearly all bikes anymore are freehub/cassette. People pretty much assume it is cassette unless they see you on a classic bike. The various parts working together did not really become an issue until indexing started. Indexing means the derailleurs move in predefined steps, digital instead analog if you will. I don't know the hard and fast rule for matching chains to drivetrains, but the first step is to know the make and model of your cassette. You "should" use a chain designed for the width of the sprockets on your cassette. I have not heard and don't know if the chainrings are manufactured in different widths. After the width the manufacturers do some optimizations to the plates and the sprockets to aid shifting. There are some combinations that work better. But for my purposes I don't worry about the incremental gain I can get from that. Only if I have shifting problems would I look to what chain/cassette combination works best. I have not had shifting problems in years so I am not up on the latest "best" chain for my cassettes. Check out this thread: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=208579

As for mixing makers. That can get tricky. This will explain far better the nuances of that: http://www.hearingoffice.com/downloa...ion_screen.pdf

Mixing can work but will not be as exact as a ****genous drivetrain. For instance, my tandem is running a Shimano 8 speed cassette with Campy 9 speed brifters and Campy racing triple derailleur. It shifts fine for the recreational use it gets, but I have an extra stop! This stop is in between some gears. I don't know why I do not get more slightly off combinations, but I do not. I just accept that once in awhile in the lower gears (I think it is on the 2 or 3 sprocket) I will have a click that does not shift. Really not a problem since my stoker is typically 7 years old or a pregnant lady, lol. On my road frame, I would not accept that though. I am not racing much/not all anymore but I still like that bike to work smoothly, and it does. I still have 8 speed on that which looks to be getting harder to find parts for. I may have to do a drivetrain upgrade in another 5 years.

Last edited by masiman; 07-06-06 at 08:26 AM.
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Old 07-06-06, 09:26 AM
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When driving the chain rivet back through the hole in the side plate, it's a good idea to get it to the point of contact, then stop and confirm that it's lined up to come through the hole cleanly.

If it's not lined up well, then back off the tool a little, and flex the chain to get the chain rivet lined up with the hole. Then begin driving the rivet through the sideplate, and if it's showing excess resistance, STOP before you mushroom out the side plate. Back up, even drive the rivet the other way if it's cocked, and try again. I've mushroomed plenty of side plates in my time and it's usually my own negligence in this matter that's to blame.
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Old 07-06-06, 10:05 AM
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mechBgon - I'm pretty sure that's my problem. I was kind of forcing the pin through even when it would begin pushing the sideplate away. Strangely though...it seems that even if id get it lined up, it wouldn't want to go through the sideplate. I'm gonna go try again now. Practice makes perfect.

And I was using the furthest position on my pin removal tool. Not sure how I'd use any other position. I'll look into that.

And yes, it's a freewheel, I'm sure of that. I'm having fun trying to find old Shimano 600 Dura Ace freewheel removing connectors. The bike is a 70s or 80s Raleigh.

thanks guys - lets see how many links i'll have left on my practice chain, hehe
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