Older crank problem - solution?
07-10-06, 01:13 PM
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Older crank problem - solution?
Over the weekend I bought a bike for a co-worker that wants to start cycling, an older Univega Gran Tourismo. It has an older (obsolete) SR APEX triple crank with a BCD of 118. It seemed to drive ok when I tested it, but apparently I didn't ride it long enough or hard enough when checking it out. After cleaning, adjusting, and getting it ready to roll, the shakedown cruise revealed a serious issue.
The problem is that it seems the teeth on the outer chain ring are rounded over enough that when you get going pretty good and load the pedals, the chain slips and jumps over the teeth in a random (and sometimes painfull!!) fashion. It works ok on the stand, but under real world load it skips. I've checked the BB, the FD, and the alignment of the chain rings - nothing's bent or broken, and the FD has been R/R'ed with no success. I'm pretty positive the worn teeth on the outer chain ring is the culprit.
So, I have a question. Since I'm not having any luck finding a 118 BCD outer ring, and the original SR crank has an outer of 52 and a granny of 36 (36 being the smallest allowed on this BCD), I'm thinking of putting a mtb crank on. This has two advantages for me - 1) I can get my hands on an older mtb crank easily and cheaply (relative to an older triple road crank), and also the typical mtb crank has better gearing for the intended newbie - lesser top end and better low range.
So, the question - will a mtb crank work? I have a pile of mtb FD's at my disposal, so that's not an issue.
Secondary question - do any of you have an older road triple crank you can part with?
The problem is that it seems the teeth on the outer chain ring are rounded over enough that when you get going pretty good and load the pedals, the chain slips and jumps over the teeth in a random (and sometimes painfull!!) fashion. It works ok on the stand, but under real world load it skips. I've checked the BB, the FD, and the alignment of the chain rings - nothing's bent or broken, and the FD has been R/R'ed with no success. I'm pretty positive the worn teeth on the outer chain ring is the culprit.
So, I have a question. Since I'm not having any luck finding a 118 BCD outer ring, and the original SR crank has an outer of 52 and a granny of 36 (36 being the smallest allowed on this BCD), I'm thinking of putting a mtb crank on. This has two advantages for me - 1) I can get my hands on an older mtb crank easily and cheaply (relative to an older triple road crank), and also the typical mtb crank has better gearing for the intended newbie - lesser top end and better low range.
So, the question - will a mtb crank work? I have a pile of mtb FD's at my disposal, so that's not an issue.
Secondary question - do any of you have an older road triple crank you can part with?
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07-10-06, 01:34 PM
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I can think of two possible problems that would keep the MTB crankset from working. The first is is SR was using some abnormal taper on its BB axles. Odds are that is not a problem, but I have heard about unusual tapers making for crank incompatability (don't recall the context - sorry) but it seems to be rare and I've never encountered it personally.
Second, and more likely, is that the small chainring on the MTB cranskset may not clear the chainstay of the frame. If that is the case (and it very well may not be), the fix should be a BB with a longer axle, at least on the right side. A Univega, being Japanese, almost certainly has English BB threads, so using a modern BB ought to be no problemo.
So, was it hot enough for you in San Ramon this weekend?
Second, and more likely, is that the small chainring on the MTB cranskset may not clear the chainstay of the frame. If that is the case (and it very well may not be), the fix should be a BB with a longer axle, at least on the right side. A Univega, being Japanese, almost certainly has English BB threads, so using a modern BB ought to be no problemo.
So, was it hot enough for you in San Ramon this weekend?
07-10-06, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by genericbikedude
SR Apex's take a long spindle. you'll need to replace the BB.
I'm skeptical that the teeth are that worn. post pics.
I'm skeptical that the teeth are that worn. post pics.
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07-10-06, 02:05 PM
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I've got an Apex 52t chainring in very good shape, 118mm BCD. PM me if you're interested.
If you go the MTB crank route: the Apex crank, especially the triple, did take a very long BB axle. So you'll probably need a new BB to go with your crank. But it ain't because the Apex used a weird taper - the Apex used standard JIS taper, same as Shimano (Campy uses the smaller ISO taper, but those are the only two existing standards for square-taper cranks.)
If you go the MTB crank route: the Apex crank, especially the triple, did take a very long BB axle. So you'll probably need a new BB to go with your crank. But it ain't because the Apex used a weird taper - the Apex used standard JIS taper, same as Shimano (Campy uses the smaller ISO taper, but those are the only two existing standards for square-taper cranks.)
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07-10-06, 02:06 PM
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older mtb cranks usually take a long spindle as well, so the chainline may not be bad at all. you might have to take a link of chain out. but like generic said, it's highly unlike that a 52 is worn out enough for the chain to skip on the chainring. if it's that worn, the freewheel and chain are surely toast as well.
07-10-06, 02:18 PM
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I had this problem before too, and also thought that the slipping was due to rounded teeth on the crankset. When replacing the chainrings didn't help, I found that I had a worn cassette paired with a new chain. It was the cogs in back which were slipping.
I doubt it is your crank which is slipping under load. There are so many teeth engaged with the chain on the chainwheel, and the chainwheel has so much mechanical leverage, that it would take a lot of force to get it to slip; under that much force, you would probably simply taco the chainring instead of making it slip. That's why chainrings can be made out of aluminum, instead of steel or Ti like the cogs in back. In your case, the teeth are probably rounded because of years of shifting, but the rounded teeth will only affect shifting performance, not engagement with the chain.
Change the cogset and chain. That will probably fix the problem.
I doubt it is your crank which is slipping under load. There are so many teeth engaged with the chain on the chainwheel, and the chainwheel has so much mechanical leverage, that it would take a lot of force to get it to slip; under that much force, you would probably simply taco the chainring instead of making it slip. That's why chainrings can be made out of aluminum, instead of steel or Ti like the cogs in back. In your case, the teeth are probably rounded because of years of shifting, but the rounded teeth will only affect shifting performance, not engagement with the chain.
Change the cogset and chain. That will probably fix the problem.
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07-10-06, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
I doubt it is your crank which is slipping under load. There are so many teeth engaged with the chain on the chainwheel, and the chainwheel has so much mechanical leverage, that it would take a lot of force to get it to slip; under that much force, you would probably simply taco the chainring instead of making it slip. That's why chainrings can be made out of aluminum, instead of steel or Ti like the cogs in back. In your case, the teeth are probably rounded because of years of shifting, but the rounded teeth will only affect shifting performance, not engagement with the chain.
Change the cogset and chain. That will probably fix the problem.
I measured the chain last night, and it is EXACTLY 1 inch center-to-center on the link pins as per Sheldon's web page, so it looks good - or at least it doesn't appear stretched. I'll check the freewheel when I get home, and report back.
Question - could the pawls on the freewheel be the culprit? The chain only slips when on the large freewheel.....
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07-10-06, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by bikingshearer
So, was it hot enough for you in San Ramon this weekend?
Good Lord - I went for a ride Sunday mid-morning. I got 30 miles in, but I thought I was going to melt....
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07-10-06, 09:20 PM
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OK - I got home today and tried first a new freewheel and then a new chain. With either or both, the problem persists. Under load, and ONLY on the top chain ring, the chain skips and slips.
Photo's attached - tell me what you think.
Middle ring, good teeth:
Outer ring, worn teeth:
Photo's attached - tell me what you think.
Middle ring, good teeth:
Outer ring, worn teeth:
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Last edited by bigbossman; 07-10-06 at 09:49 PM.
07-10-06, 10:49 PM
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When you mentioned that the chain only slips when you're in the larger freewheel, does that mean you're in the large rear cog? Maybe cross-chaining large-to-large, which isn't good, might be the culprit. The worn chainring teeth probably make the chain easier to come off when radically cross-chained.
07-11-06, 09:43 AM
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Did you try flipping the offending chainring over? The other side of the teeth, while not perfectly healthy, appear to have a little more meat to them. I would 180 the ring and try riding using the other side of the teeth. If this works, it would allow you to get around needing a new ring right away.
07-11-06, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by genericbikedude
I would replace that chainring, but I would also make sure that you properly mate your chain and freewheel cogs.
Originally Posted by MacG
Did you try flipping the offending chainring over? The other side of the teeth, while not perfectly healthy, appear to have a little more meat to them. I would 180 the ring and try riding using the other side of the teeth. If this works, it would allow you to get around needing a new ring right away.
I sure hope this fixes the problem, cuz I'm fresh out of ideas......
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Last edited by bigbossman; 07-11-06 at 10:43 AM.
07-11-06, 10:41 AM
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Wow, where to start....
If your chain wore enough to ruin the large chainring.
You now need a new chain, chainring, AND a rear cogset/freewheel and more than likely two jockey wheels for the RD.
If your chain wore enough to ruin the large chainring.
You now need a new chain, chainring, AND a rear cogset/freewheel and more than likely two jockey wheels for the RD.
07-11-06, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by powers2b
Wow, where to start....
If your chain wore enough to ruin the large chainring.
You now need a new chain, chainring, AND a rear cogset/freewheel and more than likely two jockey wheels for the RD.
If your chain wore enough to ruin the large chainring.
You now need a new chain, chainring, AND a rear cogset/freewheel and more than likely two jockey wheels for the RD.
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07-11-06, 11:08 AM
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Going with the cogset idea again, what causes the skipping is a new chain running on a worn cogset. Sometimes the wear on a cogset is not obvious.
The teeth on the big ring are worn and that might be the problem as well. Are the teeth that worn all the way around, or just in two spots opposite each other on the chainwheel? If it is in two spots opposite to each other, it is similar wear to what I saw on my old bike and it would be a problem with the cogset, not the chainwheel. The wear pattern like this would be caused by shifting. If the wear is even all the way around, then the chainwheel is worn out and should be replaced.
As for the replacement chainring, try Harris Cyclery. He's on the internet and sells eclectic parts you cannot find elsewhere. As far as the mountain bike or old road bike crankset goes, just go to the bike shop and ask them to size a bottom bracket for you. Generally, for a triple, the middle chainring is in line with the midpoint of the cogset. Anything that fits can be used and bottom brackets are made in several different length axles. Moreover, I don't think alignment is absolutely critical for a multigear setup. It's not like this is a fixed gear or single speed and the chainline needs to be perfect.
The teeth on the big ring are worn and that might be the problem as well. Are the teeth that worn all the way around, or just in two spots opposite each other on the chainwheel? If it is in two spots opposite to each other, it is similar wear to what I saw on my old bike and it would be a problem with the cogset, not the chainwheel. The wear pattern like this would be caused by shifting. If the wear is even all the way around, then the chainwheel is worn out and should be replaced.
As for the replacement chainring, try Harris Cyclery. He's on the internet and sells eclectic parts you cannot find elsewhere. As far as the mountain bike or old road bike crankset goes, just go to the bike shop and ask them to size a bottom bracket for you. Generally, for a triple, the middle chainring is in line with the midpoint of the cogset. Anything that fits can be used and bottom brackets are made in several different length axles. Moreover, I don't think alignment is absolutely critical for a multigear setup. It's not like this is a fixed gear or single speed and the chainline needs to be perfect.
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07-11-06, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
Going with the cogset idea again, what causes the skipping is a new chain running on a worn cogset. Sometimes the wear on a cogset is not obvious.
The teeth on the big ring are worn and that might be the problem as well. Are the teeth that worn all the way around, or just in two spots opposite each other on the chainwheel? If it is in two spots opposite to each other, it is similar wear to what I saw on my old bike and it would be a problem with the cogset, not the chainwheel. The wear pattern like this would be caused by shifting. If the wear is even all the way around, then the chainwheel is worn out and should be replaced.
The teeth on the big ring are worn and that might be the problem as well. Are the teeth that worn all the way around, or just in two spots opposite each other on the chainwheel? If it is in two spots opposite to each other, it is similar wear to what I saw on my old bike and it would be a problem with the cogset, not the chainwheel. The wear pattern like this would be caused by shifting. If the wear is even all the way around, then the chainwheel is worn out and should be replaced.
The big chain ring is worn badly all the way around - good question, though......
I honestly can't figure out what the previous owner wuld have done to wear it so badly, and leave the other rings in good shape. I mean, geez - it's a 52t ring for pete's sake. The guy must have been a gorilla!!
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07-11-06, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by bigbossman
Thanks - got it. I mentioned a few posts back that I replaced both the freewheel and the chain and the problem persists. The only thing left (as far as I can tell) is the chain ring. Also, if the freewheel/chain were worn, would it not exhibit symptoms on the other chain rings as well? It does not - the problem only happens with a big ring/any rear ring combo.
The big chain ring is worn badly all the way around - good question, though......
I honestly can't figure out what the previous owner wuld have done to wear it so badly, and leave the other rings in good shape. I mean, geez - it's a 52t ring for pete's sake. The guy must have been a gorilla!!
I honestly can't figure out what the previous owner wuld have done to wear it so badly, and leave the other rings in good shape. I mean, geez - it's a 52t ring for pete's sake. The guy must have been a gorilla!!
Good luck on finding a new chainring or mating a new crankset to your bike!
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07-11-06, 02:08 PM
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Sounds like it is the chainring then. Could be that a big guy who liked to mash rode on the chainring until it was worn out.
07-11-06, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
Sounds like it is the chainring then. Could be that a big guy who liked to mash rode on the chainring until it was worn out. I've heard of chainrings wearing out; just not of chains slipping on them. Maybe that's why the guy sold it...
Good luck on finding a new chainring or mating a new crankset to your bike!
Good luck on finding a new chainring or mating a new crankset to your bike!
I have a big ring on the way to me, so I'll know shortly whether that is indeed the culprit. If it does not solve the problem, I don't know what else to do.........short of stripping the bike for parts to be done with it. It has turned into the bike from hell.
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07-11-06, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by bigbossman
I honestly can't figure out what the previous owner wuld have done to wear it so badly, and leave the other rings in good shape. I mean, geez - it's a 52t ring for pete's sake. The guy must have been a gorilla!!
As for this becoming the Bike From Hell - always remember that no good deed goes unpunished. Ever.
BTW, I was out not too far from your home stomping grounds, i.e. Camino Tassajara/Highland/Collier Canyon, Saturday a.m. (the day before we lost a brother cyclist at the intersection of Collier and Highland
). I'm glad I quit by noon - it got nasty hot later on. Geez, you'd think it was July or something . . . .
07-11-06, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by bikingshearer
My guess - he replaced the chain and cogset several times and never replaced the chainwheel because, as we all know, 52 tooth chainwheels don't wear out.
As for this becoming the Bike From Hell - always remember that no good deed goes unpunished. Ever.
BTW, I was out not too far from your home stomping grounds, i.e. Camino Tassajara/Highland/Collier Canyon, Saturday a.m. (the day before we lost a brother cyclist at the intersection of Collier and Highland ). I'm glad I quit by noon - it got nasty hot later on. Geez, you'd think it was July or something . . . .
As for this becoming the Bike From Hell - always remember that no good deed goes unpunished. Ever.
BTW, I was out not too far from your home stomping grounds, i.e. Camino Tassajara/Highland/Collier Canyon, Saturday a.m. (the day before we lost a brother cyclist at the intersection of Collier and Highland
). I'm glad I quit by noon - it got nasty hot later on. Geez, you'd think it was July or something . . . .Someone DIED at Collier and Highland?!?! WTF? I go though there all the time! It's never struck me as a particularly dangerous place, but then again if it happened Friday there is a fair bit of commute traffic going though there. Especially on a Friday cuz the freeway is so jammed. On Saturday it is downright bucolic.
Can you PM me the details?
Oh, and the heat..... 100 degrees on Saturday AND Sunday, and 30 degrees cooler Monday and Tuesday. What the hell?
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07-12-06, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by bigbossman
Can you PM me the details?
Originally Posted by bigbossman
Oh, and the heat..... 100 degrees on Saturday AND Sunday, and 30 degrees cooler Monday and Tuesday. What the hell?
